Bye Bye Michigan Central Depot!!

[LodgeDodger]

What pisses me off is the use of such funds for demolition. When I think stimulus money, I don't think about demolishing the buildings of rich people. I think about real jobs creation.

What needs to happen [[I'm filing this away for the day I'm in charge) is to amend the charter to address this sort of intentional blight. Really put some teeth into that SOB. Add to that anyone with a record, and it just might clean this place up.

God, I am so SICK of the bs in this town!

[Novine]

This many posts and no ones figured out what this is about? Councilmembers running for re-election need campaign contributions. Who's good for money in bad times? How about the demolition contractors and associates. Dangle the possibility of the biggest project in town and watch the donations roll in! That's all this is about, nothing more.

[Lorax]

I hope Mr. Moron reads this thread, since I'd like to call him a fu----- fascist to his face.

People with such immense wealth need to be taught a lesson in doing what's right by the community they live in, since life has given them so much. Hit these fu----- in the pocketbook where it hurts them the most. And not silly little fines, but millions and millions, so there is some real impact.

It's the typical greedy social fascist like Moron who, with impunity, use their monstrous wealth like a weapon, ignoring city ordinances, taxes, whatever they feel like.

Like a barely male Leona Helmsley, Moron must feel that only the little people pay taxes, take up the fight of preservation, and do the right thing in their everyday lives, caring for their families, going to work, and paying their bills.

When was the last time Moron even laid eyes on the MCD? It's just a speck in the totality of his gargantuan wealth.

I hope he lives every day, a long, long, life being suspicious of everyone around him, paranoid to a fault, and resigned to the fact that odious, self-centered people like him are quite correct in thinking they're hated simply for being.

Certainly he feels he has nothing to lose, since it's already carved in stone that his passing one day will leave no gap in anyone's heart.

[Lorax]

It will be a good thing for this building to come down. I don't think Detroit is lossing history, I think it's moving on from its past. Looking towards a brighter future. These structures have to go and I'm glad their making the right decisions for a change.

Hey Gagaboutme, Hitler though Paris would benefit from letting go of it's past as well when he mined the city's monuments for detonation at the end of WWII, strangely it took another Nazi, General vonCholtis to stop him.

According to you we should stack dymamite at the base of the Art Institute, firebomb the Guardian Building, implode the Fisher Building, plunger box the Renaissance Center, etc.

Maybe you got lost on the way to this thread- the one for architectural fascists is over on the one marked "Matty Moron Architecture Appreation 101."

[bragaboutme]

Wake up Lorax, it's 2009. No one is stepping up to redo the MCS.

Face the facts, CHANGES HAVE TO BE MADE!!!!!! The MCS, and The MCS only has to go. The other structures will be dealt with at a later time.

[Lorax]

What the hell would MDOT want with a dump like that?

Russix has a proactive, great idea- a true compromise.

As far as the 'dump' remark, we're not discussing your toilet training here, sorry- try the "Pots for Tots" thread.

[Lorax]

Wake up Lorax, it's 2009. No one is stepping up to redo the MCS.

Face the facts, CHANGES HAVE TO BE MADE!!!!!! The MCS, and The MCS only has to go. The other structures will be dealt with at a later time.

You're right- because a right wing fascist nutjob owns it. If he'd sell it to someone for it's true value, say, about 500 bucks, and get the hell out of the way, then someone would take a chance on it.

As for this being 2009- all the more reason to grow up and stop thinking like you're living in the 12th century.

Same was true with the Book Cadillac for TWENTY years, and it got rehabbed.

So when do we start demolishing the other 'old' buildings you find so objectionable? I'd be curious as to which buildings are on your 'hit' list.

[wolverine]

It will be a good thing for this building to come down. I don't think Detroit is lossing history, I think it's moving on from its past. Looking towards a brighter future. These structures have to go and I'm glad their making the right decisions for a change.

Other than symbolism, I don't see how the two correlate. I Agree that something should be done, but a renovated or demolished MCS will have very little impact on the city as a whole. Your bright future is in good schools and police, increasing jobs in the city, and building liveable environments with necessary amenities, services, and of course having buildings in your downtown and commercial streets. MCS gives people something to gawk at. It neither harms or benefits city residents because it's on fenced off private land. If you are talking about making an impression on outsiders coming into the city...well maybe. But at least the station is interesting, what else they will witness is just downright sad.

