The skinny on healthcare, who is lying?

[ccbatson]

Or...look at the free market solutions like HSAs and cut the number in less than half for the low projection on Obamacare, and 1/3rd for the 12K figure. Remove the coercive monopoly obstacles and cut the number in half again.

[ghettopalmetto]

Or...look at the free market solutions like HSAs and cut the number in less than half for the low projection on Obamacare, and 1/3rd for the 12K figure. Remove the coercive monopoly obstacles and cut the number in half again.

What if your employer doesn't offer your one-size-fits-all solution of Health Savings Accounts [[which are NOT insurance, anyway, good doctor)?

What if your income is low enough that rent, food, clothing, transportation, and utilities consume all of your earnings? How do you fund a Health Savings Account?

What if you have a medical need that is not allowed by the IRS to be paid through a Health Savings Account?

HSA's are intended to be supplemental to, and not a replacement for, health insurance. They benefit workers whose tax brackets and incomes are high enough to enjoy a reasonable tax break for contributing to the HSA. That's it. It ain't insurance, and it sure as hell isn't the savior of the fucked-up health care system that immoral and reprehensible profiteering "doctors" like you propagate.

[ccbatson]

HSA are a hybrid of insurance and financial planning...you do not need an employer to access the option [[so take the premium from your employer from declining their insurance). Basically, their is a range of options from a bare bones catastrophic policy [[under 1200 dollars a year) plus a savings account paid into at the same rate as the difference between 100 dollars and the former premium ...maybe a bit less)...too a high deductible [[5K+) standard policy and a slush account funded by the dramatic discrepancy between the former and current monthly premiums. You decide what you will agree to as far as services and pay out of the account. The leftover accrues [[with interest), so that future year contributions diminish.

[ghettopalmetto]

http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/publi...q_basics.shtml

You must be covered by a High Deductible Health Plan [[HDHP) to be able to take advantage of HSAs. An HDHP generally costs less than what traditional health care coverage costs, so the money that you save on insurance can therefore be put into the Health Savings Account.

You must have an HDHP if you want to open an HSA. Sometimes referred to as a “catastrophic� health insurance plan, an HDHP is an inexpensive health insurance plan that generally doesn’t pay for the first several thousand dollars of health care expenses [[i.e., your “deductible�) but will generally cover you after that. Of course, your HSA is available to help you pay for the expenses your plan does not cover.

For 2008, in order to qualify to open an HSA, your HDHP minimum deductible must be at least $1,100 [[self-only coverage) or $2,200 [[family coverage). The annual out-of-pocket [[including deductibles and co-pays) for 2008 cannot exceed $5,600 [[self-only coverage) or $11,200 [[family coverage).

Sure, who needs health insurance when you can just pay for HDHP and $11,200 cash for your annual family medical bill? I'm sure that sounds real appealing to most people, especially those who currently don't have any insurance.

Of course, this thought that HSAs will save the world is based on your flawed belief that all uninsured Americans are young, healthy, big-money earners.

[ccbatson]

Very well done..this illustrates how government is strangling out the free market solutions THAT WOULD PROGRESSIVELY SAVE CONSUMERS MONEY.

[ghettopalmetto]

Very well done..this illustrates how government is strangling out the free market solutions THAT WOULD PROGRESSIVELY SAVE CONSUMERS MONEY.

If I make $20,000 a year, and I buy a high-deductible catastrophic insurance plan and HSA, then have to fork out up to $11,000 cash each year for medical expenses, HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT SAVE MONEY?

[ccbatson]

You misunderstand...the "upper limit" is 11K. To do it correctly and save money, determine what you pay right now per month [[let's say it is 500 dollars), get the rate for the HDHP/Catastrophic plan, subtract that monthly amount [[in this example, 80 dollars) from the 500 and then put the difference of 420 dollars in the account. If you like, make it 350 to see immediate savings. Up to the deductible, costs are paid out of this account, beyond that the insurance pays. The leftover amount stays in the account, grows with some interest, and reduces the amount of future contributions. If there is anything leftover when you die, it is part of the estate.

You will likely choose not to spend frivolously and will get BIG discounts when you pay directly.

