Michigan Central Depot ideas

**Gistok** · April-09-09, 02:22 PM

Short of any restoration or renovation plans, I like Detourdetroit's plan on just leaving it as a large ruin within a park setting.

My question for those on this forum who wish to tear it down is this... what constitutes a ruin that should be leveled, versus one that should be preserved?

The Alamo in the middle of San Antonio is a ruin. And yet it still stands. The Roman Colosseum [[Flavian Amphitheatre) has had all of the architectural brickwork taken off of the back of the building [[we always only see it in pictures from the side that has NOT been partially dismantled), so it is really in much worse shape than the MCS.

All but one of the over 40 castles on the scenic part of the Rhine River in Germany are partially or totally ruined...

What constitutes the criteria for saving a ruin versus bulldozing it? Is it historical value?

The MCS was Detroit's own version of Ellis Island for the hundreds of thousand of people who migrated here from all parts of the country and world, for jobs and a new way of life.

The MCS was where loved ones were sent off to war [[WWI, WWII, Korea)... and the lucky ones were greeted upon their return here. Granted most folks who post here have NEVER had this type of experience, unless you include Metro Airport, which is hardly the same thing.

The MCS has been around when train travel was the only way to get around... long before the advent of Airlines and the Interstates.

Why does no one complain that San Antonio continues to have that ruinous Alamo, yet we should raze the MCS? Is it because no major battles happened there? If so, then we might as well raze historic Fort Wayne, since no battle was ever fought there.

Or is it because there are already so many ruins of Detroit, and getting rid of the biggest ruin somehow makes some folks who post here happy, thinking that maybe one less ruin will make Detroit a better place, even though it will just likely end up a weed strewn meadow for many decades...

Can't we have one major ruin? Granted it would be America's largest and most impressive ruin.... so what's wrong with that? It has classic Greco-Roman architecture, a perfect fit for a ruin!

Or does that go against the American grain of bulldozing everything that can't be used. After all, no one will argue that we are a throwaway society.

Frank Lloyd Wright once said that Architecture is what future civilizations will judge our civilization by...

Well I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by strip malls and drive-thru fast food places...

Gistok

**vintagesoul** · April-09-09, 02:49 PM

Definitely does not have to be razed. I am with you on that Gistok. However, I think there are a lot of variables when dealing with inner-city "ruins". Where safety is a concern, I lean more towards demolition. If the structure can be secured and made to be safe and have some sort of usefulness via historical-educational value then that's great. Of course this is all assuming that it's impossible for the forseeable future to rehab it into something more useful than just sitting there looking like it does.

Basically what I am saying is, with respect specifically to the MCS, something needs to happen. I do not feel that generally speaking you can make sweeping statements about whether all abandoned/condemned structures should be torn down. Each situation needs to be reviewed individually.

I think there is a lot of value in the MCS and it should not be torn down, but the situation being what it is, if that is the only option besides leaving it like it is, then I think that is what will need to happen. It's all about what options we are presented with at the time.

But in agreeance with you, most people who want to demo buildings no questions asked want to for the wrong reasons...mainly they just don't know better.

**Gistok** · April-09-09, 03:06 PM

I agree vintagesould. Unlike other ruins, the MCS as a ruin should have people kept at bay [[for safety's sake), rather than allowing unrestricted access.

**oneway** · April-09-09, 03:31 PM

Despite all of the City's issues, I didn't realize that MCS was such a pressing matter. I've worked at several schools engulfed by abandoned, dilapidated housing. It's convienent to focus attention on hulks like MCS and Lafayette rather than have a substantive conversation about our neighborhoods.

Does Corktown have a proposal for this site?

**vintagesoul** · April-09-09, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by oneway

Despite all of the City's issues, I didn't realize that MCS was such a pressing matter. I've worked at several schools engulfed by abandoned, dilapidated housing. It's convienent to focus attention on hulks like MCS and Lafayette rather than have a substantive conversation about our neighborhoods.

Does Corktown have a proposal for this site?

This is just a theoretical discussion of people's plans for this building. No doubt all the people who posted here have the same types of ideas for other parts of the city - including the blighted neighborhoods you speak of.

Why don't you start a thread for substantive discussion about the neighborhoods instead of posting that? This should always be constructive discussion. Not sarcastic-destructive.

