China unveils massive health care plan.

[ccbatson]

Read Mark Steyn's book "America Alone", it will be an eye opener that you sorely need.

[rb336]

there is some factual data in America Alone, but 95% of the book is full of your usual right-wing BS hyperbole

[oladub]

The relationship between government health care and birth rates is slim. Liberals have fewer children than conservatives. In Europe, Muslims are social conservatives and have more children. It is the choice of Europeans to have la dolce vita with paid for heath care and an underpaid servant class of immigrants and collective taxes to help them through their dying years. Who needs to be changing diapers? This system has worked out pretty well for a generation or two. As the indiginous European population is consequently replaced by families of immigrants, some think Europe, or Eurabia's, culture and governance will change too.

Muslim women in Tunisia average only 1.7 children in Tunisia but have more children in France. Government incentives to have more children in France are more significant to poor immigrants than French women who have more career and lifestyle opions. So these incentives are working to replace the dwindling population of Europe with non-Europeans.

Whether the rapidly expanding Muslim population of Europe becomes secular or establishes Sharia law and turns Europe into an expanded Bosnia is anyone's guess. The question is if Muslim Europeans choose to vote to continue to coddle and diaper the aging native European population in its old age or designate government funds for other purposes.

The liberal baby bust

[rb336]

jeez -- more baby-worship BS. there are farrrrrrrrr too many roadblocks to europe becoming a "sharia law" society. this is nothing but more xenophobic right-wing fear mongering

"Eurabia"

give me a break

[gibran]

we need to pay attention to this:



Yesterday morning, eight doctors, lawyers and other activists stood up to Senator Max Baucus.
And the private health insurance industry.
And the corporate liberals in Congress.
The eight activists demanded that single payer - everybody in, nobody out, free choice of doctor and hospital - be put on the table.
And as a result they were arrested.
And charged with a so-called "disruption of Congress."
The Associated Press, Wall Street Journal, Politico, Democracy Now and National Public Radio all carried stories about the protest.

C-Span carried it live.
And it was widely disseminated on the Internet.
Baucus crafted a hearing to kick off the health care debate in the Senate yesterday where 15 witnesses would be at the table to discuss health care reform.
The insurance industry was at the table.
The Business Roundtable was at the table.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce was at the table.
Blue Cross Blue Shield was at the table.
The Heritage Foundation was at the table.
And corporate liberals like Andy Stern, Ron Pollack, and AARP were at the table.
But not one person who stood for what the majority of Americans, doctors, nurses, and health economists want - single payer - was at the table.
Not one.
When I heard about this corporate line-up last week, I called the office of Senator Baucus.

And politely asked that, as a matter of fairness, a single payer doctor be allowed to testify.

I was told - no way, Ralph.
The deal is done.
So, yesterday, at 10 a.m., the Baucus Eight, led by Single Payer Action and other single payer groups, took to the Senate Finance Committee.
And directly and respectfully confronted a room full of corporate lobbyists.
And corporate controlled Senators.
And again asked that a group of doctors who were in the room to support Medicare for all be allowed to testify.
The answer again - no, no, and no.
Remember what Senator Richard Durbin said last week?

Durbin said that the banks "own" the Congress.

To which we might add - the health insurance industry and the drug industry own the Senate.
Faxing, writing, and e-mailing is not getting it done.
Enough is enough.
Time for action.
This is a winnable issue.
But the American people need to focus on 535 members of Congress.
And get mobilized.
Single Payer Action is at your service to get the job done.
So, donate now -- $8, $18, $80, or $800.
To honor the Baucus Eight - who all wore black yesterday in memory of the more than 20,000 Americans who - according to the Institute of Medicine - die every year from lack of health insurance.
And to fuel a citizen action movement that will deliver single payer to the American people - sooner not later.
Together, we can break the corporate stranglehold on Congress.
And deliver health care for all.
Single payer.
More comprehensive. More efficient. More humane. More peace of mind.
Let's get it done.

Onward to single payer,

[rb336]

Go Ralph, Go

[oladub]

Very good parroting of Mark Steyn. Now, answer this: Why has Bangladesh's [[a muslim country) birthrate dropped from 6.4 in the 70's to 2.9 in 2006? Because of liberals?

Have any statistics on when Europe [[current population over twice that of the US) will depopulate? My guess at the current rate that that would probably not occur in my great-grandchildren's lifetime.

