Governor Whitmer, please stop fixing the GD roads!

**Henry Whalley** · September-21-23, 10:49 AM

Just back home from a drive to doctor's office in Sterling Heights. It was almost impossible to get there due to road construction. For anyone who complains about Whitmer not fixing the roads, I have one question. Did you just fall off the back of a cabbage truck?

**stasu1213** · September-21-23, 12:16 PM

Let's see hummm. The freeways that were replaced a few years back still managed to have orange barrels lining them sliding traffic so that the newly replaced section could be replaced once more. Each year Jefferson from downtown north to Alter had the orange barrels line the strip due to repaying or some work being done. The roads here on the Westside such as Schoolcraft, Joy Road, Puritan, etc are still in badly need of repaving. Did you know that these slowdown decreases your gas mileage causing you to have to take sooner trips to the gas stations or for smaller engines the repair shop due to stresses brought on to them. Why not have alternative roads that motorist could travel while the main roads are being worked on.

**Gistok** · September-21-23, 03:55 PM

Gee... who would have thought that there would be NIMBY construction sites?

I have to agree... I get annoyed with MDOT as well... they always do the freeway closings in Detroit on the weekend to remove/replace overpasses. Can't they stick to business hours to do that, and not inconvenience those of us who have weekend leisure activities?

<Sarcasm alert off>

**expatriate** · October-05-23, 12:50 PM

I would like to see the East Jefferson bike lanes redesigned to be like the two way ones on Kercheval that put both directions on the same side of the street. The two one-ways on Jefferson are unnecessary for the use they get. The Kercheval design also allows the bus stops to be better integrated with both the street and bike lanes.

**Amznblue** · October-05-23, 06:34 PM

She never started. You do know the feds secured bonds and gave the state the money for the roads right? I agree The state isn’t communicating with the counties and cities. But Whitmer has zero to do with it.

Check out this article from The Detroit News:

Report estimates up to $3.9B funding gap for Michigan roads, floats tax increase

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...s/69976681007/

**Gistok** · October-05-23, 06:41 PM

^ Of course there's a funding gap... Michigan roads took decades to get this bad, and are not going to get better over night.

**stasu1213** · October-06-23, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

^ Of course there's a funding gap... Michigan roads took decades to get this bad, and are not going to get better over night.

The State should mandate that these selected contractors use better materials for asphalt and concrete than the substandard material that's being used and had been used for pavement. Why can't the funding from the feds be invested directly into the roads without Michigan having to increase local taxes on gas to match or assist with federal funding? Research need to be done on substance that could melt snow and not deteriorate roads as well as vehicles. Are the chemicals blended in salt before it is used on the pavement? If so, is the chemicals in the salt causing the swift deterioration of roads as well as vehicles?

**sirrealone** · October-06-23, 07:31 AM

We're in a period where they're damned either way. If they don't improve material quality, then they can fix more roads now but they won't last as long. If they use better materials, the roads they work on will last longer, but they won't get to as many of them.

Given that politicians are about making sure things look as good as possible now, I have a feeing that materials won't change in the immediate future. The better materials could be introduced at a later point if/when we get more caught up the current backlog.

It's like the saying goes, you can't turn a ship on a dime. The state neglected the roads for 20 years. To undo that will take at least a decade, and that's optimistic. The rub is that if we do catch up, we need to keep up. Perpetually playing catch-up is not the answer. We actually caught up in the 90's when funding levels were increased, and the roads were brought into pretty good shape. But the funding increase turned out to be a band aid, and wasn't actually a long term solution. By the time anybody got around to try to correct this, the recession was looming, and road funding got swept under the rug and ignored by administrations from both parties.

**stasu1213** · October-06-23, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

We're in a period where they're damned either way. If they don't improve material quality, then they can fix more roads now but they won't last as long. If they use better materials, the roads they work on will last longer, but they won't get to as many of them.

Given that politicians are about making sure things look as good as possible now, I have a feeing that materials won't change in the immediate future. The better materials could be introduced at a later point if/when we get more caught up the current backlog.

It's like the saying goes, you can't turn a ship on a dime. The state neglected the roads for 20 years. To undo that will take at least a decade, and that's optimistic. The rub is that if we do catch up, we need to keep up. Perpetually playing catch-up is not the answer. We actually caught up in the 90's when funding levels were increased, and the roads were brought into pretty good shape. But the funding increase turned out to be a band aid, and wasn't actually a long term solution. By the time anybody got around to try to correct this, the recession was looming, and road funding got swept under the rug and ignored by administrations from both parties.

I believe that the constant repaving of the roads keep money into contractors pockets. The constant developing of potholes causing damages to vehicles especially the more modern ones keep money coming to these repair shops especially these dealerships. It's milking the system as well as the pockets of Michiganders. These factories and companies that have their heavy trucks rolling through the streets should help in the funding of repaying these roads?

**sirrealone** · October-06-23, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I believe that the constant repaving of the roads keep money into contractors pockets.

Can you imagine what would happen in Michigan if contractors rolled up to a road that was in perfectly good shape and started putting a new layer of asphalt on it? No cracks? No potholes? People would lose their minds.

