Hummer HQ: Detroit or Auburn Hills?

[R8RBOB]

This was on the front page of The Detroit News yesterday.

Personal Income erodes in Michigan.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...es-in-Michigan

Michigan has gone from 16th in the nation in 2000 to 35th in 2009. The last 4 years being the worst.

In the world of crawford, Oakland County is an island, immune from the hardships that is plaguing the United States. Oakland County is making money hand over fist and jobs are plentiful under the leadership of Lord Patterson.

[crawford]

In the world of crawford, Oakland County is an island, immune from the hardships that is plaguing the United States. Oakland County is making money hand over fist and jobs are plentiful under the leadership of Lord Patterson.

Well, relative to the rest of Michigan, you are correct.

If you actually bothered to read the article, it states that personal incomes plummeted in Wayne and Macomb Counties, and dropped only slightly in Oakland County.

Why? Wayne and Macomb are less diversified and more reliant on auto-related manufacturing.

Where's the Troy or Auburn Hills of Wayne County or Macomb County? That's right, there is no such place.

And, of course, Oakland County had much, much higher median incomes to begin with.

[R8RBOB]

Well, relative to the rest of Michigan, you are correct.

If you actually bothered to read the article, it states that personal incomes plummeted in Wayne and Macomb Counties, and dropped only slightly in Oakland County.

Why? Wayne and Macomb are less diversified and more reliant on auto-related manufacturing.

Where's the Troy or Auburn Hills of Wayne County or Macomb County? That's right, there is no such place.

And, of course, Oakland County had much, much higher median incomes to begin with.

You didn't need all those words to explain an useless point. The article was referring to "decreasing" incomes not "increasing" incomes in Michigan. Since Oakland Co. incomes "dropped only slighty" that means they have lost income since the last survey was given. Got it!!!!

[casscorridor]

I am 100% certain that most young/creative folks would prefer to work in Oakland County than Detroit.

1. They already live in Oakland County, and will have a much shorter commute

2. Their salary will be higher in Oakland County, and they won't have to pay for crap like parking

3. There is more creative class stuff in Oakland County than in Detroit. Bham, R.O., Ferndale, etc. are generally more appealing places to hang out than downtown Detroit. There are some things downtown, but not nearly as much as along the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County.

4. Not everyone who is young and creative prefers an urban environment. I would guess most prefer a suburban environment, just like the rest of the U.S.

And I'm not even going to address the issue of linking an evil, right-wing old man entity like Hummer to "young creative types".

You are 100% certian? LOL. That is pretty damn certian.

I must not know what the "creative class" is if you say most would prefer Oakland County over Detroit.

The people who I thought were "creative class"--young, middle class, and attracted to urbanity-- are fleeing not only Oakland County, but the entire state. I can say for a fact thi is true because countless people I know have fled the state, all agreing on the medoicrity, hemogeny and boringness of Oakland County. Some come to Detroit proper, but most leave to cities like Chicago, Portland, Philly, this list goes on, etc, etc, No matter how much you might wish, Oakland County is not the first place that pops into people's heads when they think urban. It dominated by boring suburban tract home development, strip plazzas, office parks, and malls, all sounded by huge parking lots and freeways. Sure, there are more urban-like areas, such as Ferndale, Royal Oak, and Birmingham-- but these make up for a small minority. The largest city in Oakland County is Farmington Hills, which entirely suburban and very low density.

There are many young people moving to Detroit, searing for an urban lifestyle closer than home. I've convinced many people to stay in the state and choose Detroit instead of moving away [[for most of them, staying in Oakland County or the suburbs was not an option). Especialy in this economy, where moving away to another state to find an urban lifestyle is becoming less viable. But people still are seeking that. Some choose Ferndale, but many many more choose Detroit. And Detroit has much to offer, and although it is no Chicago, you can have a fully urban lifestyle [[including walking places and using public transit!) right now, right here. I would go so far to say there are many more "creative class" people in Detroit than Ferndale, RO, and Bham combined. Not to mention Hamtramck, which is basically a neighborhood of Detroit [[its almost exactly the same size as Midtown).