[ghettopalmetto]

You misunderstand...the "upper limit" is 11K. To do it correctly and save money, determine what you pay right now per month [[let's say it is 500 dollars), get the rate for the HDHP/Catastrophic plan, subtract that monthly amount [[in this example, 80 dollars) from the 500 and then put the difference of 420 dollars in the account. If you like, make it 350 to see immediate savings. Up to the deductible, costs are paid out of this account, beyond that the insurance pays. The leftover amount stays in the account, grows with some interest, and reduces the amount of future contributions. If there is anything leftover when you die, it is part of the estate.

You will likely choose not to spend frivolously and will get BIG discounts when you pay directly.

Anyone who does not use the Upper Limit in such "financial planning" is either broke or a boob. What happens if I can spare $3000 a year, but then I get socked with a $20,000 hospital bill? Should I send the bill for the difference to you?

One has to be prepared for the worst. In the case of a low-income earner with no insurance, one had better be prepared not to ever require hospitalization in your world, huh doctor?

[Sstashmoo]

In situations like this, I always refer to one of my favorite movie quotes from My cousin Vinny "You're gettin' fucked one way er' the other"

[Detroitej72]

HSA are a hybrid of insurance and financial planning...you do not need an employer to access the option [[so take the premium from your employer from declining their insurance)

What decade are you living in? Many, if not most companies have done away with the extra pay incentive for opting out of the company plan.

[Detroitej72]

One complaint I have with all the "private, free market" plan crowd is that I recently lost my job in this wonderful recession and am trying to buy my own health care plan.

I've been denied by a few of the larger companies due to the fact that I've had kidney stones in the past, and they view it as a pre-exhausting condition, thus I make a bad risk. Needless to say, its been an uphill battle in finding an affordable health care plan, even for just catastrophic illness and/or hospitalization.

Since private, for-profit companies are not in the business of keeping folks healthy and only care about profit, its a joke to think that a free market solution is the best fix.

[Bobl]

PSSSST!
Let me pull your coat:

The insurance companies, and their K Street buddies, only lie when their lips move.

[jiminnm]

"widely reported" is a lot different from "true" you have an article by the right-wing media's token, but when I enter the phrase into google, I find nothing but page after page of right-wing blogosphere citations. even if true -- he was saying more about the convoluted language in the bill than anything else, that you need two days with lawyers to unravel the wording

Since, like many on the left, you attack the messenger when you can't counter the message, here is the actual video.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._controve.html

I continue to say that if he cannot understand the bill, then he should not vote on it. If timing is an issue, then someone is clearly trying to shove the bill through before anyone else can read it. I fear the same thing is going to happen with this upcoming proposal.

[Sstashmoo]

I'm just afraid we're going to wind up with health insurance that will be implemented like no fault insurance. Rammed through whether we like it or not, more expensive and mandatory.

The insurance companies loved that deal, they didn't need sales people anymore, they had the cops selling it for them. Who will be selling healthcare insurance now for them? The IRS?

[ccbatson]

DetroiteJ72...you are missing the obvious. Offer for the carrier to exclude kidney stones and they will issue you a policy no problem. In the unlikely event that you have a problem requiring attention by way of a kidney stone, you will have to pay out of pocket using self pay discounts to your best advantage.

[rb336]

DetroiteJ72...you are missing the obvious. Offer for the carrier to exclude kidney stones and they will issue you a policy no problem. In the unlikely event that you have a problem requiring attention by way of a kidney stone, you will have to pay out of pocket using self pay discounts to your best advantage.

no, you are missing the point - that would still be THOUSANDS of dollars, when thousands [[at least) more were already paid for health insurance that won't cover anything. it is legalized theft

[mjs]

If he can't read, or understand, the bills presented, then he should resign because he is not representing his constituents. If time is an issue, then there should be ample time avaiable for all, including you and I, to review the bill.

He can't read this one because it was designed to be unreadable. 1000 pages! Most people have never written 1000 pages in the entire lives. Read the thing. It makes your insurance contract seem short and clear and in comparison, it is. If these attorneys wrote this way in law school, they wouldn't have made it past their first year legal writing class. Its not that they're bad at their jobs, its that they're so good at their jobs.