Does it bother any of the dittoheads that Mark Steyn called himself “a Zionist neocon Bush shill” and that he refers to Vietnamese as "gooks"? I realize you Republicans are anti-intellectual and all, but don't you have SOME standards?

Here is a Mark Steyn article on demographics for comparison. There are similarities.
It's the Demography, Stupid
The real reason the West is in danger of extinction.

Your previously posted link from Reason was an attempt to compare apples with oranges. The Reason article was saying that worldwide there is no shortage of births. Steyn, on the other hand, laments the possible death of European culture as we know it because of local demographics. My response was that if that's what Europeans choose to vote for, that is their business.

Your question about Bangledesh is irrelevent to to the fact that conservative, usually religious, cultures tend to have more children than liberal/secular cultures. You didn't provide information about whether conservative religious or liberal/secular groups in Bangledesh were having more children. The USA Today piece had to do with relative birth rates within one country. My guess is that both groups have fewer children but that the conservatives still have more.

I said nothing about Europe depopulating and I don't think Steyn does either. Europe's population is being sustained by immigration. The native European population is declining but that is not the same as saying that Europe's population is declining.

Your ad hominem reasoning and rant against Steyn and Republicans again miss the mark. And, as previously stated in response to one of your delusions, I voted for Nader and a third party candidate the last two times out which hardly makes me a Republican.

[rb336]

there are serious issues with European populations, mostly in the minds of extremists. Sweden has a net migration of around 1.6 per 1000 population annually and most of that is from European countries.

I find Steyn's book to be totally disingenuous.The europeans are not going to sit back and allow sharia law to take over their liberal polities, his work [[this article included) is full of fear-mongering hyperbole and short on fact

[Detroitej72]

The relationship between government health care and birth rates is slim. Liberals have fewer children than conservatives. In Europe, Muslims are social conservatives and have more children. It is the choice of Europeans to have la dolce vita with paid for heath care and an underpaid servant class of immigrants and collective taxes to help them through their dying years. Who needs to be changing diapers? This system has worked out pretty well for a generation or two. As the indiginous European population is consequently replaced by families of immigrants, some think Europe, or Eurabia's, culture and governance will change too.

Muslim women in Tunisia average only 1.7 children in Tunisia but have more children in France. Government incentives to have more children in France are more significant to poor immigrants than French women who have more career and lifestyle opions. So these incentives are working to replace the dwindling population of Europe with non-Europeans.

Whether the rapidly expanding Muslim population of Europe becomes secular or establishes Sharia law and turns Europe into an expanded Bosnia is anyone's guess. The question is if Muslim Europeans choose to vote to continue to coddle and diaper the aging native European population in its old age or designate government funds for other purposes.

The liberal baby bust

I have read in multiple sources that the reason for Muslims having larger families in traditionally non-Muslim countries is to outnumber non-Muslims, then change the laws to their liking. It's the same philosophy thats followed by Palestinians in Israel, outnumber Jews and then change the policies.

I'm not sure how accurate that line of thinking is, but it leads one to wonder.

[ccbatson]

You can try to discredit the sources [[Mark Steyn) for various irrational and Ad hominem reasons, but that will not change the facts that these are the fertility rates which he presents as raw numbers above, or below the replacement rate of 2.1. Interpretation can be debated, the numbers cannot.

[rb336]

Bats, there was no ad hominem attack. it is perfectly valid to point out the lack of credentials. the tone of his comments is also fair game. your support of these hate mongers like steyn and whiner, raises serious questions

[oladub]

Bats, there was no ad hominem attack. it is perfectly valid to point out the lack of credentials. the tone of his comments is also fair game. your support of these hate mongers like steyn and whiner, raises serious questions

No ad hominem attacks?

“An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim�.-wikipedia

Examples - So far, Mark Steyn has been referred to on this thread as a Canadian high school drop-out, former DJ, art critic, disingenuous, racist asshole with no qualifications whatsoever, and hate monger. Anyone who garners that level of ad hominem must be getting under some skin. So I decided to find out exactly what this high school dropout had to say that earned such animosity.

From “The future belongs to Islam� by Mark Steyn. This article got Steyn into a lot of hot water with Canadian authorities trying to enforce Canadian verbal hate crime censorship laws. This is an example of an entire subject area where discussion is almost off limit when government gets involves with censorship. I have cut and pasted parts of the article that address the relationship between the welfare state and demographic die-offs in which Steyn links the relevance of fertility to the debate about health care.