I am saying this all out of experience as a young person who moved from the burbs to the city almost two years ago.

as far as hummer...
It is completely reasonable for Hummer to move their HQ to Detroit, even though I agree with sentiments against Hummer as a brand [[in fact, I hate Hummer). But I wouldn't mind seeing more office workers Downtown at all. Sure, many of the employees at Hummer live in Oakland County, but it is still the auto industry. I highly doubt Oakland County will attract many new businesses, and especialy not many relocations. New industries and development is to be centered in urban areas... Oakland County unfortunatly not urban. Hummer needs to remake itself because it isn't the most popular brand. Relocating to an urban center, and being more urban-oriented will help it profit.

[Russix]

In the world of crawford, Oakland County is an island, immune from the hardships that is plaguing the United States. Oakland County is making money hand over fist and jobs are plentiful under the leadership of Lord Patterson.

It's actually quite the opposite, since Oakland County was a larger source of economic activity for the region, job losses have been higher there. I don't think higher paid salaries slid as much because companies usually just let people go and make the remaining people pick up the slack instead of trying to make across the board reductions like with the UAW.

[MotownSpartan]

I would go so far to say there are many more "creative class" people in Detroit than Ferndale, RO, and Bham combined.

I guess it depends on how you define creative class but that assertion is way off base. There is really no comparing the vibrancy of Royal Oak on a Tuesday evening to even downtown on a non-event weekend evening.

Most people in RO/Ferndale would probably prefer to live in a cool area of the city if it was even remotely comparable [[in terms of safety, services, etc.) to the places they live now.

[MotownSpartan]

Sorry, got off topic. Getting back to Hummer, there are studies out there that find that over the life-cycle of the car [[including energy costs to produce/scrap/maintain) the car a Hummer H3 is more efficient than the Prius.

"The dirty little secret about hybrids is that their batteries and extensive use of aluminium parts make them costly to build in energy terms as well as financial terms. One life-cycle assessment claims that, from factory floor to scrap heap, a Prius consumes more energy even than a Hummer III" - http://www.economist.com/science/dis...ory_id=8686992

[iheartthed]

You are 100% certian? LOL. That is pretty damn certian.

I must not know what the "creative class" is if you say most would prefer Oakland County over Detroit.

The people who I thought were "creative class"--young, middle class, and attracted to urbanity-- are fleeing not only Oakland County, but the entire state. I can say for a fact thi is true because countless people I know have fled the state, all agreing on the medoicrity, hemogeny and boringness of Oakland County. Some come to Detroit proper, but most leave to cities like Chicago, Portland, Philly, this list goes on, etc, etc, No matter how much you might wish, Oakland County is not the first place that pops into people's heads when they think urban. It dominated by boring suburban tract home development, strip plazzas, office parks, and malls, all sounded by huge parking lots and freeways. Sure, there are more urban-like areas, such as Ferndale, Royal Oak, and Birmingham-- but these make up for a small minority. The largest city in Oakland County is Farmington Hills, which entirely suburban and very low density.

There are many young people moving to Detroit, searing for an urban lifestyle closer than home. I've convinced many people to stay in the state and choose Detroit instead of moving away [[for most of them, staying in Oakland County or the suburbs was not an option). Especialy in this economy, where moving away to another state to find an urban lifestyle is becoming less viable. But people still are seeking that. Some choose Ferndale, but many many more choose Detroit. And Detroit has much to offer, and although it is no Chicago, you can have a fully urban lifestyle [[including walking places and using public transit!) right now, right here. I would go so far to say there are many more "creative class" people in Detroit than Ferndale, RO, and Bham combined. Not to mention Hamtramck, which is basically a neighborhood of Detroit [[its almost exactly the same size as Midtown).