**oneway** · April-09-09, 03:45 PM

I was referring to the City Council's motion for demolition, vintagesoul. This is a great thread. Quick pounce though, you almost had me.

**vintagesoul** · April-09-09, 03:48 PM

Ok - point taken. I misread your post due to the remark about convenience.

**McIPor** · April-09-09, 04:02 PM

In 2001, our firm did a number of feasibility studies that looked at uses, structural stability, and costs to renovate the MCD for Centra. The structual studies showed the building to be sound, the cost estimate at the time, was approximately $40 million. Centra pumped the water out of the basement, cleaned out a lot of debris, and secured the building. We worked with a structural engineer who did a report, and a contractor on pricing [[who had done renovation work on the building in the 80â€™s before it was closed, including a new roof)

The financial model for saving the building was finding a tenent for the tower, either office, hotel, residential or some combination like the current Book Cadillac. The tower use would financially support keeping the grand rooms below, which at the time we looked at as contemporary art museum space [[MoCAD perhaps?), Casino, event spaces, small retail, even movie theaters built behind where the train sheds were. We also located much of the salvage that was removed that could be used for reproduction of missing details.

In 2001, Centra was in discussions with the GSA and customs to move into the tower until 9/11. After that, it was looked at to be one of 3 homeland security centers in the country, but that didnâ€™t get funded by congress. We looked at it as a casino and hotel. Then the Police were interested in moving their headquarters there. That didnâ€™t happen because they decided to decentralize their offices for security [[again post 9/11).

I do not support demolishing this great structure. If anything, have the DEGC help Centra locate a tenent and work on financing to make it happen. A renovated MCD would go very far in moving that neighborhood forward. Maroun and centra had no intention of tearing it down back then.

**Burnsie** · April-09-09, 05:14 PM

MclPor wrote, "Centra...secured the building."

No, it didn't.

**Bob Green** · April-09-09, 09:05 PM

Does anyone have any pictures of MCS in its last years of service, or the couple years after it closed before it was pillaged?

**Rocko** · April-09-09, 09:53 PM

This short video documentary was done in 1987, less than a year before the station closed. Check it out, it's pretty cool/heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbtyUsnrY2I

**McIPor** · April-09-09, 09:53 PM

It fixed the fences and secured the property. Also had an agreement with the police to arrest trespassers, but this was 5 or
6 years ago now.

Originally Posted by Burnsie

MclPor wrote, "Centra...secured the building."

No, it didn't.

**DTW plug** · April-09-09, 10:36 PM

Been lurking a while but had to comment on this issue.

It sounds as if tenants could be found through goverment [[federal vs state) saving the office tower, leaving the shed for alternative uses.

I would suggest, and I hope 'Matty' reads this, is the conversion of the main hall into an 'Exploratorium' type of childrens museum and/or transportation museum, making use of the sheds outside. The preservation of the facade a la 'Palace of Fine Arts' in SF was suggested, but the rear portion of the park houses the Exploratorium, an excellent hands on museum. This could be a boon for kids, [[esp DPS), looking for inspiration. If done well, this facility would be unique in the region, if not the country, while providing a gorgeous learning environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratorium

An alternative use could be to showcase Detroit's role as 'Arsenal of Democracy' in WWII. A 'The Henry Ford' extension campus?

Motown Museum?

This could happen even if the tower needed to be demolished.

God knows this man needs the good PR this would generate.

**Gistok** · April-09-09, 11:35 PM

Cincinnati's Art Deco Train Station found a second life as a museum. But then it wasn't burdened with a 16 story office tower....

http://www.cincymuseum.org/explore_o...nion_terminal/

The irony here is that although Cincinnati had the foresight to preserve and save their train station, they made the BIG mistake of letting every single one of their historic downtown movie palaces get destroyed, and now that they could use a few, they're gone forever...

**KarmicCurse** · April-10-09, 01:08 AM

This building is such a unique treasure of architecture and heritage that future generations will never accept our current reasons for demolishing it. Long after dilemmas of cost and function will have been forgotten the loss will be the only legacy they have.

Why not meet developers halfway? Neglect by the owner and the city have pushed the building's condition beyond reasonable private redevelopment costs. So why not agree with a developer to get it up to a more reasonable "fixer upper" status? Once a developer is found the city agrees to pay for the initial clean-up, stabilization, removal of remaining tracks, a bit of landscaping, etc. Once it's up to a realistic rehab condition the private developer will take over.

