Death of Public Transportation

[Richard]

^ there is alot of truth in there when he says

American cities were not built to accommodate the car ,they were bull dozed to accommodate the car.

[ABetterDetroit]

How to fund? Anyone? Here is some 2018 cost per mile data and some of the issues involved in getting bang for the buck.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...%20per%20mile.

[stasu1213]

Bottom line on transit, if you want to 1. sell it to the masses, and 2. have it succeed long term, it needs to be comparable or better than driving your personal car for those who can easily access it.

Whenever transit is on the ballot, the boosters shove a bunch of poor, handicapped, and elderly people in our faces and say "vote yes for their sake". That's a losing proposition in the US.

You have to come up with a proposal that will make a good portion of the people who COULD drive their personal car, say "ya know what, if they built that I WOULD use it myself!"

Once you do that you'll have a winner and not much else will matter besides executing on the vision sold. All other concerns go out the window when you show people it will benefit them personally.

I had made that argument 10 years ago. The proponents for mass transit [[mainly from Detroit) pushed the how it will help the elderly, handicap, and those on fixed income in suburbanites faces as a excuse to vote for mass transit. I wondered if these proponents were really working for the opposition or opponents of mass transit.

[Richard]

How to fund? Anyone? Here is some 2018 cost per mile data and some of the issues involved in getting bang for the buck.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...%20per%20mile.

Cities are funding implementing and expanding mass transit all across the country every day of the week,you are not reinventing the track or discovering some new type of advanced transportation.

Its not a question of how to fund,the question is why is it not happening?

People talk about it a lot but nobody really seems to be doing anything or even take the initiative to get it going,it’s never going to happen if people keep waiting for it to fall out of the sky or some billionaire to take them by the hand.

For every inch of track laid down there will be opposition,always has been but yet people still get it done,mostly by spending more energy getting it done then by discussing how it cannot be done.

DDOT received $6.9 million to buy 4 electric buses and put charging stations,2 were 60 foot long,does the city have any routes that fill a 60’ bus with riders?

That was it,that is who’s door you need to knocking on because DDOT is not going to allow any other form of transportation that will compete with what you have,they are already established and know the process.

Its your city,as much as they want you to believe the opposite,they work for you,you meaning the residents,if you do not like what is happening,do what every other boss does,fire them and keep on firing them until you find somebody that will do the job they were hired to do.

[stasu1213]

Cities are funding implementing and expanding mass transit all across the country every day of the week,you are not reinventing the track or discovering some new type of advanced transportation.

Its not a question of how to fund,the question is why is it not happening?

People talk about it a lot but nobody really seems to be doing anything or even take the initiative to get it going,it’s never going to happen if people keep waiting for it to fall out of the sky or some billionaire to take them by the hand.

For every inch of track laid down there will be opposition,always has been but yet people still get it done,mostly by spending more energy getting it done then by discussing how it cannot be done.

DDOT received $6.9 million to buy 4 electric buses and put charging stations,2 were 60 foot long,does the city have any routes that fill a 60’ bus with riders?

That was it,that is who’s door you need to knocking on because DDOT is not going to allow any other form of transportation that will compete with what you have,they are already established and know the process.

Its your city,as much as they want you to believe the opposite,they work for you,you meaning the residents,if you do not like what is happening,do what every other boss does,fire them and keep on firing them until you find somebody that will do the job they were hired to do.

Maybe that is why the QLine wait time had increased between rides. DDOT Woodward line doesn't want the competition especially for those who are riding short distances from downtown to Grand Blvd and for free on the QLine. The QLine especially runs slower whenever a major event is occurring downtown.

[canuck]

The future potential for transit usage in Detroit has to be predicated on what happens in other metros in the US. I am not sure the investment in large scale rail infrastructure can be justified by a fairly predictable lack of usage.

You only have to look at Los Angeles and its Metro system and the new connector that is barely used in a city with a very large population and automotive habits similar to Detroit's. Given the history of low transit usage, the investment needs to be looked at very closely before a sound decision is made.

[Richard]

The future potential for transit usage in Detroit has to be predicated on what happens in other metros in the US. I am not sure the investment in large scale rail infrastructure can be justified by a fairly predictable lack of usage.

You only have to look at Los Angeles and its Metro system and the new connector that is barely used in a city with a very large population and automotive habits similar to Detroit's. Given the history of low transit usage, the investment needs to be looked at very closely before a sound decision is made.

It may be easier now to implement,less residents to disrupt during the process.

Used to be rail / mass transit was self supporting,early days or created a lot of billionaires.

Now it is considered no different then the roads,a social investment by the taxpayers in order to serve the greater good,it’s not expected to make profits or operate without taxpayer support.

But then again Orlando built a majority private funded system,they are running a system that connects Miami to Jacksonville,Orlando to Tampa again majority privately funded.

Both the U.S. and Canada has toll roads - privately funded.
Spending 6 billion in a bridge - privately funded

What is the difference in building a 20 mile multi billion dollar toll road that you charge people $1 to use then spending even a billion dollar rail line from downtown Detroit to downtown Hamtramck and charging $1 to use it.