Demographic decline and the unsustainability of the social democratic state are closely related. In America, politicians upset about the federal deficit like to complain that we're piling up debts our children and grandchildren will have to pay off. But in Europe the unaffordable entitlements are in even worse shape: there are no kids or grandkids to stick it to.
You might formulate it like this:
Age + Welfare = Disaster for you;
Youth + Will = Disaster for whoever gets in your way.

Islam has youth and will, Europe has age and welfare.

For states in demographic decline with ever more lavish social programs, the question is a simple one: can they get real? Can they grow up before they grow old? If not, then they'll end their days in societies dominated by people with a very different world view.

The state has gradually annexed all the responsibilities of adulthood -- health care, child care, care of the elderly -- to the point where it's effectively severed its citizens from humanity's primal instincts, not least the survival instinct. The perfect storm the Europeans will face within this decade, because their lavish welfare states are unsustainable on their post-Christian birth rates.

According to the Japan Times, depopulation is "presenting the government with pressing challenges on the social and economic front, including ensuring provision of social security services and securing the labour force." Is it likely an ever smaller number of young people will want to spend their active years looking after an ever greater number of old people.

Europe, like Japan, has catastrophic birth rates and a swollen pampered elderly class determined to live in defiance of economic reality. But the difference is that on the Continent the successor population is already in place and the only question is how bloody the transfer of real estate will be.

"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

“There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe -- without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.� -Col. Gadhafi

[rb336]

a simplistic wiki definition. here is a better one from the skeptic's dictionary:

"Ad hominem is Latin for "to the man." The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim. The ad hominem fallacy is often confused with the legitimate provision of evidence that a person is not to be trusted. Calling into question the reliability of a witness is relevant when the issue is whether to trust the witness. It is irrelevant, however, to call into question the reliability or morality or anything else about a person when the issue is whether that person's reasons for making a claim are good enough reasons to support the claim."

What we have here can certainly be classified as "the legitimate provision of evidence that a person is not to be trusted."

the book is what I called disingenuous [[as in giving a false appearance of simple frankness) -- and it is

[ccbatson]

Not excused...Europe's socialism is in progressive decline, 20 years ago is not adequate.

[oladub]

Rb says “What we have here can certainly be classified as "the legitimate provision of evidence that a person is not to be trusted."

Rb, That may be your opinion except you provided no evidence to back up your opinion. I might feel that way about Obama but making ad hominem attacks against Obama would only suggest that I have no facts to otherwise make my point. I prefer to point out, for instance, that he passed an executive order yesterday reducing the transparency of his records rather than calling him names. Similarly, attacking the content of an author's thesis by calling him a Canadian high school drop-out, former DJ, art critic, disingenuous, racist asshole with no qualifications whatsoever, and hate monger does nothing to disprove anything he says. Slimshady did provide something about the general birthrate going down in Bangladesh but no one countered the thesis of either the USA Today article or Steyn claiming that demographics effects the ability of a society to pay for welfare programs. Steyn even carried on for awhile about the situation in Japan. Maybe talking about demographic problems in Japan somehow makes him a racist? The point is that if there are not enough people paying for collective social services, the services must be reduced. The alternative of importing a replacement population has its own problems.

Slimshady, Looking down your nose at people without formal educations and others who haven't hung out in Europe while imagining out loud that you are going over heads with your humor suggests where you are coming from. Steyn, who has lived and worked in Europe, has established himself to the annoyance of your admired credentialed critics sporting doctorates. Not only did Steyn, leave “school at 16 and worked as a disc-jockey before becoming musical theater critic� as both you and Wikipedia mentioned, Wikipedia goes on to list magazines and newspapers that have published his writings worldwide.


Please note Steyn's last two paragraphs quoting Mullah Krekar and Gadhafi. They aren't Canadian high school drop outs although they do support Steyn's thesis.

[ccbatson]

When incapable of arguing the facts...liberals attack the person stating them.

[Detroitej72]

When incapable of arguing the facts...liberals attack the person stating them.

The same can be said of conservatives as well.

[ccbatson]

Not in a large scale manner...and not here on Dyes.