It bothers me that people continue to blast some of the posters that are vocal about preservation. I see nothing wrong with discussing it since it is a topic of interest, not a task or duty. Even if it was, what do you expect people here to do? It's privately owned and not for sale. Should we storm the building and start rebuilding? I'd personally love to volunteer and donate to mothball the place like those folks in Buffalo did, but a stubborn billionaire and dysfunctional city council stand in my way.

[Rocko]

The trade of Riverside Park for the MC Depot is the best idea out there. Matty will stop at no end to have his second bridge, and this is an outstanding opportunity to get the depot out of the hands of someone who could care less, and perhaps into the hands of someone who could do something positive and dare I say stimulating with it. Trade the park for the depot property and something to the tune of $70-100 million for site stability and rehab. Once again, even if that doesn't cover complete renovation of all interior spaces, it should be more than adequate to cover all the basics [[roof repair, window replacement, facade stabilization, interior cleanup and debris removal, basements pumped out, oh, and some graffiti cleanup!, plus security, etc. etc.)

On the Buffalo Central Terminal, once in a similar state as the MC, many banks of windows were covered with plexi-glass and some with painted plywood, which will be replaced some day when they have the funds and need to restore the windows correctly. This would be great for the MC. Even if they simply plywood over half of the windows on the office tower for now, that would be a big savings.

Many of you have already read my hypothetical plan for returning MC to use as a transit center with above tower space for rent. MC's past as an active train station is my vision for the building's future, but more and more, I am realizing an important chapter in this building's story is the ruin we've come to know it as these past 21 years. I advocate for a full restoration of many interior spaces, but I am now thinking that at least some portion, even if small, of the interior should be stabilized, but essentially left as is, graffiti, damage, and all, to showcase this story, to visitors and locals, and remind ourselves where we have been. Just my thoughts....

>>>Rocko, formerly known by the alter ego BusterWMU

[Rocko]

Wolverine, I'm right with you - If a non profit acquired MC and began mothballing and preserving the building, I'd love to donate my time and materials to it's repair.

[Russix]

What the hell would MDOT want with a dump like that?

MDOT is about to pour 26 million into a new train station in New Center. The advantage of setting back up in MCS is the close proximity to the tunnel and being right in-between the route from Chicago to Toronto without meandering off to a stub station. Chicago & Toronto both have Union Stations which are the hubs of their transit systems, words cannot explain the economic benefit that could be reaped by tieing these two hubs together. The other potential benefit would be the ability to expand station capacity greatly at MCS whereas the New Center station will be rather limited. I think the lack of long-range planning is the only dump stinking around here these days.

[bibs]

Why would the city council be interested in the MCS at this particular time? DetroitNerg and Novine have made reasonable suggestions. Campaign money? Perhaps. Is there other political motivations? He is trying to build a second span, right. Is someone trying to send him a message or put the heat on him?

[LodgeDodger]

I hope Mr. Moron reads this thread, since I'd like to call him a fu----- fascist to his face.

People with such immense wealth need to be taught a lesson in doing what's right by the community they live in, since life has given them so much. Hit these fu----- in the pocketbook where it hurts them the most. And not silly little fines, but millions and millions, so there is some real impact.

It's the typical greedy social fascist like Moron who, with impunity, use their monstrous wealth like a weapon, ignoring city ordinances, taxes, whatever they feel like.

Like a barely male Leona Helmsley, Moron must feel that only the little people pay taxes, take up the fight of preservation, and do the right thing in their everyday lives, caring for their families, going to work, and paying their bills.

When was the last time Moron even laid eyes on the MCD? It's just a speck in the totality of his gargantuan wealth.

I hope he lives every day, a long, long, life being suspicious of everyone around him, paranoid to a fault, and resigned to the fact that odious, self-centered people like him are quite correct in thinking they're hated simply for being.

Certainly he feels he has nothing to lose, since it's already carved in stone that his passing one day will leave no gap in anyone's heart.

I wish him cancer of the a**hole.

[Rocko]

Apologies if this was posted farther up...

From Crain's Detroit:

Detroit City Council wants Michigan Central Depot torn down

By Bill Shea

What many call Detroit's biggest eyesore could be coming down.

The Detroit City Council on Tuesday passed a resolution for emergency demolition of the 17-story, Michigan Central Depot near downtown.

A report is expected April 28 on how demolition would be enforced.

