The skinny on healthcare, who is lying?

[ccbatson]

Reducing a deficit via a spending program?? Any 4th grader will tell you that doesn't make sense. How will a reduction occur? Cuts to benefits already promised and paid for by the public, taxation in various forms, and borrowing are the only mechanisms possible from a spending program....the only true solution is to diminish spending and government.

[elganned]

Didn't happen....besides, you already admitted as much in your waffling comments in #87 above. Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

I would think you would be the absolute last person wishing to bring up waffling, Mr. individual=family=corporation=[[fill in the blank).

[ccbatson]

Nothing inconsistent in that paradigm. Free market capitalist corporations are individuals working for their individual best interests in tandem with each other. Primary family identity, for those who have a well functioning family is the same as the individual...our interest are one and the same and we act accordingly.

[rb336]

Reducing a deficit via a spending program?? Any 4th grader will tell you that doesn't make sense. How will a reduction occur? Cuts to benefits already promised and paid for by the public, taxation in various forms, and borrowing are the only mechanisms possible from a spending program....the only true solution is to diminish spending and government.

any 1st grader will tell you that if you are giving away seven apples already, and then you only have to give away six, that you are saving 1 apple

[Lorax]

Nothing inconsistent in that paradigm. Free market capitalist corporations are individuals working for their individual best interests in tandem with each other. Primary family identity, for those who have a well functioning family is the same as the individual...our interest are one and the same and we act accordingly.

LOL!!!

Sounds a little collectivey to me.

I guess you could label this arrangement a UNION.

[elganned]

Nothing inconsistent in that paradigm. Free market capitalist corporations are individuals working for their individual best interests in tandem with each other. Primary family identity, for those who have a well functioning family is the same as the individual...our interest are one and the same and we act accordingly.

Yet you decry unions, which are "individuals working for their individual best interests in tandem with each other." I hesitate to use the term "hypocrisy", but if the shoe fits...

And this statement gives the lie to your assertion that you apply fundamental axioms in your so-called critical thinking: "A=A, existents exist," etc. The most fundamental of axioms is that 1=1, yet you assert here that 1=2, or 3, or 10,000, or whatever you wish it to equal.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Yet you decry unions, which are "individuals working for their individual best interests in tandem with each other." "

How is an large group an individual? Do you really think an individual could walk into a business and make a company pay them whatever they feel like they should be paid? Irrelevant to that company's business model? Unions are just slick homogenized, legalized extortion and nothing else. Give us this or we'll close you down, we'll strike and harm you financially. Probably the worst example when trying to highlight a free market premise, they are anything but.

[ghettopalmetto]

Unions are just slick homogenized, legalized extortion and nothing else. Give us this or we'll close you down, we'll strike and harm you financially. Probably the worst example when trying to highlight a free market premise, they are anything but.

So you believe in a selective interpretation of the First Amendment?

There is no law that guarantees an employer the right to exploit his employees without repercussion. Oh, wait a second, there is. It's ingeniously called "Right to Work".

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "There is no law that guarantees an employer the right to exploit his employees without repercussion."

There is no law that says you have to work there either. As many are finding out.

[ghettopalmetto]

Quote: "There is no law that guarantees an employer the right to exploit his employees without repercussion."

There is no law that says you have to work there either. As many are finding out.

And business owners would do well to bear in mind that without their employees, they don't make Dollar One.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "And business owners would do well to bear in mind that without their employees, they don't make Dollar One."

You are exactly right and just proved my point. Unions are not necessary.

[ghettopalmetto]

Quote: "And business owners would do well to bear in mind that without their employees, they don't make Dollar One."

You are exactly right and just proved my point. Unions are not necessary.

Maybe you don't believe unions are necessary. That's your opinion. That does not give companies the right to destroy unions or intimidate employees who organize, so that the company might continue to pay poverty-level wages for an honest day's work. There's that whole Right to Peaceably Assemble, you know.

[rb336]

So you believe in a selective interpretation of the First Amendment?

There is no law that guarantees an employer the right to exploit his employees without repercussion. Oh, wait a second, there is. It's ingeniously called "Right to Work".

interesting enough, many of those arguing for "right to work" laws were bashing unions for creating racially mixed work places

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "That does not give companies the right to destroy unions or intimidate employees who organize,"

And they have no obligation to even operate here either. I'm really surprised one if not all three have not already moved all their manufacturing offshore. Or at least across the border. These companies are dying on the ropes, and all I hear from the employees is how the company is screwing them. Us against them. "Whatever they offer, it's never enough", isn't that the mantra? The big bad evil company, the employer, the enemy.

Quote: "many of those arguing for "right to work" laws were bashing unions for creating racially mixed work places "

Sounds like a bunch of racists, no really sounds like pro-union bullshit. Some nerve, people trying to rebuild Michigan's economy. Idiots trying to lure new business here. What are they thinking?

Michigan is finished until it changes it's stance on right to work. No businesses are going to move here. Why would they? There are more reasons to leave than there are to stay. The present trend bears that out.

[ghettopalmetto]

Quote: "That does not give companies the right to destroy unions or intimidate employees who organize,"

And they have no obligation to even operate here either. I'm really surprised one if not all three have not already moved all their manufacturing offshore. Or at least across the border. These companies are dying on the ropes, and all I hear from the employees is how the company is screwing them. Us against them. "Whatever they offer, it's never enough", isn't that the mantra? The big bad evil company, the employer, the enemy.

Quote: "many of those arguing for "right to work" laws were bashing unions for creating racially mixed work places "

Sounds like a bunch of racists, no really sounds like pro-union bullshit. Some nerve, people trying to rebuild Michigan's economy. Idiots trying to lure new business here. What are they thinking?

