ride the bus? nope

**gopher** · October-17-09, 02:28 AM

I wanted to know how long it would take for me to ride the bus to work downtown and back. Google maps has a public transportation route planner which is cool. Driving by car, its 22 miles approx 30 minutes 1 way.
if i had to take the bus... First i have to walk almost a mile to the closet bus stop. Then its 3 different buses to downtown, each with a wait up to a half hour between stops. then walking again a few block to the destination. Google estimates it would take 2 hours 6 minutes for the entire trip. 126 minutes to travel 22 miles. that averages out to 10.5 miles per hour! in reality rush hour it would probably be double the wait times with all the delays and stops. You could probably ride your bicycle to work FASTER than the bus! would be a good race. anyway that's it have a nice night.

**ASR89** · October-17-09, 04:59 AM

Out of curiosity, where are you starting at? I can see what you mean though. The bus is definitely not for everyone. The only way public transit could be faster than driving would be if the trains / buses had exclusive right-of-way and limited stops. Also, like you were saying, bus routes don't serve all areas.

I could see park-and-ride lots working someday if they put rapid transit on certain corridors like Woodward, Gratiot, Michigan Avenue, etc. There will be people who will say, "If I'm already in my car, I may as well stay in my car and drive the whole way." However, if you time getting to a stop correctly, it could be about the same time driving vs transit. Then there are other factors like not having to worry about traffic jams and parking. But right now, the buses co-mingle with traffic so there really isn't much benefit to riding if you can drive. Eh, maybe less gas cost and car maintenance.

**ggores** · October-17-09, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by gopher

First i have to walk almost a mile to the closet bus stop. Then its 3 different buses to downtown, each with a wait up to a half hour between stops. then walking again a few block to the destination. Google estimates it would

So exactly what is the problem? Valuable time? Have mercy.

**Todd_Scott** · October-17-09, 08:01 AM

On average, that driving costs about $10.60 more than the bus for each trip. How much time do you have to work to pay for that cost with after-tax dollars?

**dcmorrison12** · October-17-09, 08:23 AM

This should be a wake up call for you to start living more sustainably. It's important to live close to where you work, and in areas where public transit is convenient and nearby [[such as the city).

The viability of our future depends on people living by using less, and living sustainably.

Stosh · October-17-09, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by dcmorrison12

This should be a wake up call for you to start living more sustainably. It's important to live close to where you work, and in areas where public transit is convenient and nearby [[such as the city).

The viability of our future depends on people living by using less, and living sustainably.

Fantastic. That means I get to move closer to Troy.

**gazhekwe** · October-17-09, 08:26 AM

I can see his point, though. Suppose you have to be at work at 8:00 a.m. That means you have to leave your house by 5:30 a.m. to get to work on time. Then, you get home at 7:30 p.m. It doesn't leave you a lot of home time. I guess you could read or sleep on the bus, but you have to be sort of awake to make your transfers.

**iheartthed** · October-17-09, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

I can see his point, though. Suppose you have to be at work at 8:00 a.m. That means you have to leave your house by 5:30 a.m. to get to work on time. Then, you get home at 7:30 p.m. It doesn't leave you a lot of home time. I guess you could read or sleep on the bus, but you have to be sort of awake to make your transfers.

So is he asking for more reliable bus service? Or is he trying to justify his driving to work everyday instead of taking a bus?

DC48080 · October-17-09, 10:20 AM

Even if there was a decent public transit system in this area many people would still choose to drive their own car for the convenience and flexibility it offers.

Why would I want to stand outside in inclement weather waiting for a bus that may not be on time thereby making me late for work?

What do you do if you need to stop off on the way home for groceries or other errands?

What do you do if your work day entails you calling on clients away from the office? Not very impressive if you take a client out to lunch on the bus.

Bottom line, public transit is not a viable option for a large number of people despite using politically correct buzzwords like "sustainable" to make it sound so.

Fortunately in this country we do have a choice. And I along with the majority of the residents in this area choose to use my own automobile, which I find to be very "sustainable" indeed!