Admittedly I have no idea what that alone will cost or who might be interested in finishing the job. But if the city paid for that much of the project [[preferably by forcing Maroun to foot the bill) then it might be more feasible.

Again I have no idea how realistic this is, but another idea is a partially public limited corporation? Once a potential idea or developer is found the city opens funding to "investors". We buy shares in the building for maybe $500 each with the understanding that the owner/developer pays everyone back with some interest within 10 years. With enough care from individuals, preservation groups, and architectural institutions both academic and corporate world wide they might raise enough for that initial clean-up. The city would have to guarantee restitution if the developer defaults. Anyone who invests would get a brick or a plaque somewhere in the building or its grounds with their name on it, like at the Opera House. One of its many great rooms could have a redevelopment tribute theme.

And of course NO property taxes for the new owner/developer for the first 10 years or so!

I still think an institution of higher learning would be an ideal use. An entire campus in one building. Either a government college or something private.

**Gsgeorge** · April-10-09, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by KarmicCurse

This building is such a unique treasure of architecture and heritage that future generations will never accept our current reasons for demolishing it. Long after dilemmas of cost and function will have been forgotten the loss will be the only legacy they have.

Why not meet developers halfway? Neglect by the owner and the city have pushed the building's condition beyond reasonable private redevelopment costs. So why not agree with a developer to get it up to a more reasonable "fixer upper" status? Once a developer is found the city agrees to pay for the initial clean-up, stabilization, removal of remaining tracks, a bit of landscaping, etc. Once it's up to a realistic rehab condition the private developer will take over.

Admittedly I have no idea what that alone will cost or who might be interested in finishing the job. But if the city paid for that much of the project [[preferably by forcing Maroun to foot the bill) then it might be more feasible.

Again I have no idea how realistic this is, but another idea is a partially public limited corporation? Once a potential idea or developer is found the city opens funding to "investors". We buy shares in the building for maybe $500 each with the understanding that the owner/developer pays everyone back with some interest within 10 years. With enough care from individuals, preservation groups, and architectural institutions both academic and corporate world wide they might raise enough for that initial clean-up. The city would have to guarantee restitution if the developer defaults. Anyone who invests would get a brick or a plaque somewhere in the building or its grounds with their name on it, like at the Opera House. One of its many great rooms could have a redevelopment tribute theme.

And of course NO property taxes for the new owner/developer for the first 10 years or so!

I still think an institution of higher learning would be an ideal use. An entire campus in one building. Either a government college or something private.

Karmic, welcome & great first post. These ideas are fantastic, exciting, and reasonable. How do we ever let the people "in charge" know?????? Does anyone know if a "partially public limited corporation" or something like this has been formed, and if so is it legal?

**GREENTROIT** · April-10-09, 07:56 AM

Well you said outlandish was ok, so here goes...

Let's make it a renewable energy center. Replace every window on the South side of the building with solar panels, hell put them all over the south side. We won't have to look at them, instead, Windsor gets the joy. Run power lines to and from the building, and put the energy back into the grid. Put a giant wind mill on the roof of the building, use the wind for power too.

Maybe use the generated power for Corktown only, and market the neighborhood as a place with free electricity. That might attract a few homebuyers and would certainly attract a business or two.

Please keep in mind I have no fantasies that this is feasible or possible and I'm only giving outlandish ideas as was suggested...

**Huggybear** · April-10-09, 07:57 AM

McIPor, your client has more than enough money to redo the building for cash and has enough of a stranglehold on the local logistics industry to find his own tenants. He doesn't need any governmental, quasi-governmental or nonprofit agency to find a tenant for the building. We know that if he thinks it will make money, Mr. Maroun will put money in it. And if he doesn't have that view of MCS, why should the rest of us struggle to help him? If Detroit has a limited office space market, why would we ever divert potential tenants out of the CBD? Who's going to occupy the Lafayette Building?

And the bigger question is why should we divert resources to someone who has developed a reputation for being venal, stingy and litigious. It is difficult to identify any charity he supports or any significant way in which he gives back to the community - particularly hard to swallow when he did not grow up poor or have any other understandable reason to hoard money. It can't be lost on him that at his age, it's time to start thinking about his legacy. If he did something great for the community in the here and now, he would also have an easier time with his various projects. Supporting the community is a personal choice that he is free not to make, but a lot of people with a lot less money do so.