I am saying this all out of experience as a young person who moved from the burbs to the city almost two years ago.

as far as hummer...
It is completely reasonable for Hummer to move their HQ to Detroit, even though I agree with sentiments against Hummer as a brand [[in fact, I hate Hummer). But I wouldn't mind seeing more office workers Downtown at all. Sure, many of the employees at Hummer live in Oakland County, but it is still the auto industry. I highly doubt Oakland County will attract many new businesses, and especialy not many relocations. New industries and development is to be centered in urban areas... Oakland County unfortunatly not urban. Hummer needs to remake itself because it isn't the most popular brand. Relocating to an urban center, and being more urban-oriented will help it profit.

I have a friend who I met here in NYC who would fit the yuppie/"creative class" definition [[as do I). He's from Toronto and moved to the Detroit area for work. He lived in Royal Oak because he'd heard that it was way too dangerous to live in Detroit proper. He spent all of his time in Royal Oak and Birmingham [[and Ann Arbor to a minor extent) for the same reason. As soon as he got the opportunity, he fled the area and moved to NYC... Having never really spent any time in Detroit proper.

The Detroit area could have really used a resident like him: well educated, young, highly skilled, but the lifestyle was unattractive. Touting Royal Oak and Birmingham as your urban center is just putting lipstick on a pig. And let me explicitly make the point that he didn't move away from the city of Detroit, he moved away from Oakland County.

I have another friend who I went to college with that stayed in the Detroit area after school for a job. Within a year he was searching for jobs in other urban areas, and not long after his one year was up he had left to go back to Chicago. He also lived in Oakland County.

People are voting with their feet. The OC may be what's hot for the baby boomers, but everyone else just thinks it's boring.

[crawford]

You didn't need all those words to explain an useless point. The article was referring to "decreasing" incomes not "increasing" incomes in Michigan. Since Oakland Co. incomes "dropped only slighty" that means they have lost income since the last survey was given. Got it!!!!

Exactly! Finally you bother to look at the Census numbers, and you see that Oakland County is doing comparatively well.

Oakland's County's income dropped slightly, and less so than the vast majority of metropolitan counties throughout the U.S. This means it is doing very well considering the global economic crisis.

Glad we agree, and you now understand that Oakland County is in much better shape than Wayne County, Macomb County, and the rest of the state.

[crawford]

New industries and development is to be centered in urban areas... Oakland County unfortunatly not urban.

LOL, please name ONE area on earth where "new industries and development is to be centered in urban areas". You can't name one.

Even in healthy cities, the bulk of new industry and development is on the periphery. Go to Paris, Tokyo, Mexico City.

And while Oakland County isn't urban, neither is Detroit! Detroit nowadays is a sprawling, car-oriented mess, and has no higher densities than the inner suburbs.

How is 6 Mile Road denser than Ferndale? How is Southwest Detroit denser than Dearborn? How is the East Side denser than Grosse Pointe?

[crawford]

People are voting with their feet. The OC may be what's hot for the baby boomers, but everyone else just thinks it's boring.

Uh, no.

I know a high school friend who just moved from San Francisco to Birmingham, MI. So what?

He's thrilled to be in a place he can actually afford, and has a great job.

Sorry, I'll trust the official Census data more than your anecdotal observations.

[R8RBOB]

Where's the Troy or Auburn Hills of Wayne County or Macomb County? That's right, there is no such place.

Ah, man you had to bring up Troy and just now on Channel 4 they were talking about how Troy is going through hard times. Laying off 50 cops, properties with open lease space signs, K-Mart property invaded by weeds, closing the library, restaurants not making the money they used to make, city ready to make cuts and more cuts. Why did you bring up Troy again? Oh, Troy was suppose to be "the Emerald City" and Wayne and Macomb didn't have such a city. Sucks to be them, right?