**softailrider** · October-17-09, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

Even if there was a decent public transit system in this area many people would still choose to drive their own car for the convenience and flexibility it offers.

Why would I want to stand outside in inclement weather waiting for a bus that may not be on time thereby making me late for work?

What do you do if you need to stop off on the way home for groceries or other errands?

What do you do if your work day entails you calling on clients away from the office? Not very impressive if you take a client out to lunch on the bus.

Bottom line, public transit is not a viable option for a large number of people despite using politically correct buzzwords like "sustainable" to make it sound so.

Fortunately in this country we do have a choice. And I along with the majority of the residents in this area choose to use my own automobile, which I find to be very "sustainable" indeed!

I agree with every word in the above 6 paragraphs, I like driving my own car to work- ALONE. If I want to stop for coffee or breakfast or to play nine holes of golf before work nobodys going to stop me. I'll give up driving my own car to work when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers.

**EMG** · October-17-09, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

I like driving my own car to work- ALONE.

That "alone" is another very important consideration as well, which until now hasn't been mentioned. Especially for people who, between spouses, children, pets, cell phones, email, work and social obligations never would otherwise have a moment's peace, the commute - where all communication with the outside world is - or should be - verbotten - might very well be the last bastion of undisturbed, personal private time - and not by any means something with which to be trifled lightly.

Some of us would DIE if we had to go directly from the demands of work to the demands of home without that interlude of freedom during which to unwind.

**wolverine** · October-17-09, 10:22 AM

He's trying to make a point that doesn't really matter. Not everyone is accessible to convenient bus service and in almost all cases its faster to drive, and yes even bike it. I live off 13 express route buses, but because they stop every 2 blocks, I get to work by walking faster! It only just depends where you are in relation to the route or the frequency of arrivals, and the number of stops.

Typically, when choosing a location in an urban area, people make a decision whether they will drive or take public transportation. Obviously gopher's initial decision was to drive. I don't even think public transportation was ever considered, so I'm not sure why he or she are interested in figuring it out now.

Someone posting out in a cornfield could formulate a similar argument that transit is difficult to get to.

**EMG** · October-17-09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by gopher

You could probably ride your bicycle to work FASTER than the bus! would be a good race.

You've got that right. I am fortunate enough to live only 2 miles from work and I DO ride my bicycle to and from work - and it is nothing unusual for me to 'beat the bus' to work - I ride right along side it and unlike the bus I don't stop and I even have an underpass that lets me "ignore" the red light! I'd spend more time at the stop waiting for the bus than I spend in my whole 11 minute biking commute.

Even so, yes, there's no comparison. I haven't ridden a bus since 1979 and I don't intend to start again any time soon. Too much waiting and too inconvenient. And by the way, the statistics about costs of car ownership vs costs of bus riding are usually grossly and falsely slanted anyway because the costs are added up in different ways depending on who's making the argument. The green-earth-let's-all-save-the-whales-by-riding-the-bus type says cars are more expensive, but does he mention the cost in taxes of supporting the bus system, in addition to the ticket fees incurred per ride? Usually not. He also loves to create a "shock and awe" car cost figure by rolling in and prorating things like the cost of the vehicle and the insurance costs, but never mentions that those costs would be incurred anyway by the person who needs a car to take vacations, visit relatives, and do other things that require going places where buses will never go, and that therefore those costs are NOT saved by eliminating merely the Monday through Friday commute. And from a practicality standpoint, does he EVER mention the fact that it's not possible to do the grocery shopping without having the ice cream melt before the bus ever arrives at the stop? DEFINITELY not.

I'll give up my car the day the tree-huggers pry the keys from my cold, dead fingers.

**dcmorrison12** · October-17-09, 11:08 AM

There was more to my post than simply riding the bus or public transportation.

The other point of my post was to live closer to where you work, therefore you can walk or bike to work, or you could simply take a SHORT bus ride. This leaves you even more time to run errands than if you drove 30 -60 minutes one way to work.

