Duggan: Detroit almost out of large parcels, could expand People Mover

[JonWylie]

Here's an article from Axios where they interviewed the head of DTC.

• We'll be looking into whether there are changes within the current alignment that would make sense. Moving a station, something that would allow two-way operation. The other would be is there some sort of system expansion that would support and make sense, whether it's a new development, obviously West Riverfront Park and Belle Isle are huge park assets; Henry Ford Hospital which is quite a bit outside of downtown but still in the city; the U of M Center for Innovation, Michigan Central Station … There are so many things you can imagine. My background in addition to transit is planning so it's not difficult to get me into that mode.

[Richard]

Here's an article from Axios where they interviewed the head of DTC.

He’s not wrong though,it’s different trying to establish transit in Detroit because the city is in flux and not like in persay Vancouver or any other large city that is already established density.

I kinda think they need to establish transit in the city moving forward allowing the transit to dictate development verses developing randomly then figure how to move people efficiently after the fact with transit.

You can say it will never work but that’s how they create sprawl,run a highway or road out in the middle of nowhere then the next thing you know housing developments are popping up everywhere because of easy excess to the freeway.

They are using it to direct development to where they want to.

As a city,Detroit of today is not going to be the same 5 years from now,no different then it is not the same as it was 5 years ago.

[rbdetsport]

He’s not wrong though,it’s different trying to establish transit in Detroit because the city is in flux and not like in persay Vancouver or any other large city that is already established density.

I kinda think they need to establish transit in the city moving forward allowing the transit to dictate development verses developing randomly then figure how to move people efficiently after the fact with transit.

You can say it will never work but that’s how they create sprawl,run a highway or road out in the middle of nowhere then the next thing you know housing developments are popping up everywhere because of easy excess to the freeway.

They are using it to direct development to where they want to.

As a city,Detroit of today is not going to be the same 5 years from now,no different then it is not the same as it was 5 years ago.

Richard, thank you so much for this breath of fresh air. Everything you said is spot on. We used to plan transportation in a way that, as you say, guided development. But ever since our mistakes of freeway building, we have only been reactive in the planning profession. There is room for dreaming, if we are ever going to change and prosper, it has to come of it.

[royce]

The discussion stated here.

[Genesyxx]

I like the idea of expanding the People Mover. It was built for what works then, but with new construction and neighborhoods, it would work well and would be the easiest option to expand. I believe they get their cars from Toronto 'gently-used', so it would just be adding onto the existing line and upgrading the infrastructure at a few existing stations.

[Canadian Visitor]

I believe they get their cars from Toronto 'gently-used', .

Uh, not so much, these are original Mark 1 cars, that have been in continuous service for more than 37 years.

Now, they were overhauled by maintenance staff, but the TTC's estimate had their lifespan only going to 2026 originally. I'm sure a few more years could be dragged out of them, but they are not likely to be in service in 15 years time.

[401don]

Uh, not so much, these are original Mark 1 cars, that have been in continuous service for more than 37 years.

Now, they were overhauled by maintenance staff, but the TTC's estimate had their lifespan only going to 2026 originally. I'm sure a few more years could be dragged out of them, but they are not likely to be in service in 15 years time.

Correct. Detroit acquired them for parts to repair their existing cars. Think more like shopping the scrapyard to fix your muscle car.

[stasu1213]

The 2025 Mayoral Race will be a very important one especially for the future of improving and expanding the transportation system in Detroit and the surrounding tri-county areas. Mayor Duggan is making moves to improve thr transportation system in Detroit. No one know what another candidate's views on improving or expanding the transportation system in Detroit.

[Richard]

I agree,Detroit is at a crossroads,Your Washington representative ordered you guys to not vote for the current president,so you are being forced to decide progressive or Democrat.

Yes I know,no politics,but that decision will shape the city for a long time to come.

To a large extent,the Washington side of things are to a point irrelevant,it’s the local elections where you practice true democracy.

Unless people get involved and find out who they are voting for and what interests they have,which should be yours,you call them and or email them or what ever social media crap people do today,you have to get involved otherwise you get what you get,they work for you,it’s your job to interview them for the position,it’s like anything else,if you want to get something done,you have to put the right people in place.

You want to get transit in place,ask them if they support it,if they do not,let them know they will not have your support at the voting box.

Stop viewing them as the ones that decide your future as a city,you are the people it is your city and your decision.

[Richard]

Uh, not so much, these are original Mark 1 cars, that have been in continuous service for more than 37 years.

Now, they were overhauled by maintenance staff, but the TTC's estimate had their lifespan only going to 2026 originally. I'm sure a few more years could be dragged out of them, but they are not likely to be in service in 15 years time.

Rode hard and put away wet,is the saying,I read the ridership numbers for those routes, they are impressive.

I still say it is a temporary solution or appeasement that will end up negatively impacting the cause more then it will add positive.

But I am biased,I think the people deserve better solutions and not have to settle for second best just to get it done.

[K-slice]

New article in the Freep about the PM. I still say there is no way to take the current route and make it any more useful than it already is. If the stations could be slid along the track, and placed anywhere, you would end up with something that looks 95% like what we already have...

They mention this guy Antoine Bryant as some kind of PM expert, yet he mentions moving a station "closer to Book Tower". Ummm, hey Antione, you know the main people mover garage AND Times Square Station entrance are like 20 feet from the Books door on Grand River, right..? How much closer do you think you can get it. Statements like that tell me this guy doesn't really know or care that much about the PM.