[rb336]

When incapable of arguing the facts...liberals attack the person stating them.

bats, the problem with your comment is that YOU consistently argue counter to the known facts as presented by inclusion of sources, yet you haven't yet provided a single fact to back up your BS.

and ola, the comments about steyn's lack of credentials is certainly fair game. If he were testifying in court, and in this case he is testifying in the court of public opinion, the opposing lawyer would be negligent if he did not assail his credentials. not an opinion, a fact.

"X" positions himself as an expert on subject "Y"
"X" has no credentials that support his position as an expert on "Y"
exposing the lack of credentials is definitively NOT an adhom

[oladub]

Rb, You are championing the status quo and joining the company of history's inquisitors, rulers, and MSM employees by suggesting that speech should be vetted and subordinated to the opinions of the credentialed and courts. But the court of public opinion has recognized and allowed Steyn to flourish. Meanwhile, you are in some hypothetical court sniffing about trying to weigh Steyn's pedigree.

However, if you do come up with some statistics that contradict those that Steyn uses; including Gadhafi's and Mullah Krekar's, please do provide them to make your case that demography will not affect the future of welfare state benefits in Europe, Japan, or elsewhere.

[rb336]

Rb, You are championing the status quo and joining the company of history's inquisitors, rulers, and MSM employees by suggesting that speech should be vetted and subordinated to the opinions of the credentialed and courts. But the court of public opinion has recognized and allowed Steyn to flourish. Meanwhile, you are in some hypothetical court sniffing about trying to weigh Steyn's pedigree.

However, if you do come up with some statistics that contradict those that Steyn uses; including Gadhafi's and Mullah Krekar's, please do provide them to make your case that demography will not affect the future of welfare state benefits in Europe, Japan, or elsewhere.

i did. so did slimshady. sorry, but what, exactly is the source of steyn's stats? does he even have a source?

I am of the opinion that hotheads spewing BS like Steyn does do not deserve the respect awarded to actual researchers

Steyn has NO REFERENCES in anything he writes. a simple check of any decent demographics site will show you his fertility rate for Europe is wrong. His conclusions are baseless -- the whole 2.1 fertility rate thing started off as religious right propoganda against the zero-population growth crowd

[oladub]

[[a)So you are saying that no one questioned Obama's credentials during the last election? Of course they did, as they should have. [[b)Since when has accomplishment and credentials been thrown out the window?

[[a)No. [[b)Never said they were

Umm, yes. Did you READ the Reason article?

Yes, please re-read post #65.

Yet those social services have not been reduced. Therefore disproving your claim. Spending is all about priorities. Plus, you argued that the overall population of Europe itself is NOT decreasing so you are arguing against yourself.

Steyn is saying that services will have to be reduced if the European or Japanese population drops. He also expresses his concern that the expanding Muslim populace might have other spending priorities. Those thoughts do not argue against each other.

Yeah, I guess me thinking that people should have finished High School before writing a treatise on the future of the Western world makes me an elitist. Yes, I do value education, intellect, and accomplishment. I do look down my nose at bad science and populism.

Although you may value education, intellect, and accomplishment you have not presented any numbers to, for instance counter those of Krekar and Gadhafi. Steyn, on the other hand, seems to have done a good job of educating himself and obviously is competing at a high level intellectually and in terms of accomplishment. Krekar and Gudhafi are good sources. [[rb, please note) One is probably the most well known Muslim cleric in Norway and the other is the head of a nation. Are you suggesting they are lying or do you have better statistics than they do?

So what? So have hundreds of millions of Europeans. Didn't you just infer that "hanging out in Europe" doesn't make ME an expert - but now it somehow makes Steyn an expert?

No, quite the opposite. You crowed in post #74 that you had been to Europe twice and asked if I had. I, in turn, pointed out that Steyn had lived and worked in Europe. You portray Steyn as a Canadian high-school dropout. He is that but since then became a columnist in prominant European newspapers. So if you have two 'been to Europe' stars on your forehead, Steyn deserves many more.

[ccbatson]

Slim, it is very simple, apply rational thought and logic to the content and then make the conclusions on the merit.

[ccbatson]

Nah...either you are lying about applying the process as I describe it, or you don't understand it as it is so foreign to you [[being a liberal).

[rb336]

Slim, it is very simple, apply rational thought and logic to the content and then make the conclusions on the merit.

oh, and by the way, throw out all evidence that proves something counter to what Bats rand vision considers "rational thought"