So my suggestion is this:

1. That Maroun be allowed to build his second span - on the site of the first one. Call his bluff about closing down the Ambassador bridge. If he's worried about traffic, he can build a double-decker. And in the meantime, he can use the rail right of way he bought to operate the train tunnel as a truck tunnel.

2. He can take the money he would have spent on maintaining the Ambassador Bridge to renovate the MCS and then donate the whole thing to charity.

See? Problem solved.

If history is any lesson, the reality of the MCS demolition is that as soon as the City has the paperwork together, we're going to see a lawsuit. I wouldn't lose any sleep over its coming down. It will be a long while.

Originally Posted by McIPor

In 2001, our firm did a number of feasibility studies that looked at uses, structural stability, and costs to renovate the MCD for Centra. The structual studies showed the building to be sound, the cost estimate at the time, was approximately $40 million. Centra pumped the water out of the basement, cleaned out a lot of debris, and secured the building. We worked with a structural engineer who did a report, and a contractor on pricing [[who had done renovation work on the building in the 80â€™s before it was closed, including a new roof)

The financial model for saving the building was finding a tenent for the tower, either office, hotel, residential or some combination like the current Book Cadillac. The tower use would financially support keeping the grand rooms below, which at the time we looked at as contemporary art museum space [[MoCAD perhaps?), Casino, event spaces, small retail, even movie theaters built behind where the train sheds were. We also located much of the salvage that was removed that could be used for reproduction of missing details.

In 2001, Centra was in discussions with the GSA and customs to move into the tower until 9/11. After that, it was looked at to be one of 3 homeland security centers in the country, but that didnâ€™t get funded by congress. We looked at it as a casino and hotel. Then the Police were interested in moving their headquarters there. That didnâ€™t happen because they decided to decentralize their offices for security [[again post 9/11).

I do not support demolishing this great structure. If anything, have the DEGC help Centra locate a tenent and work on financing to make it happen. A renovated MCD would go very far in moving that neighborhood forward. Maroun and centra had no intention of tearing it down back then.

**McIPor** · April-10-09, 09:15 AM

Let the council keep Cobo, go ahead and create the regional authority to build a new Cobo on the old Tiger Stadium site and adjacent lots The MCD could become a great new convention hotel then. The new cobo would be just up Michigan Ave from MGM Hotel, Fort Shelby, Book Cadillac and Campus Martius with a trolley / light rail connecting all. The old Cobo could be maintained and used by the city until the new, regionally controlled one is built. Then, tear down the existing Cobo freeing up 50 acres of prime riverfront land for redevelopment as well as letting Jefferson continue through to the west riverfront.[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

4real · April-10-09, 09:30 AM

A Prison. For crooked politicians

**Burnsie** · April-10-09, 10:53 AM

Huggybear wrote, "he can use the rail right of way he bought to operate the train tunnel as a truck tunnel."

Moroun doesn't own the [[still active!) railroad tunnel, or the right of way leading up to it. Up to a point near the depot, the R/W is owned by Conrail Shared Assets. Past that point, it and the tunnel are owned jointly by Canadian Pacific Railway and Borealis Infrastructure Management, Inc.

Moroun *may* own the tracks over the train shed area, but not the main line.

**Rocko** · April-10-09, 01:16 PM

Burnsie, you're 100% correct.

And this is just another area where the potential "demo" on the MC falls short. The active mainline leading between the Tunnel mouth and W. Detroit Junction sits on top of the baggage and mail rooms, which is integrated and a part of the structure of MC. I bet not council person considered that limitation. Matty only owns the station and the land immediately behind it where the trainsheds once were.

Blarf · April-10-09, 04:16 PM

Turn it into a giant pillow factory.

Retroit · April-10-09, 06:33 PM

In keeping with the train theme, would there be enough room to top this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e98_1237657552

**ddf313** · April-10-09, 07:30 PM

Three thoughts:

1. Isn't the building on the Historic list, making it impossible to tear down?

2. I always pictured all of the empty streets around their with 3 story flat/apartment type buildings. Can Corktown handle the extra population?

3. I think MCS could serve as an end-of-the-line for the Woodward Light rail. The line could make its way to the river, and head west through the newly developed WEST waterfront and up to the station.

I don't think it looks that unrepairable. It reminds me of pictures I saw of the Book-Cadillac.