In actuality, that's the way it's supposed to be. Preventative fixes, not reactive fixes, are the way to keep roads lasting longer. If they pave over a pothole, that pothole is still there and, while delayed with the new pavement, will eventually re-show it self and continue to grow. If they pave over the road before that pothole first has a chance to develop, it will keep the road sealed tight. The initial breakdown is what determines how long a road will ultimately last.

So, blaming the contractors isn't necessarily fair. Yes, they sometimes do use bad materials, but more often than not, they're using perfectly good materials, but applying them to a road surface that has started to fail foundationally.

It goes back to the same thing as I said in my last post. We've gotten so far behind the curve that the best we can do right now is pave over roads that are already in a state of failure. Hopefully over time we can move the bar so that we're proactively repairing, not reactively repairing.

**Richard** · October-06-23, 10:39 AM

A lot of it is red tape,by the time a need to fix or replace a road is recognized and funding is dedicated it can be months for a simple pothole and years for a major road project.

I have a friend that is an estimator for a major road building company,to replace 5 miles of highway it is up to 25,000 pages of estimate and can take up to 10 years before it is funded and approved.

Then what happens in that time frame is the cost of everything has gone up,so the project is started based on the funding as outlined in the original estimate then slowed or stopped in the middle of the project,because of the increased costs and the need to get the remaining funds approved and allocated.

I can give an example based on what we just experienced after storm surge wiped out connecting bridges to populated beach islands.

For the fist time in my 40 years here the governor removed the red tape,those bridges were rebuilt or replaced in a matter of weeks whereas other bridge projects not included that are simular build are over 1-2 years into reconstruction.

The city where I am at potholes are not allowed to linger,because it is cheaper to repair them before they get out of hand and cheaper to repair them then paying out for vehicle repairs caused by the pothole.

When it comes to major road repairs or resurfacing the money to fix then is an issue but from what I have seen recently,it’s entirely possible to do it fast with the least amount of disruptions by simply stream lining the process.

**1953** · October-06-23, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Henry Whalley

Just back home from a drive to doctor's office in Sterling Heights. It was almost impossible to get there due to road construction. For anyone who complains about Whitmer not fixing the roads, I have one question. Did you just fall off the back of a cabbage truck?

I love this thread. Thank you. I can hardly get to my kids' school anymore, thanks to construction on every road I take to get there and back, in every direction, including all of the known alternatives. I often just feel physically trapped.

1953

**Henry Whalley** · October-06-23, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by 1953

...I often just feel physically trapped.

Ditto, it takes me hours to drive to the adult diaper store.

**stasu1213** · October-06-23, 06:56 PM

I was driving on John R today heading toward downtown. I noticed that John R had been repaired a few weeks again but some crew had torn up the newly repaired part near East Warren to do work underground. I also noticed they are doing a botched job repaving the area that they had worked on. This has been an ongoing issue in Detroit. A street or avenue could undergo major repaving. Afterwards a work crew comes along and tear up the street that was just repaired. Then the crew will repave that area with cheap asphalt that caves in within a few days. Now contractors have to come along and repair the whole street again getting paid twice. This is an ongoing racket that need to be investigated by authorities

**ABetterDetroit** · October-06-23, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

So, blaming the contractors isn't necessarily fair. Yes, they sometimes do use bad materials, but more often than not, they're using perfectly good materials, but applying them to a road surface that has started to fail foundationally.

Giving the road contractors a free pass is far from fair considering that a few of them are embroiled currently in a bid rigging investigation.

Road construction in our climate and conditions is not some sort of cutting edge civil engineering that has never been done. The basic principles and requirements to properly construct a reliable road surface are well known and have been for a long time. The industry here has been plagued by corruption, fubar politics, a moronic belief that the lowest price is always the best and an obvious lack of inspection and quality control. The currant condition of many of the newer roads in the metro that were completely rebuilt only a decade ago prove this simple fact.

Shorting the road base of quality and quantity of product, depth and preparation offer the contractor such tremendous profit on a job that proper uncorrupted inspection becomes absolutely necessary. Obviously the rumors of little to no inspection in this industry for decades have been painfully true in this state. Hopefully with the latest push to address the road problem something has changed with these issues.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...l/70668794007/

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...y/70373219007/

**ct_alum** · October-07-23, 11:31 AM

Want the roads to last longer? Tell your State Representative to lower the load limits for trucks, anything less than steel will fail with the constant pounding of heavy trucks. IIRC, Michigan has one of if not the highest load limits in the country. Problem is that between the insurance and trucking industries, it is hard to tell who owns more Michigan politicians.

**mwilbert** · October-07-23, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by ct_alum

Want the roads to last longer? Tell your State Representative to lower the load limits for trucks.

This is true. Road wear goes up as the *4th** power of weight/axle. Michigan allows trucks that are too heavy.

https://www.insidescience.org/news/h...s-do-our-roads

**Atticus** · October-07-23, 02:03 PM

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan walk into a grocery store. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on groceries as the man named Michigan. And yet despite both men walking into the same grocery store, the man from Ohio magically comes out with twice as many groceries.