Mayor Ken Cockrel Jr. wants to use $3.6 million in federal stimulus money to demolish the depot, then seek reimbursement from owner Manuel [[Matty) Moroun. Moroun also owns the Ambassador Bridge through his Detroit International Bridge Co.

Dan Stamper, company president, told The Associated Press Tuesday afternoon the council's demolition plans are not that simple.

"The building is on the historical list," Stamper said. "But for that, we would have torn it down some time ago.

"I agree, the depot is a visual icon to the decay of Detroit and we feel really bad about that, and agree with everybody who says something needs to be done. Renovate it or get rid of it."

The Michigan Central Depot was placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1975. The registry, maintained by the National Park Service, provides economic incentive assistance for the sites, but not necessarily direct legal protection from demolition.

Sites on the list are considered worthy of preservation by the federal government, and if any federal money is involved with the site then the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation must be involved with significant changes to the registered site.

It's unclear if federal stimulus money would trigger the advisory council's involvement.

The nearly 100-year-old building dominates Detroit's southwest skyline and in its heyday had been considered one of the city's most stately structures.

Built in 1913, the station was designed by the same architects responsible for New York's Grand Central Terminal. It served thousands of travelers each year, but its demise was set as rail service in Detroit began to fall off.

The building was sold in 1985, with Amtrak pulling out three years later. Moroun bought the building in the mid- to late-1990s after one of the owners defaulted on a loan to the Detroit area businessman, Stamper said.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/904079979

[douglasm]

I'm leaning towards the tear it down side. Granted, I wish a non profit would step in and do something, but the folks in Buffalo have been fighting the grand fight to save Central Terminal and frankly don't seem to have gotten to far with it. And given the economic situation of both Detroit and the country, I have a hard time believing that anything on the development side wouldn't happen for a good long while.

[Bearinabox]

"I agree, the depot is a visual icon to the decay of Detroit and we feel really bad about that, and agree with everybody who says something needs to be done. Renovate it or get rid of it."

Who is Stamper talking to there? He does realize that his company owns the building, right? Is he telling the city that MCS is their responsibility, and not his? I'm confused.

[dexterferry]

douglasm: "the folks in Buffalo have been fighting the grand fight to save Central Terminal and frankly don't seem to have gotten to far with it"

what are you basing this statement on? everything I have seen about the buffalo terminal has been very inspiring: the concourse of that train station is used for concerts, model train exhibitions, art shows, tours, and filming. it is once again a part of the buffalo community.

can't "saving" mean something more than complete rehabilitation?

in forty years, our children and grandchildren won't look back and understand that tearing down this building made sense. they'll wonder why they only get to know about it through our photos and stories.

[LeannaM]

This gave me a giggle on City-Data

There are far worse eyesores that they need to remove from Detroit.

Reply: Yeah like the City Council

[reddog289]

In my opinion, I do not belive that this whole "Tear Down" is an Emergency. I do also belive that with the legal B.S. that it will be awhile before any demo would start. If and when that happens I do say charge MM for it. I don't belive the city,state or feds should pay for it.I would loved to see it fixed up , But I won't lose sleep if it goes.

[Gsgeorge]

Russix:
Mr. Maroun wants Riverside Park, the city should negotiate a trade with him for MCS. The trade should include compensation[[$50-$70 million) for costs associated with restoring the building. Once the building is restored the station part should be handed off to MDOT to operate a Amtrak/VIA Rail[[$30 Million available for planned Intermodal project) station while the rest of the building is leased out to a developer to manage.

This is an excellent idea, but requires a political negotiation not seen in Detroit in a long time. I have little faith in the powers that reign over this city, but if corruption can be used to an advantage--this is it. We have Moroun in a spot, take advantage of this situation. I proposed a similar solution back in January in the thread "Message to Mr. Maroun" [[sic, now gone from the atdetroit.net archives), and many other posters on this forum have suggested this idea. Our Mayor and city council are certainly aware, but sometimes it is hard to tell. It may be gearing up to this. Hard to tell what Moroun's response will be. But I am glad you brought it up, because now the word is spreading. It will be too public to ignore it at a point.

In the mean time, if the building has to go, preserving parts of it are reasonable solution. Take the front facade, interior columns, and other elements and create a public plaza and gardens. Or, sparse the building down to the waiting room/shopping mezzanine and create an open air "clubhouse" for the park. Either of these solutions would be smart & project a good image for the city, the residents, retain our "history" aka detroit's warped sense of history, and yes, even Mr. Moroun can say "at least I did something".