Michigan is finished until it changes it's stance on right to work. No businesses are going to move here. Why would they? There are more reasons to leave than there are to stay. The present trend bears that out.

I can't understand a thing you wrote. What are the antecedents of "they", "all three", "their", "these companies", "the company", and "they"?

If you think you can rebuild Michigan's economy on $10-$15/hour unskilled labor, knock yourself out, because that's essentially what Right to Work amounts to. That kinda money might be terrific for Bubba W. Dirtfarmer living in the poor, rural South. People with educations and skill sets are going to demand a bit more from their master, er, employers. But like I said, give it a go, and let us know what kind of talent you attract.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "If you think you can rebuild Michigan's economy on $10-$15/hour"

It was originally built on much less.

Present cost of living? One can buy a decent house in this town for 50k.

Quote: "People with educations and skill sets are going to demand a bit more from their master"

I hate to break it to you, but assembly work is not a skilled trade.

Yes, attack the grammar. You know I'm right, so pound the punctuation. Heh, how does that saying go for lawyers? If you have no facts, pound the law, if you have no law, pound the facts, if you have neither, pound the table? Same deal.

[elganned]

By the same reasoning that unions are "unnecessary", so are corporations. They exist only to shelter the "owners" [[shareholders) from liability.

Corporations should be disolved and all businesses operate either as sole proprieterships or partnerships. Unless and until that happens, unions are necessary. Think of a union as a "corporation" of workers who "sell" their labor as their product.

[elganned]

Present cost of living? One can buy a decent house in this town for 50k.

...but not in a decent neighborhood.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "...but not in a decent neighborhood."

Translation: Not in Mcmansionvilles where the construction was funded by the spoils of UAW extortion. I can show you hundreds and probably thousands of properties in this town that are in more than decent neighborhoods for 50k and under. Go to moveinmichigan.com and see for yourself.

[rb336]

Quote: "If you think you can rebuild Michigan's economy on $10-$15/hour"

It was originally built on much less.

yep, back in the day it was built on a $5 day

wait a minute...back then a loaf of bread was a nickel, if that, a new car cost $600 [[120 days), and a house in a good neighborhood was $1200 [[240 days)

now that $50k house -- not in a good neighborhood

at 15/hr that is $120/day or 416 days of work
a new car @ $15k [[for a little car) is about the same -- 125 days, except today you need insurance, so jack up 1 day a month+ for that

[ghettopalmetto]

Quote: "If you think you can rebuild Michigan's economy on $10-$15/hour"

It was originally built on much less.

Present cost of living? One can buy a decent house in this town for 50k.

Quote: "People with educations and skill sets are going to demand a bit more from their master"

I hate to break it to you, but assembly work is not a skilled trade.

Yes, attack the grammar. You know I'm right, so pound the punctuation. Heh, how does that saying go for lawyers? If you have no facts, pound the law, if you have no law, pound the facts, if you have neither, pound the table? Same deal.

IF WHAT YOU WROTE WAS WRITTEN IN PROPER ENGLISH, I would not comment that it does not make sense. Learn what an antecedent is and use it. No one can read your mind.

Assembly work doesn't require skill? I take it you haven't welded, worked with computers and robots, or machined parts using CNC, have you? That's not work you could just hand to a Bubba you just plucked out of the cornfield.

Keep setting low expectations for yourself and see how far it gets you. Present-day Michigan is the result of your line of thinking, and it ain't exactly pretty.

[rb336]

Quote: "...but not in a decent neighborhood."

Translation: Not in Mcmansionvilles where the construction was funded by the spoils of UAW extortion

now you are entering Batsville for stupid comments. How many auto workers live in McMansions?

You can't buy a decent home in Hazel Park for $50K, or Allen Park. Hell, it's hard to find one in Hamtown for that price that won't need another $20-30k to put into good shape

[Sstashmoo]

With a little shopping and frugality, the way most buy a house, they are available and even cheaper than 50k. In Allen Park, go look.

Quote: "IF WHAT YOU WROTE WAS WRITTEN IN PROPER ENGLISH,"

Lol whatever. Stop screaming.

Quote: "
Keep setting low expectations for yourself and see how far it gets you. "

Attack the poster, the post is irrefutable.

Quote: "Present-day Michigan is the result of your line of thinking, and it ain't exactly pretty."

Labor unions driving the retail costs up and putting the products at a disadvantage, had nothing to do with it? My line of thinking is why some areas of the country aren't as screwed up as this one is. Think about it, Detroit has been in decline ever since the introduction of labor unions. That is undeniable. Companies have been leaving here for as long as I can remember and reason number one? Organized labor. They cannot afford union wages or even the non-union wages trying to compete at an artificial level. It isn't crime, weather or any other secondary concern, it's labor costs, period. When a business has a half million dollar per week payroll and can move south and reduce it by 20 or 30%... you see why they move.

[elganned]

...Detroit has been in decline ever since the introduction of labor unions.

Sstashmoo, leaving aside the rest of your statements for comment some other time, this statement is ridiculous on its face. The post-war boom happened LONG after unions were established, and some say because of them. [[Just some, and I'm not sure I agree with them.)

Detroit's decline didn't start until the late 60's; the unions have been around and in the auto industry since the late 30's. Therefore you cannot reasonably argue that the introduction of unions began the demise of the city; history just doesn't support that assertion.

[Sstashmoo]

Can you refute this statement?

"When a business has a half million dollar per week payroll and can move south and reduce it by 20 or 30%... you see why they move."