Noan Finley says, "Legalize Drugs"

[Bigb23]

Crumbled pavement, how do you rename you're link ? I never had a problem on the old forum, but the BB seems to be a bitch on here.

[Gannon]

That Canadian study only proves that impulse-challenged individuals have trouble driving, which is almost a proven without any form of extra-curricular studies.

So they admit to smoking weed occasionally, also. H-m-m-n-n.

I'd say it was an expensive study that proved that some individuals simply cannot handle impulses, regardless the distraction.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Crumbled pavement, how do you rename you're link ? I never had a problem on the old forum, but the BB seems to be a bitch on here.

Simple. Just type URL="http://www.link.com" in between brackets. Type the display name and then type /URL in betwen brackets. Example below:

[URL="http://www.detroitnews.com"]Detroit News[/URL] 

Or just quote my last post and look at the code I used.

[DetroitDad]

A positive story about the benefits of marijuana on society:
Positve Story

I agree that you shouldn't drive under the influence of narcotics, and no one should be saying there are no risks involved in any drug. But compounding the negative effects on society by making drugs illegal is not helping anyone.

[Bloomfield Pills]

A positive story about the benefits of marijuana on society:
Positve Story

Hey, you know what causes more accidents than anything? Drowsy driving?

So why don't we legalize marijuana and outlaw companies that make their employees work 70 hours a week? You'd save a lot more lives that way. And, of course, drinking kills far, far more people than weed smoking. Are you advocating for the criminalization of alcohol?

Listen, I'm always open to hear others' opinions on issues, and sometimes I'll hear valid points from someone who holds an opposite viewpoint than me on various topics. I can see other people's points on issues such as abortion, capital punishment, global warming, etc. I may not necessarily agree with them, but I can understand that, intellectually, they have valid points.

But I have yet to hear one good reason for keeping marijuana illegal. Not a one. There's simply no logic in criminalizing a flower.

[1KielsonDrive]

I suspected it all along - Finley's on drugs. Well, I guess if that's what it takes to bring some type of reason to this ridiculous drug war, then I'll support Finley's idea. Not that it's new or original or anything.

[Roq]

I'm gonna go spark one up in Finley's honor right now.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "But I have yet to hear one good reason for keeping marijuana illegal."

Nor has there been one good reason to legalize it. Just trumped up numbers. I posted a document issued by the government stating the real deal on incarcerated "drug offenders" and all it received was questions of it's integrity. Most of those people are in jail because of other offenses. Assault etc.

Some of you are convinced, the state and fed are making large amounts of revenue off of illegal drug fines etc. The truth be known, it's costing us all tons of money to enforce those laws, build prisons and all the other bullshit that goes along with it. The problem is the laws are not strict enough or enforced properly. Any drug dealer will tell you going to jail is just part of doing business. If they received 30 years mandatory for dealing first offense, they would have a different take on it. Three strikes? What a joke, that just implies they can get caught twice.

Denmark has very lenient penalties for rape. Rapes are very commonplace there.

[Blarf]

Nor has there been one good reason to legalize it.

Than why were alcohol and tobacco legalized?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Than why were alcohol and tobacco legalized?"

The same reasons guns are legal. Think you'd get them legalized today if they were not?

[Blarf]

Quote: "Than why were alcohol and tobacco legalized?"

The same reasons guns are legal. Think you'd get them legalized today if they were not?

Alcohol and tobacco are legalized because of the second amendment?

[Sstashmoo]

Grandfathered in.

[Dbest]

Nobody is asking a huge question that needs be answered, so I will.

"Does legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana lead to higher rates of kid/teen use?"

According to research conducted in the United States[[California) and Amsterdam, the number of users under the age of 18 has seen a steady decline. I was waiting for someone to use this tired old excuse.

Amsterdam is an interesting place, there is a no-tolerance attitude taken regarding the selling of hard drugs such as Cocaine and Heroin. If you were to overdose after ingesting too much of a hard drug and had to be treated in a hospital as a U.S. tourist you would face no legal trouble, but would be asked to leave.

Shrooms are frowned upon to a certain extent but are readily available in many shops. Many tourists try shrooms there for the first time I guess. The problem being they don't "feel anything yet" and are compelled to eat more. Mistake. LOL

Amsterdam has contact and or treats over 55% of their hard core drug addicts.They have these Red Cross type mobile health clinics that travel to areas most synonymous for hard core use. I thought I remember methadone first being used there? They also have stiff penalties for drug related crimes. If a known addict gets caught stealing multiple times hes sent to prison for awhile. As for California, if Michigan's medical marijuana laws are setup similar at all, HELLO POT-SHOPS and HELLO TOURISTS! Proposition 1 showed how people in the state feel, too bad I'm stuck in Indiana.

[chitaku]

No Deaths from Marijuana says a lot about the drug. However it will always have a hard time becoming legal because corporations run this country. Pharmaceutical companies, alcohol companies and cigarette companies lobby constantly for marijuana and other drugs to stay illegal. Any option for a vice other than their product is considered a threat to them.