The suburbs will become less of an option in the future - the country won't be able to support the idea, the upkeep or the cost of living in "dumb growth" or "sprawl."

What we really need to do is to live in TOD's. Transit Oriented Development. These are neighborhoods which are situated around a transit station [[Rail). You have everything you need within walking distance - groceries, school, day care, work, entertainment, restaurants. Anything else you need would be a quick train ride. This is the future, because Sprawl is unsustainable.

Metro Detroit is a tough place to live without a car, and hopefully sometime in the future, this will change - drastically. Or else, Metro Detroit will be a ghost town.

It's a fact that we have reached, or are on the doorstep of reaching "peak oil" - Meaning we have used 50% of the world supply of oil. After 50% is gone, the price begins to skyrocket - to prices un heard of. Living live the way Americans live will be a distant memory. Everyone will be living by using less, and living in a way where it makes economical and ecological sense.

**EMG** · October-17-09, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by dcmorrison12

It's a fact that we have reached, or are on the doorstep of reaching "peak oil" - Meaning we have used 50% of the world supply of oil. After 50% is gone, the price begins to skyrocket - to prices un heard of. Living live the way Americans live will be a distant memory. Everyone will be living by using less, and living in a way where it makes economical and ecological sense.

[[Cue sad violins...)

I have heard that story before, oh, let's see when was it, yes, right, in about 1973. I actually remember watching, in the early 70's, a liberal-conspiracy TV show that claimed 1979 was going to mark the end of the automobile - complete with filmed footage of the cars being crunched for the junkyard. Didn't believe it then, don't believe it now.

The solution is: DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW. Geese and environmentalists be damned.

[[No, I'm not completely that ignorant or that simplistic. I know the supply is finite. But on the other hand, the end of the world as we know it is NOT going to occur in our lifetime as some would like to scare us into believing. The end will be a whimper, not a bang).

DC48080 · October-17-09, 11:30 AM

I live about a 10 minute drive from where I work. I still am not at all interested in taking public transit to get to and from work for the very reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

And for those who have a 30 to 60 minute commute, that is their choice and I will support their right to make said choice. I however, would not want to spend that much time on the road every day be it in a car, train, bus or whatever.

Rail is a very 19th century mode of transit and is quite obsolete in this area in this day and age. Sure it works in New York City and Chicago, but there are millions more people living in each of those towns than even lived in Detroit in it's heyday 50 years ago.

The idea of dcmorrison12's so called "TODs" is a nice dream but cannot be "sustainable" in the reality of the business world. Nobody is going to invest money to open stores, restaurants, and entertainment venues that cater primarily to folks who live within walking distance. There would not be enough profit to "sustain" the business. And there would have to be duplicate businesses every mile or so because most folks won't walk more than a half mile to get to said businesses. And what about the disabled or the senior citizens? They certainly aren't going to walk to the grocery store and lug heavy grocery bags back home.

I've said it before, if a good business case could be made for public transit we would have it here. Let's face it, this is Detroit, not Chicago or NYC. As much as some would like it to be [[and I would too), it is not. Adding more bus and rail lines will not suddenly cause an influx of people moving into Detroit. We need to clean up the schools, neighborhoods, crime and myriad other problems before we worry about building rail and bus systems that virtually nobody will use.

I'm not trying to sound negative and I am not trying to bash Detroit. I am merely looking at the reality of the situation. I lost my rose colored glasses a while ago. I now see clearly.

**FlyingJ** · October-17-09, 01:11 PM

dcmorrison, nobody's really sure on that Peak Oil thing-a friend who worked @ GM was saying they thought internally there was a 500-year stream of Texas Tea, never said how they reached that conclusion, then there's Alberta[[why not Montana?) oil sands & all that
http://www.billingsgazette.com/busin...cc4c002e0.html

If you look @ car ownership in the Top 10 cities,the Top 3 is L.A., Chicago, THEN Detroit-that makes no sense but this is a company town

