Poverty & Power

[ccbatson]

Check again, he did divest.

[rb336]

Check again, he did divest.

whether he did or did not, technically, even he didn't know as their investments are put in a blind trust. more importantly, his children, his friends and his other relatives did NOT

[Lorax]

Nor did the now-famous off-shore tax evasion havens set up by the Cheney family to continue to engage in insider trading with the corporations hired by the fed to execute the wars. Billions ended up in Cheney's pockets, as well as Bush's.

Gannon and I are familiar with the Paraguay land deal where the Bush Crime Family has set up their escape hatch compound since Paraguay has no extradition treaty with the US.

Wonder how it feels for Republicans to have supported and voted for our own versions of Augusto Pinochet?

[rb336]

Wonder how it feels for Republicans to have supported and voted for our own versions of Augusto Pinochet?

considering that many of them consider him a hero and martyr, probably quite good

[elganned]

The Cheney example was only hypothetical. I could have used anyone's name, but I thought it might be fun to stir up some actual emotion.

Cc, you stil haven't explained by what mechanism government growth would be kept in check.

Also, you still haven't answered how government pay would be structured and/or decided upon to make it "market-based", since there is no market with government being a monopoly.

And you still haven't expanded on how, if individual selfishness is the cardinal virtue, persons in government would be prevented from utilizing whatever power they have to enrich themselves at the expense of the citizenry.

Discuss. Objectivism is your religion--oh, excuse me, philosophy; this is your chance to expound upon it and convince us all.

[ccbatson]

Read Leonard Peikhoff's book on Objectivism if you want the full answer. The quick answer is that the moment that any influence outside of the individual's free decision to preserve and protect his/her rights to his/her own thoughts and the product of said thoughts is slavery....Whatever the reason, once this boundary is breached, by various slippery slpoe methods, the individual has lost the right to liberty...Altruism is the path to this sad state of affairs. Not giving, not generosity, not sharing....Altruism, where the interests of another are elevated above the vital interests of the individual by coercion, or force.

[Lorax]

What I read from Batts, is that his definition of altruism involves some sort of life-threatening sacrifice which benefits the other person at a deficit to the one being altruistic.

I don't know if the followers of Christ would agree with this, since "Spartacus" [[film version) put his life in danger offering Christ water while carrying the crucifix through the town square. I guess the answer was to let Christ go thirsty.

Is anyone asking such a sacrifice? Did it somehow endanger JD Rockefeller when he handed out silver dollars during the depression? It made him look cheap, but certainly his next meal didn't hinge on whether or not he passed out too many silver dollars.

[ccbatson]

That is correct, Objectivism is at odds [[and in the right) with most religious altruistic urgings.

[elganned]

I ask for specifics, Cc, and you answer in platitudes and statements of dogma. You remind me of the priests who often answered my questions by saying, "Well, that's a mystery of Faith."

I asked three questions, but to keep it simple for you I'll ask them one at a time. Wouldn't want to overload your system.

So again, for the record: By what mechanism would government growth be kept in check in an Objectivist scheme?

[rb336]

The quick answer is that the moment that any influence outside of the individual's free decision to preserve and protect his/her rights to his/her own thoughts and the product of said thoughts is slavery

so, if a group of individuals decides to protect those rights against an overwhelming power, say, a corporation, by way of forming a union, you would be for that?

[Detroitej72]

Check again, he did divest.

Yeah, blind trusts are divested from a person. Would you like to buy some swamp land in Antarctica, by chance?

[rb336]

Just another little reality check from m-w online:


Main Entry: di·vest
Pronunciation: \dī-ˈvest, də-\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: alteration of devest
Date: 1623
1 a : to deprive or dispossess especially of property, authority, or title b : to undress or strip especially of clothing, ornament, or equipment c : rid, free
2 : to take away from a person

he may or may not have been divested of his stock, he wasn't supposed to know either way

[ccbatson]

You can just say "ccbatson is right, as usual" folks...it will save you a lot of time and effort.

[Lorax]

You can just say "ccbatson is right, as usual" folks...it will save you a lot of time and effort.

Living the fantasy.

[Detroitej72]

You can just say "ccbatson is right, as usual" folks...it will save you a lot of time and effort.

Wow, what an arrogant statement.

[Lorax]

Wasn't that arrogant?

It reminds me of a "doctor" my mother had back in the 70's who determined that the lesions on one of her lungs were cancerous, without a biopsy, and said that they needed to "hack that lung out".

A second, sane opinion treated them with anitbiotics and they vanished within 30 days.

I so hope he's not a real "doctor", which I really don't think he is, and if he is, then his patients need to run for the hills.

[elganned]

Cc, I'll be the first to admit that you're right, if it ever happens.

In the meantime, since there's going to be such a long wait, what's the answer to my question? [[Post #59, if you're palsied fingers can scroll up that far.)

[elganned]

Bump. Still waiting for an answer, Cc: What mechanism under Objectivism would check the growth of government?

[ccbatson]

Elganned...read Leonard Peikhoff's book on Objectivism. The core principle is the sanctity of an individual's rights of ownership to that which is of his/her mind and the products of said intellectual property. Government has a role in protecting this right by laws that insure just commerce and defense of a safe haven for free individuals. Nothing else is granted as a power of government and therefore government expansion is checked.

[elganned]

More pontificating about the system without answering the question. We already know how the system works in theory; you have amply repeated the same tired slogans until we could all probably repeat them in our sleep.

As an engineer, I'm interested in the theory but I am also interestd in application: How does it work? What is the mechanism? What are the tools? Saying that a representative government is the best doesn't help when it comes down to figuring out how people are going to go about voting. Then you get into things like one man one vote, secret ballot, poll watchers from each party, registration, and the rest.

Since government is composed of people, and people are basically selfish--a sterling quality under Objectivism--what prevents the people in government from taking what isn't granted? And please refrain from stating more theory; I want to know the process, not the outcome.

[Lorax]

Nobody wants to read Lenny Peckersoff's so called "book", since it has about as much relevance as a bag of flaming catshit.

[ccbatson]

If you cared to be knowledgeable in that subject and not look like a complete fool when discussing it, you would seek the appropriate knowledge from the appropriate source.

[Lorax]

I have offered the most cogent posts on this thread, in my view- bags of flaming catshit included.

[elganned]

Still haven't seen anything on the process, CC. Does that indicate--as I suspect--that you don't have one?

[Lorax]

Looks like CC is napping in the Batcave.

Any persistent plea for a follow-up explaination results in him folding like a lawn chair.