Legalize it

[Big Dog]

Dbest, Michigan law does not allow pot shops. In fact, you have to break the law and buy it on the street to have it, or grow it at home. It appears that MI. is treating medical mj as a criminal drug, even though it won by a majority vote. Someone will have to challenge the state in regards to having to break the law to buy it, in order to comply with the new law to use it.. The MI. legislature did not think the law would pass and did not even develop a plan. After the law passed, they rushed to judgement, that it's not a good drug and developed a terrible plan. Even Governor Granholm is against it and is quoted that she "believes it is a gateway drug".

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "No Deaths from Marijuana says a lot about the drug."

And what good comes from it?

If they were to legalize pot, it of course would only be legal for adults. With this type of availability and ease to conceal, how would it be controlled in regards to minors? How would the private growing of it be controlled? It would be taxed, so growing it presumably over a certain amount would be illegal. There would still be laws that would have to be enforced. If it were sold for 10 dollars an ounce, there would still be people growing it illegally and selling it for 5 dollars an ounce. That stuff would be growing everywhere. It would be impossible to control.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote "you have to break the law and buy it on the street to have it,"

Unless it is prescribed by physician, same with Vicodin or any other controlled substance.

[Big Dog]

Sstash, There will not be any prescriptions for medicinal mj. in MI. All you will receive from the state is a card that prevents you from being arrested and charged for possession. The state will not provide or advise qualified persons needing it, where to get it. Your only choice is to buy it illegally or grow up to 10 plants in your home. You must buy the seeds illegally too, as they do not provide them. MI. law is treating mj as a much more serious drug than vicodin, which by the way is very addictive. Go figure!

[Big Dog]

Sstash. Where have you been? Minors use, and have more access to pot than any age group right now. High school and Jr. high students are rumored to be able to get grass within an hour. This has been the case for 10 years or more. You don't have to worry about them getting it, they already have it.

[Locke09]

If you legalize drugs, you'll just have a whole new set of laws to manage and reasons to incarcerate people who break them.

We would need to establish the maximum amount of drugs that can be in your system while driving, like we do with alcohol. Or are we claiming that drugs cause no impairment?

Will pregnant women be prohibited from using drugs while pregnant? How about all women of child-bearing age being prohibited because they might be pregnant long before they actually know it.

Will there be certain professions that will still be prohibited from using drugs? Is it okay for the airline pilot to be "high". Does the surgeon have to take a test each time before going into the operating room to ensure he/she doesn't have drugs in his/her system?

Won't thefts increase when some people who want the drugs don't have the means to procure them [[or maybe the space to grow enough plants to keep them as high as they want)?

Who really thinks that a person addicted to crack or heroin or meth will make a good employee?

Won't there still be an underground market for getting the legal drugs to those whom we say cannot legally have them or have them in the quantities they want?

Also, people discredit what they call "slippery slope" logic. But some of the issues we have in society today are indeed a result of the slippery slopes humans often place themselves on. Sort of like when the hem of a skirt went up higher and higher as people told themselves that each new length was okay. That's a fairly benign example, but that's what people often mean when they say we will be on a slippery slope. As we become desensitized to one thing [[or accepting of it) something else often comes along that carries us a bit further.

[Blarf]

Quote: "No Deaths from Marijuana says a lot about the drug."

And what good comes from it?

If they were to legalize pot, it of course would only be legal for adults. With this type of availability and ease to conceal, how would it be controlled in regards to minors? How would the private growing of it be controlled? It would be taxed, so growing it presumably over a certain amount would be illegal. There would still be laws that would have to be enforced. If it were sold for 10 dollars an ounce, there would still be people growing it illegally and selling it for 5 dollars an ounce. That stuff would be growing everywhere. It would be impossible to control.

It would be treated the same as alcohol. Very few people are going to grow it themselves if they can by it. It's much easier to brew your own beer than to grow good pot, and I'm not taking the time or effort to brew my own beer.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "It's much easier to brew your own beer than to grow good pot,"

Are you sure about that? Of course you didn't say GOOD beer.. Some of that crap they sell at these microbreweries is horrible. It's got junk floating in it.

[Bearinabox]

And what good comes from it?

In a free country, there shouldn't have to be "good that comes from" something for it not to be banned. Not everything in our lives is necessarily useful or constructive or socially beneficial, but that doesn't mean it's illegal. Pretty glass vases aren't going to cure cancer or eradicate poverty, but you won't get thrown in jail for keeping one on your mantel.

[DetroitDad]

If you legalize drugs, you'll just have a whole new set of laws to manage and reasons to incarcerate people who break them....

We would need to establish the maximum amount of drugs that can be in your system while driving, like we do with alcohol. Or are we claiming that drugs cause no impairment?