[crawford]

Ah, man you had to bring up Troy and just now on Channel 4 they were talking about how Troy is going through hard times. Laying off 50 cops, properties with open lease space signs, K-Mart property invaded by weeds, closing the library, restaurants not making the money they used to make, city ready to make cuts and more cuts. Why did you bring up Troy again? Oh, Troy was suppose to be "the Emerald City" and Wayne and Macomb didn't have such a city. Sucks to be them, right?

You obviously have no argument and so are making up lies.

1. Please SOURCE a claim that Troy is laying off 50 cops. That would be almost their entire police force.

2. Wow, a property with a for-lease sign! That's completely unique to Troy! I have never seen a for-lease sign before.

3. Please SOURCE a claim that Troy is shutting their library down. This is obvious bull--- that you just made up.

4. The KMart property is owned by a private developer. They aren't building anything because A. They don't know what to build and B. The credit markets are frozen throughout the globe.

The fact that the KMart site won't be developed anytime soon leads one to no different assumptions about a locale than any other place on the planet where credit markets have delayed plans.

[R8RBOB]

After reading your postings crawford, I can tell you may have lived in Oakland County but you don't live there now. Your postings reflect the old Oakland County when at one time they were the envy of the area. Fortune 500 businesses like K-Mart, Delphi, Chrysler, Compuware employed thousands of workers, residents buying houses from Southfield to Oakland Township, good schools, etc...Life was good. I can't argue against that. Sure I lived in Detroit but hey it was not like I was dodging bullets every day and getting my ass kicked. Life for me in the "D" was good also.

That said, the Oakland County that you remembered so fondly is not the same. Thousands of jobs have disappeared, homes have been foreclosed. The tax base is not the same tax base from 10 years ago. For years L. Brooks Patterson fought against renewing taxes for Cobo. Patterson woke up in a new world where Oakland County have to partner up. Sorry to break it to you and many Oakland County residents on this site will tell you that it is not the same as you remembered it.

[R8RBOB]

You obviously have no argument and so are making up lies.

1. Please SOURCE a claim that Troy is laying off 50 cops. That would be almost their entire police force.

2. Wow, a property with a for-lease sign! That's completely unique to Troy! I have never seen a for-lease sign before.

3. Please SOURCE a claim that Troy is shutting their library down. This is obvious bull--- that you just made up.

4. The KMart property is owned by a private developer. They aren't building anything because A. They don't know what to build and B. The credit markets are frozen throughout the globe.

The fact that the KMart site won't be developed anytime soon leads one to no different assumptions about a locale than any other place on the planet where credit markets have delayed plans.

No snarky response because I can't convince you that black is white and white is black, so I recommend that you go to clickondetroit.com later this evening to check out the video. It is not up because the news piece came on during the 5:30 broadcast, however, any poster who was watching WDIV at 5:30 please tell crawford that the news story is not a lie. Thank you.

[PCE]

"Troy is in such serious financial trouble the city may have to close it's library, community center, museum and nature center and lay off more than one third of it's staff, the city manager has said."

From todays online Freep

[crawford]

Sorry to break it to you and many Oakland County residents on this site will tell you that it is not the same as you remembered it.

No, sorry to burst your bubble, but Oakland County is basically the same as always. In fact, where I grew up [[Birmingham area) looks better than it has ever looked. They're still doing teardowns and new construction commercial projects, even now.

It's Detroit that has gone further down the toilet in recent years. The last stable areas in the city are now being abandoned as we speak. NW Detroit was stable as recent as 5 years ago. It's now falling apart and being ravaged.

[crawford]

"Troy is in such serious financial trouble the city may have to close it's library, community center, museum and nature center and lay off more than one third of it's staff, the city manager has said."

From todays online Freep

Uh, no.

Try again with a source, not a political claim with vague threats.

Please show me where the library is being closed and where the police department is being disbanded.