The bus system in Detroit isn't functional. You couldn't even find a schedule online. I was appalled to run into a couple guys with 3rd Shift warehouse jobs in Troy @ a DOT bus shelter on Woodward whose bus was over an hour late & they knew they wouldn't make their transfer

**gopher** · October-17-09, 01:35 PM

hey guys good replies. I was just trying to make a specific example how unfeasable the bus option can be for some. Personally im SICK of driving to work every day i wish we had a system that worked. I just got back from Toronto and was fascinated by the transportation system there, i send 1/2 my time exploring the subway, PATH, and trolly cars, its really neat. I live in sterling heights. I considerd moving close to work, but i dont think so. If i call the cops here they are on the scene in minutes, guaranteed. Detroit ? haha you know the story. I work midnights so im not going to leave my wife home all night in the wild. I would like to see a rail connecting mt clemens and pontiac to downtown.

**EastsideAl** · October-17-09, 02:07 PM

Toronto is an excellent example of how an area that cares about such things can have a workable and highly patronized public transit system, even in a cold weather city. Hell, Chicago has colder weather than Detroit most winters and has a much more extensive and well-used transit system than we have here, as does Minneapolis-St. Paul. The continuing division in our regional transit, lack of reasonable transit options for much of the area, reluctance to take even tiny steps towards a wider less bus-dependent network, and consistent move away from workplace centralization, shows what an abysmally low priority transit and transit-friendly development is around here. We've been outclassed by every other metropolitan area anywhere near our size in the country.

**stasu1213** · October-17-09, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

I live about a 10 minute drive from where I work. I still am not at all interested in taking public transit to get to and from work for the very reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

And for those who have a 30 to 60 minute commute, that is their choice and I will support their right to make said choice. I however, would not want to spend that much time on the road every day be it in a car, train, bus or whatever.

Rail is a very 19th century mode of transit and is quite obsolete in this area in this day and age. Sure it works in New York City and Chicago, but there are millions more people living in each of those towns than even lived in Detroit in it's heyday 50 years ago.

The idea of dcmorrison12's so called "TODs" is a nice dream but cannot be "sustainable" in the reality of the business world. Nobody is going to invest money to open stores, restaurants, and entertainment venues that cater primarily to folks who live within walking distance. There would not be enough profit to "sustain" the business. And there would have to be duplicate businesses every mile or so because most folks won't walk more than a half mile to get to said businesses. And what about the disabled or the senior citizens? They certainly aren't going to walk to the grocery store and lug heavy grocery bags back home.

I've said it before, if a good business case could be made for public transit we would have it here. Let's face it, this is Detroit, not Chicago or NYC. As much as some would like it to be [[and I would too), it is not. Adding more bus and rail lines will not suddenly cause an influx of people moving into Detroit. We need to clean up the schools, neighborhoods, crime and myriad other problems before we worry about building rail and bus systems that virtually nobody will use.

I'm not trying to sound negative and I am not trying to bash Detroit. I am merely looking at the reality of the situation. I lost my rose colored glasses a while ago. I now see clearly.

Maybe the attitude of "This is Detroit" has gotten this city in the perdicament that it is in now. Years ago this city had neighborhood markets and a business district every so many miles. Curtis/Wyoming. Warren/Conners, Van Dyke/Harper. Mack/7. Livernois/7, Greenfield/Grand River, Gratiot/7. Each area had their own anchor store and supportive stores with it. You didnt have to drive far to Joy/Grand River if you lived on Seebalt. That is what made Detroit grand. The buses ran better and each neighborhood had their own supermarket. One may had A&P. The other had Great Scott. When you didn't like the one in the area then you travelled to the other one. They were still off a bus line and they had parking lots for those to drive.Detroit had catered to her residents back then. Now Detroit is not catering to anyone but a one night stand at a sports bar for us suburbanites