Enron's attorney's showed how masterful this strategy can be. They wrote an incomprehensible utility bill so the representatives of California would vote on it without asking questions on it and it lead to Enron making rolling blackouts to increase their derivatives. If you want to shut powerful people up, talk over their heads and their egos will make them pretend they understand. Then, when the bill passed, Enron knew the loopholes because they were the ones that intentionally placed them there.

The Dems already super rushed a that banking exec payoff bill disguised as a recovery bill in October 2007. Then, when all the intentioanlly added loopholes were finally discovered, everyone played dumb.

Bills don't need to be short and clear just so they can be reviewed by the representatives. They also need to be reviewed, understood, and commented on by the media and the public. Well intentioned, poorly written, federal bills are very rare. In general, if the bill is poorly written, its an indication that its poorly intentioned.

Never forget, government exists for the benefit of the people, not the other way around.

[mjs]

I'm just afraid we're going to wind up with health insurance that will be implemented like no fault insurance. Rammed through whether we like it or not, more expensive and mandatory.

Provide your support. When the no fault legislation passed, premiums went down, court cases moved faster, and the number of people pushed into bankruptcy from auto accidents dropped like a rock.

The main reason was that the only time tort reform shows a verifiable savings is when it has been tied to mandatory coverage in things such as auto torts and worker comp torts. Thats because if the injured gets covered regardless of fault, you never have to ask a jury who's at fault and whether its covered is a much more objective argument over what did the contract or law say is covered.

If health care insurance is an essential thing that everyone needs to have, then its essential that everyone has it.

[rb336]

If health care insurance is an essential thing that everyone needs to have, then its essential that everyone has it.

yet some simply cannot grasp that

[elganned]

My first question is: How will they enforce it?

Regarding auto insurance, you have to at least provide proof of insurance when you renew your registration or buy an automobile. What's the vehicle to check to see if you have health insurance? A requirement to submit proof with your tax return? Yearly inspections? Random stops?

I don't see how they can possibly enforce this without measures sure to be found obtrusive and invasive and face court challenge over invasion of privacy. And an unenforcable law is often worse than no law.

Like belling the cat, it's a great idea until it comes time to actually put it into effect.

[ghettopalmetto]

My first question is: How will they enforce it?

Regarding auto insurance, you have to at least provide proof of insurance when you renew your registration or buy an automobile. What's the vehicle to check to see if you have health insurance? A requirement to submit proof with your tax return? Yearly inspections? Random stops?

I don't see how they can possibly enforce this without measures sure to be found obtrusive and invasive and face court challenge over invasion of privacy. And an unenforcable law is often worse than no law.

Like belling the cat, it's a great idea until it comes time to actually put it into effect.

You have to have a Social Security number, do you not? How invaded have you felt due to your ownership of a SSN?

[elganned]

But you can't cancel your SS number. You can cancel a health insurance policy.
So the analogy doesn't hold up.

Besides, having a SS # doesn't cost me money.

[Big Dog]

Ghetto, you might as well stop trying. You are not intelligent enough, to debate with elganned

[rb336]

My first question is: How will they enforce it?

Regarding auto insurance, you have to at least provide proof of insurance when you renew your registration or buy an automobile. What's the vehicle to check to see if you have health insurance? A requirement to submit proof with your tax return? Yearly inspections? Random stops?

I don't see how they can possibly enforce this without measures sure to be found obtrusive and invasive and face court challenge over invasion of privacy. And an unenforcable law is often worse than no law.

Like belling the cat, it's a great idea until it comes time to actually put it into effect.

all the more reason for single payer.

[ghettopalmetto]

But you can't cancel your SS number. You can cancel a health insurance policy.
So the analogy doesn't hold up.

Besides, having a SS # doesn't cost me money.

So now I get it. You just don't want to have to buy health insurance. You're too busy investing your millions in all sorts of other, more economically-productive activities. Got it.

I'm curious to know what would happen if health insurance became mandatory, but then emergency rooms became lawfully prohibited from treating uininsured patients. Would you still forego health insurance?