[R8RBOB]

"Troy is in such serious financial trouble the city may have to close it's library, community center, museum and nature center and lay off more than one third of it's staff, the city manager has said."

From todays online Freep

Thanks PCE. I am going to link the story for crawford to read though I think he will say that the Free Press is lying because Troy is the Emerald City with the road leading into the city paved in gold.

http://www.freep.com/article/2009092...ibrary-closure

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/21089185/detail.html

[PCE]

Thank you for posting the link R&RBOB. I haven't figured out how to post a link yet.

[Detroitej72]

Uh, no.

Try again with a source, not a political claim with vague threats.

Please show me where the library is being closed and where the police department is being disbanded.

Looks like you got burned there, Skippy. Its on Freep.com as we speak, they may lay off 47 police officers, close the library, etc.

[R8RBOB]

Thank you for posting the link R&RBOB. I haven't figured out how to post a link yet.

No problem PCE. I found the story on clickondetroit.com as well. They don't have the video up yet but the story will do. My man Glenn Rush Jr. aka crawford had breathed so much helium on BizarroWorld he won't believe his beloved Oakland County is suffering through hard times. It's funny though because I didn't believe someone could be so clueless about the financial situation here in Michigan.

[PCE]

I wish we could somehow get rid of this suburb/city thing and start thinking regionally. The ship is sinking.

[MotownSpartan]

I have a friend who I met here in NYC who would fit the yuppie/"creative class" definition [[as do I). He's from Toronto and moved to the Detroit area for work. He lived in Royal Oak because he'd heard that it was way too dangerous to live in Detroit proper. He spent all of his time in Royal Oak and Birmingham [[and Ann Arbor to a minor extent) for the same reason. As soon as he got the opportunity, he fled the area and moved to NYC... Having never really spent any time in Detroit proper.

The Detroit area could have really used a resident like him: well educated, young, highly skilled, but the lifestyle was unattractive. Touting Royal Oak and Birmingham as your urban center is just putting lipstick on a pig. And let me explicitly make the point that he didn't move away from the city of Detroit, he moved away from Oakland County.

I think this is a great story that could really use another layer of analysis. My theory, granted it's supported only by anecdotal evidence, is that most of the people in the Ferndale/Royal Oak corridor [[or at least a lot of them) would prefer to be living in the City of Detroit proper in a truly urban area. However, a lot of them aren't just "scared off" from the city by unfounded rumours, the city blatantly isn't as safe, doesn't offer the amenities/services, and generally can not compete with these locales for the vast majority of people. If Detroit could even compete and be even remotely close in terms of the balancing factors of where to live it's my contention a lot of people from these inner-ring burbs would flood into the city.

So your friend probably didn't just not live in Detroit because he was told unfounded rumours, he probably drove around and saw the neighborhoods himself and investigated the taxes, groceries, stores, etc. and found that it wasn't adequate.

It's similar to the problem the Big 3 had recently, if they could even make a car that was remotely competitive with some of the foreign brands, even if it was just a little worse, a lot of people might have gone for the American car. However, they just put out an uncompetitive product. The truth is that Detroit is putting out an uncompetitive product in almost all regards [[hence it's situation right now). Now I believe in Detroit, love the city and think there are waaay too many haters in the 'burbs who have no idea of all the cool things going on in the city but if I take my rose colored glasses off for a second I immediately recognize why I too just made the decision to live in an inner-ring Oakland County burb over Detroit even though I was dead set on moving into the city when I knew my job was going to take me to the Detroit region.

[crawford]

Looks like you got burned there, Skippy. Its on Freep.com as we speak, they may lay off 47 police officers, close the library, etc.

No, looks like you hate Troy because it's successful and growing, and so make up scenarios based on hearsay from budget negotiations.

Every city has budget negotitaions with tough political talk about what happens if a deal isn't passed in time. If A isn't passed, then B happens.

There will be no closed library, and no dismantling of the police force, and you know it.