If you're spending money on it then it needs to service the stadiums of the teams that play downtown, like it used to when Cobo Arena and the Joe were in business. Otherwise minimize expenses and run it as-is.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...s/72886696007/

[Gsgeorge]

Yikes, you're right. Let's analyze what he says:

We have a stop near Grand Circus. Do we shift it 100 yards one way or another to better align where we’ve had more residential development? Could something be a little bit closer to Book Tower? Do we lengthen or broaden or add a stop between Riverfront Towers and the convention center?

- Shifting the GCP stop 100 yards east or west would take it FURTHER from Woodward Avenue, where there is a close transfer to the QLine and city bus network.
- The Times Square DPM stop is immediately behind the Book Tower, probably less than 150 feet from the door of Book Tower. It literally could not be any closer.
- Adding a stop between Riverfront Towers and Huntington Place would place a stop atop the Lodge Freeway/Jefferson interchange ramps. There is nothing between these already-close stops.

I have long been an advocate of expanding the DPM. It was built to be part of a larger system, is completely automated, and uses rolling stock and rail tech that has been successful in other cities like Vancouver. The biggest shortcoming of the DPM is that it is ONLY a central loop. Reconfiguring or expanding the central loop would perpetuate the same issues the DPM has now--namely that it doesn't go anywhere you couldn't get on foot in the same amount of time.

An expansion of the DPM should ONLY look at expanding radially along our main avenues to areas outside the downtown core. That is the only way to really make the DPM a useful part of our transit system.

[mwilbert]

I don't think literally expanding the existing people mover loop makes sense--it already takes a fair bit of time to go around the loop. I also agree that you aren't going to get much benefit out of moving the stations--maybe some slight optimization, but nothing that's going to make a big difference.

I like the idea of maybe making another loop adjacent to the existing one to cover an adjacent area, with one or two transfer points, but I have trouble finding a layout comparable in size to the existing loop that has enough destinations to make sense. If you think bigger, some kind of loop to Corktown, MCS, the western two casinos, Masonic Temple and maybe Little Caesars and the west riverfront park might make sense, but that's a lot bigger than the existing loop. I'd also like it to go to Mexicantown, but that's even farther. Just seems too ambitious, and likely impractical with this technology. Of course, if it's a separate loop, it can use separate equipment.

If someone comes up with a plan that actually makes sense, I'd love to see it.

[Gistok]

^^I think you're taking what that guy says out of context. He mentioned the Book Tower and also Huntington Place and Riverfront Towers, which already also have nearby stations.

Thinking outside the box, perhaps he's looking at having stations with access on both sides of the tracks... such as if the Book Tower had a short skybridge over to the Time Sq. Station allowing access from both sides? And maybe a skybridge from the new TLA Hotel/Apartments across Atwater St. over to the [should be renamed] Joe Louis Station? Maybe even a skybridge from the Hudson's block over to the Cadillac Station. Some ideas don't necessarily require rerouting the line, but just expanding access to other buildings near the stations.

[masterblaster]

An expansion of the DPM should ONLY look at expanding radially along our main avenues to areas outside the downtown core. That is the only way to really make the DPM a useful part of our transit system.

This is the way! A two-way extension along those major arterials that have a collection of major institutions/amenities


There is a poster named Jason who, for several years, has advocated for and laid out a detailed logistical and financing plan, for a two-way extension of the People Mover down East Jefferson to Van Dyke [[West Village neighborhood). I hope he sees this thread and responds.

Also, remember 20 years ago, Marsden Burger, the 1st manager of the People Mover, went on a mini-campaign to advocate for a two-way expansion up through Midtown and New Center, terminating at the Henry Ford Hospital. Something like that would seem feasible.

Mr. Burger's proposed route is below:
https://drcurryassociates.net/expansionroute.html

I kinda think they need to establish transit in the city moving forward allowing the transit to dictate development verses developing randomly then figure how to move people efficiently after the fact with transit.

They are using it [transit] to direct development to where they want to.

Truer words have never been spoken. This gentleman is on point often enough.

Thinking outside the box, perhaps he's looking at having stations with access on both sides of the tracks... such as if the Book Tower had a short skybridge over to the Time Sq. Station allowing access from both sides? And maybe a skybridge from the new TLA Hotel/Apartments across Atwater St. over to the [should be renamed] Joe Louis Station? Maybe even a skybridge from the Hudson's block over to the Cadillac Station. Some ideas don't necessarily require rerouting the line, but just expanding access to other buildings near the stations.

This station has already been renamed, "West Riverfront"

[stasu1213]

I agree,Detroit is at a crossroads,Your Washington representative ordered you guys to not vote for the current president,so you are being forced to decide progressive or Democrat.

Yes I know,no politics,but that decision will shape the city for a long time to come.

To a large extent,the Washington side of things are to a point irrelevant,it’s the local elections where you practice true democracy.

Unless people get involved and find out who they are voting for and what interests they have,which should be yours,you call them and or email them or what ever social media crap people do today,you have to get involved otherwise you get what you get,they work for you,it’s your job to interview them for the position,it’s like anything else,if you want to get something done,you have to put the right people in place.

You want to get transit in place,ask them if they support it,if they do not,let them know they will not have your support at the voting box.

Stop viewing them as the ones that decide your future as a city,you are the people it is your city and your decision.

Also, you want to know each elected official's voting record on funding the improvements of the already existing transportation system in the city. When Duggan became Mayor he hired Dan Dirks from SMART as head over DDOT improving the bus services. There are a couple of elected officials whom had hinted at running for Mayor in 2025. Their voting records on funding the improvements to public transportation should be examined as well. Residents may discover the intrest of these officials toward mass transit as a whole. Detroiters in the past had voted by name recognition. Very few had done research on the candidates that ran for public offices. It may take a non retread candidate to get the ball rolling.