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan each buy a new car. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on the new car as the man named Michigan. And yet despite both men buying a new car, the man from Ohio magically ends up with a better car. But maybe it’s just because he knows how to negotiate better.

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan each build roads. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on building roads as the man named Michigan. For some strange reason, Ohio ends up with better roads. But maybe it’s because of bad materials, or poor designs by Michigan, or weight loads.

One thing is for certain though… the main reason surely couldn’t just be something as simple as Ohio spending more on roads actually leads to them having better quality roads, could it? I mean just look at the posts in this thread that suggest otherwise .

**stasu1213** · October-07-23, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Atticus

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan walk into a grocery store. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on groceries as the man named Michigan. And yet despite both men walking into the same grocery store, the man from Ohio magically comes out with twice as many groceries.

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan each buy a new car. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on the new car as the man named Michigan. And yet despite both men buying a new car, the man from Ohio magically ends up with a better car. But maybe it’s just because he knows how to negotiate better.

A man named Ohio and a man named Michigan each build roads. The man named Ohio spends twice as much on building roads as the man named Michigan. For some strange reason, Ohio ends up with better roads. But maybe it’s because of bad materials, or poor designs by Michigan, or weight loads.

One thing is for certain though… the main reason surely couldn’t just be something as simple as Ohio spending more on roads actually leads to them having better quality roads, could it? I mean just look at the posts in this thread that suggest otherwise .

Actually. The man named Michigan spent more money on the roads than the man named Ohio. The man named Ohio had paid more money on roads that lasted 20 plus years. The man named Michigan used his to build roads using cheap materials and within 2 years having to spend more money to repair the same roads again.

**ABetterDetroit** · October-07-23, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by ct_alum

Want the roads to last longer? Tell your State Representative to lower the load limits for trucks, anything less than steel will fail with the constant pounding of heavy trucks. IIRC, Michigan has one of if not the highest load limits in the country. Problem is that between the insurance and trucking industries, it is hard to tell who owns more Michigan politicians.

The made up excuses never end in this state. ‘It’s the freezing weather!’ ‘Truck axel limits are way too high!’ ‘I can’t be done here’. Michigan is an heavily industrialized state it will have heavy truck traffic. Again, it’s not a manned mission to mars. It’s building a road correctly the first time. It’s far past time to quit making excuses for stupidity, corruption and incompetence here.

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/pol...laws/app_b.htm

**Henry Whalley** · October-08-23, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

It’s far past time to quit making excuses for stupidity, corruption and incompetence here.

Prolly cuz it's a gravy train for the racketeers who monopolize road construction and county governments.

**Richard** · October-08-23, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

The made up excuses never end in this state. ‘It’s the freezing weather!’ ‘Truck axel limits are way too high!’ ‘I can’t be done here’. Michigan is an heavily industrialized state it will have heavy truck traffic. Again, it’s not a manned mission to mars. It’s building a road correctly the first time. It’s far past time to quit making excuses for stupidity, corruption and incompetence here.

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/pol...laws/app_b.htm

Interesting how Michigan is the highest road limits are the highest in the country,the argument that more weights equates to more wear is a valid one.

But because all states base registration on GVW the trucks pay more in order to compensate for the additional wear.

So really without knowing what Michigan charges verses other states it’s hard to really say it has that much of a negative impact.

I would have never thought that outside of the automotive sector the level of heavy industrial production going on in the state would not even come into play,or was enough,but once on looks at how much industry is still located in the state the weight limits become more realistic.

Roads are like anything else doing it cheap the first time is going to be more expensive in the long run.

The Romans managed to build roads that are still there 2000 years later with no technology.

**Ray1936** · October-08-23, 06:25 PM

Was back in the metro Detroit area in August, and couldn't believe all the road construction going on. But that's the price you pay for the rain/freeze/snow/rain/freeze/thaw/freeze stuff. Makes be glad to be in southern Nevada were it rarely rains and almost never freezes. And n'eer do the two come together.

**Scottathew** · October-09-23, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

But that's the price you pay for the rain/freeze/snow/rain/freeze/thaw/freeze stuff.

Also the price of decades of neglecting infrastructure.

All the construction is annoying, but it's so we can have non-shitty roads.

FIX 'EM UP!

**Warrenite84** · October-09-23, 03:12 PM

A modest reduction in road limits would be good.

Many cash strapped cities also cheapen their road standards to stretch the dollars paid. Poorer communities = less $$$ for road maintenance = poorer roads = people and businesses perhaps moving out = less money for road repair...

I'm not a proponent for sky high taxes but streamlining the process between need, plan, funding, and implementation certainly would help.

Fiduciary responsibility by our elected representatives with measurable scoring and an online dashboard for the public would help also.

Why not have paving companies from Ohio or other out state companies be allowed to bid to force the local paving companies to be competitive.

My commute to work has been dealing with the Mound Rd. major reconstruction among others. [[Lots of stone chips). Sadly, It doesn't seem that long ago for me to remember when Mound was TWO lanes each way before the last rebuild in the 1990's.