Here is the worst part of it all. That there are many people who never got to experience this place for what it really was -- a bustling train station, full of GIs and immigrants, blacks and whites, businessmen and transients. It was a symbol of all that was good in Detroit. As it exists now, in limbo, it is as much part of Detroit's character and history as it is its decay. However it ends up being demolished will speak of how Detroit operates today and into the future. If we demolish the station completely, Detroit will always have the scar of destroying something sacred & significant, and we will perpetuate a mode of development that has not worked, never worked, and doesn't work. If it is redeveloped, it will be a success story, an astonishing turn of events that is a symbol of the New Detroit, the one that embraces its history and takes bold risks.

But how likely is that to happen. I think if we meet somewhere in the middle, it would be neither the scar of denial nor the huge unprecedented success. It would be the reasonable & realistic solution, a true compromise, one that is fit for the times, and the economy. A clubhouse, shopping area, would be ideal & wonderful. A public space or plaza would be acceptable and pleasing. Anything to raise property values and project a better image... Anything will do that, anything except a GRAVEL PARKING LOT.

[K-slice]

douglasm: can't "saving" mean something more than complete rehabilitation?

in forty years, our children and grandchildren won't look back and understand that tearing down this building made sense. they'll wonder why they only get to know about it through our photos and stories.

I LOVE what you just said. I was just at this building last week and it just amazes me every time. It is such a beautiful structure under the 20 years of decay.

I also agree about the meaning of saving something. Cleaning the ground floor arcade and concourse would be enough to "save" it in my book. It could be used for various things, shops, markets, concerts, whatever. and having a functioning ground floor would keep vandals and bums out of the upper floors thus securing the whole building.

[Ghetto_butterfly]

Gistok made a good point about this same topic in another thread. He cited the example of a famous ruin in a German city, that's been standing there for about 2000 years [[the Porta Negra in Trier). Tourists, visitors just come there to admire it, take photographs and it doesn't serve any other purpose than that. It was never restaured nor will it ever be, just being preserved as is. So - if there is no way to save the MCD, why not just do what is being done in so many cities in Europe that have old ruins. Preserve it as is and let it continue to be the great landmark for people to see and admire.

[Genesyxx]

I'm extremely happy over this news. Argue the building's history and architectural greatness all you want, its still a empty dead building sitting on a ton of empty dead land, and Moroun had no plans to renovate or rehabilitate this building. He's just another landowner looking to hold onto parcels until he can sell it for a profit to somebody who wants to actually do something for the city. I don't care if nothing ever gets built there in 50 years, just as long as we don't have that enormous structure as a defining model of our strife.

Good job to the mayor and city council [[wow, how many times will I say that?!). Now I just hoe they can go through with it.

[Danny]

YAY!

No more big old eysore. Marty Moroun will pay [[ with cash) for what he has done to exploit the M.C.D. We will miss that glory building.

[Irvine Laird]

I'm hopeful that if we can keep the station standing for a few more years, we can make it an economic engine for the city again. The fulcrums are these [[in no order):

1) Will the federal government under the Obama administration fast-track a comprehensive national transportation plan that allocates funds and genius toward high-speed passenger rail?

2) Will the market increase its demand for passenger rail?

3) Will federal and state authorities approve and fund a passenger rail link to Toledo, thereby making it possible for Detroiters to travel east to Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Washington, D.C., etc., without traveling all the way to Chicago first?

4) Will Detroit's core industries recover and will new industries emerge as economic drivers for the region? In other words, how much will people need to travel to Detroit for business and how much money will there be in this town?

5) Will city and/or regional leaders fund a light rail line along Michigan Avenue?

6) Will downtown continue to grow? In other words, will foot traffic, residents, and demand for office space--along with all those services necessary to support more people--increase? Will that density nudge toward Corktown?

7) Will Detroit increase its appeal as a convention and tourist destination?

8) Will initiatives like "One D" include Detroit's historic architecture as a community asset and allocate funds to promote Detroit as an architectural destination city. Will historic architecture become an impetus for investment?

9) Will demand for the Detroit border crossing drive the need for more capacity, including a rail crossing?

10) Will federal, state, and local officials have the brilliance, courage, and integrity to cast a vision, craft a plan, and see it through to success?

I the answer to all or even most of these questions is "yes," then Michigan Central Station has a viable future. It could be the downtown equivalent of Metro Airport.

However, if we go forward status quo, I see no hope for the station. Several things have to change around here first.