DC48080 · October-18-09, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Maybe the attitude of "This is Detroit" has gotten this city in the perdicament that it is in now. Years ago this city had neighborhood markets and a business district every so many miles. Curtis/Wyoming. Warren/Conners, Van Dyke/Harper. Mack/7. Livernois/7, Greenfield/Grand River, Gratiot/7. Each area had their own anchor store and supportive stores with it. You didnt have to drive far to Joy/Grand River if you lived on Seebalt. That is what made Detroit grand. The buses ran better and each neighborhood had their own supermarket. One may had A&P. The other had Great Scott. When you didn't like the one in the area then you travelled to the other one. They were still off a bus line and they had parking lots for those to drive.Detroit had catered to her residents back then. Now Detroit is not catering to anyone but a one night stand at a sports bar for us suburbanites

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

Nobody is going to open up stores on that scale again as long as the out of control crime problem is still around. It is far too expensive to do business in Detroit with the high taxes, insurance costs, theft etc. Plain and simple: Business goes where the profit is. If the costs and risks outweigh the potential for profit no business will come. Business are not charities, they exist to make a profit for their owners/shareholders.

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would. All these fantasies of better public transit just will not work in today's Detroit. "If you build it they will come" simply does not apply in this case.

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

Bearinabox · October-18-09, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

That explanation makes no sense. Different parts of the city have different levels of abandonment, but the condition of the neighborhood shopping districts is almost uniformly awful, even when the adjacent neighborhoods have fairly stable middle-class populations. If the primary means of transportation for people who lived in those neighborhoods were something other than private cars, it would make sense for them to shop within walking distance of where they lived, and parking wouldn't be an issue. If people are used to driving to get everywhere they go, they will gravitate toward large stores with large parking lots where they can get everything they need in one trip, even if it means shopping far from where they live.

**stasu1213** · October-18-09, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

Nobody is going to open up stores on that scale again as long as the out of control crime problem is still around. It is far too expensive to do business in Detroit with the high taxes, insurance costs, theft etc. Plain and simple: Business goes where the profit is. If the costs and risks outweigh the potential for profit no business will come. Business are not charities, they exist to make a profit for their owners/shareholders.

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would. All these fantasies of better public transit just will not work in today's Detroit. "If you build it they will come" simply does not apply in this case.

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

In yesteryear people didn't have to get on the bus to go to the grocery store. People just went to the one that was within walking distance from them. If you lived on East Jefferson in the 60's you haved Great Scotts in one area to serve the people in that area and a few blocks down there were an A&P to serve the people in that area. On Gratiot there were a A&P on Crane to serve the people in that area. There was a Lauris Bros on Van Dyke and Gratiot to serve the people in that area. People had pulling baskets to bring their groceries home if there were many bags.

**Fury13** · October-19-09, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by DC48080

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would...

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

I agree with your stated priorities. Simply infusing mass transit into Detroit will not magically, instantly make it a great place to live and raise families.

Interesting what you said about using transit when grocery-shopping, though. Generally, residents in NYC or Chicago shop for groceries the old-fashioned way: they buy a couple of small bags at a time [[which aren't difficult to bring on the subway or bus). They're getting fresh food every few days, and making more frequent trips to the corner grocer. That's how it's done. These folks are not going to Costco or Wal-Mart and getting a month's worth of stuff at a time.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-19-09, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Fury13

I agree with your stated priorities. Simply infusing mass transit into Detroit will not magically, instantly make it a great place to live and raise families.

Interesting what you said about using transit when grocery-shopping, though. Generally, residents in NYC or Chicago shop for groceries the old-fashioned way: they buy a couple of small bags at a time [[which aren't difficult to bring on the subway or bus). They're getting fresh food every few days, and making more frequent trips to the corner grocer. That's how it's done. These folks are not going to Costco or Wal-Mart and getting a month's worth of stuff at a time.

And, dare I say, those cities still have grocery stores with *gasp* parking lots for those who wish to drive! As Yakov Smirnov would say, "What a country!"

When I lived in DC, I had no problem walking six blocks and putting 2 weeks worth of groceries in my grandma cart. That, or you just pick up a couple things on the way home from work, or you walk to the farmers market. Horribly pleasant and inconvenient, I know. It would have been far more preferable to have to slug 10 miles each way through traffic to pick up a gallon of milk. :-)