-No drugs should be allowed without a prescription while driving. Driving on alcohol is only allowed now because it was grandfathered in and/or because it is used in other products, and they need a buffer. Orange juice, mouth wash, and non-alcoholic beer all have some alcohol in them.

Will pregnant women be prohibited from using drugs while pregnant? How about all women of child-bearing age being prohibited because they might be pregnant long before they actually know it.

-It depends on the drug. Birth control should be encouraged and made easily available.

Will there be certain professions that will still be prohibited from using drugs? Is it okay for the airline pilot to be "high". Does the surgeon have to take a test each time before going into the operating room to ensure he/she doesn't have drugs in his/her system?

-It depends on the amount of time the drug stays in the body. Obviously we do not let our airline pilots fly drunk, so we wouldn't let them drive high either. Typically, random tests or test of those suspected of being under the influence would be done; basically what they do now.

Won't thefts increase when some people who want the drugs don't have the means to procure them [[or maybe the space to grow enough plants to keep them as high as they want)?

-I would think that the opposite is true. Most drugs are looked for after the consumer has money, and are already easily available to get after a phone call and a couple hours of waiting, or from certain stores. The real problems occur when availability plummets because of raids. Pent up demand means demand gets higher during times of low supply [[raids), and price gouging occurs from whoever is left. If no one is left in a market, someone takes advantage of the opportunity, and enters the market or business.

Who really thinks that a person addicted to crack or heroin or meth will make a good employee?

-Many people. Drug users tend to have jobs. Plenty of the night cleaning crews and 30 something fast food workers in Metro Detroit are drug users. Drugs users will take a lot of shit and work for cheap. What really is different between saving to buy a drug and saving to buy a new sofa? I would bet that the sofa consumer would have less desire than a drug consumer.

Won't there still be an underground market for getting the legal drugs to those whom we say cannot legally have them or have them in the quantities they want?

-Yes, but it will be less violent. The problem should be similar to minors and hospital workers smoking tobacco, or truck drivers drinking too much coffee, for "light" drugs like Marijuana. The problems with harder drugs would probably be similar to alcohol.

Also, people discredit what they call "slippery slope" logic. But some of the issues we have in society today are indeed a result of the slippery slopes humans often place themselves on. Sort of like when the hem of a skirt went up higher and higher as people told themselves that each new length was okay. That's a fairly benign example, but that's what people often mean when they say we will be on a slippery slope. As we become desensitized to one thing [[or accepting of it) something else often comes along that carries us a bit further.

-You are really looking at the slippery slope backwards. All drugs in America were legal just 50-100 years ago. Drugs started becoming illegal because of racism, in that most users were black, Mexican, etc., so it was a way to get them easily locked up. It is still illegal as a form of Socialism, in that the government and watch dog groups feel it is the government's responsibility to protect people from self harm choices, IE; the choice between right and wrong. This stance is a slippery slope to more protection and people telling people how they should live. Researching some of the supporters of keeping drugs illegal, you will find that they also are pushing for tougher regulation, heavy taxation, and outright bans on....

• Cigarettes
• Espressos [[to much caffeine)
• Cough Medicines
• Chocolate
• Amusement Parks [[a gateway activity to thrill seeking behavior)
• Roller Coasters [[over a certain height, speed, G-force etc.)
• Many Prescription Drugs
• Jolt Brand Soda Pop
• Energy Drinks
• Caffeine Pills
• Fast Food
• Cell Phone Use
• Catnip for Cats
• Drag Racing
• Skateboarding [[see "amusement parks")
• Multi Vitamins
• Gambling
• Exotic Dancing
• Exotic Dancing Classes for Wives
• Bungee Jumping
• Music, Movies, and Video Games Deemed Inappropriate
• Pregnancy/Birthing Videos on The Discovery Channel
• Recreational Drug Research
• Any Substance That Pretty Much Has Some Type of Chemical Reaction in the Brain.

It's a slippery slope all right. For the government it's downright unconstitutional, and for the religious watch dogs, it's downright blasphemous.

[Locke09]

DetroitDad,

I enjoyed the way you responded to the arguments I put forth, but I have to strongly disagree on one thing. I guess I know too many people who had mad skills in their various disciplines, who don't care about anything anymore except getting high.

Crack is relatively cheap. But, a crack addict is only going to work long enough to get the money to buy the next hit. I have personally had to fire a couple of crack addicts who could never seem to find their way back to work after lunch on a payday.

Also, there are many people who started out with enough money to buy the drugs they wanted. Problem is, they spent it all chasing that first high, which they would never have again. I know people who had good jobs who ended up selling expensive items for peanuts in order to keep getting high. They might have started with their paycheck on a Friday. By Monday they were broke, still wanted to get high, and didn't have money left to pay their bills.

Some drugs are cheap even though they are illegal. It's not that people can't afford them, it's that there is not enough money to keep them high as long as they want to be high. Of course, this is more prevalent with the harder drugs.