Years ago they built a private toll road that connects Orlando to Sanford,it’s probably 20 miles long,when it first opened there was more highway patrol cars looking for speeders then there was people using it and it took at least 10 years before it became as congested as every other road in the city.

I think the biggest hold back in Detroit is the amount of shortsighted residents people look at stuff in todays eyes and decide it is not possible.

You plant a seedling,come out of your house every day thinking why did I do that,it does not even give enough shade to cool the cat down,10 years go by and that tree now gives 2 houses shade.

The city of Detroit is kinda in a catch 22 situation,or the citizens are anyways because not only do you have to build to meet todays needs you have to add extra in because planting the seeds for the future of the city also falls on today,a double whammy of sorts.

It is no different then building all of this subsidized housing,where the city will not be able to enjoy the property tax benefits for 30 years,so the taxpayers have to kick in a little bit extra to cover the loss of that property which in essence is now removed from the immediate tax rolls.

Okay it pays off in 30 years for the citizens,5 years for the builder who can convert it into market rate while enjoying the tax credit for an additional 25 years.

But that is what you are doing,investing today in order to build the city for the future.

Even worse though is the persistent urge to spend millions on things that make you feel good,social services.

Its all fine and good if you can afford it but feel good does not pay the bills or provide the finer things in life,you know like having a supermarket a few blocks away,having transit options where you do not need to depend on a car.

People are constantly discussing rail options within the city like it is 1926 with lines on every street and if we cannot have that it sucks.

You are never going to get that because nobody seems to want to do what it takes and look at it realistically.

Its not that complicated,you do not have the money,you do not have private investors lined up to build you a rail system and as noted in every single discussion you do not have the density.

If you want to plant the seeds of a viable mass transit system in the Detroit region you have to work with what you have and not what you do not have.

You have to start with your main connections first then branch off from there as needed.

You have to connect your city’s with a mainline,like I mentioned as an example Downtown Detroit to downtown Hamtramck that brings your total potential base of usage to 528,000.

So you do not have a density problem,you do not have a funding problem through FTA,just a whole boxcar load of excuses on why it cannot be done.

No different then the fence sitters when it comes to buying real estate,they are not really interested in buying real estate,they are just using what is available in order to create excuse not buy it.

You want to establish a transit system in the region of Detroit,the first step is climbing off of the fence and doing it,verses coming up with all of the reasons of why it cannot be done,like I posted it’s being done every day in city across the world,even 3 rd world countries have managed to implement viable mass transit.

Yea okay I am prodding,but quit pissing around and get it done. It’s being made more complicated then it is.

Discussing it to death is creating more distractors because it involves unrealistic goals that will never be realized in the form it is being presented and makes people numb to it instead gaining support momentum.

You are never going to eliminate the distractors,they will always be there,your job is to climb over that barrier because it is just one of many,no different then in life,if you let barriers hold you back you will never get anything accomplished.

You can skip the rest,just an interesting bit of rail history.

Guy in Philadelphia has a little butcher shop,civil war breaks out and he makes buckets of money selling beef to the union army.

He takes that money and establishes a street car system in the city of Philadelphia,makes him a millionaire in those times,he then takes that money or a part of it and becomes a major investor in a ship transit company in England.

At the time ships moved people more then airplanes,mostly because they were not at that stage yet.

Anyways,his company called White Star Lines contracted to have a ship called the Titanic built along with two other sister ships called Olympic and Britannic,unfortunately his son and hier died that fateful night on the Titanic.

[stasu1213]

I think that once the geographic changes in Detroit the bus system will improve due to the demand for the use of public transportation. The Qline would probably extend to 8 mile rd. DDOT made a step in the right direction under Mayor Duggan when he appointed Dan Dirks from SMART as the director of DDOT. Under Dirk the wait time decreased and more busses were added to certain lines. DDOT had taken a setback when he was replaced by a director and board who were clueless on how to run an effective transportation system. Now strides are being made to make DDOT a much better system especially with the reinstalling of the loop busses and those services that runs from downtown to certain neighborhoods. The FAST bus need to run more often with services being installed on Jefferson and Vandyke routes. It's not only the mindset of the residents that need changing; It's the mindset of those in office that need to changing from the Governor down to Council when it come to public transportation in Detroit and Southeastern Michigan.

[canuck]

@Richard, stasu1213; et al/


I am not sure, at this late stage in the game, that a majority of Metro dwellers would be inclined to accept a vast transit scheme, nor be expected to.

Transit modes are transient, and nobody could have predicted the advent of Ubers, and cycles, scooters and EVs in the transit mix 40 years ago. I mean, a sizeable chunk of transit exists in car sharing all made possible by phone apps that give more individual mobility choices to those who don’t want or need to own a car outright. So, if that model supersedes light or heavy rail in 2040, what happens of the huge sums needed to build and maintain underused infrastructure?

Some lines in Los Angeleeze only attract 2000 riders daily. Ouch.

[stasu1213]

@Richard, stasu1213; et al/


I am not sure, at this late stage in the game, that a majority of Metro dwellers would be inclined to accept a vast transit scheme, nor be expected to.

Transit modes are transient, and nobody could have predicted the advent of Ubers, and cycles, scooters and EVs in the transit mix 40 years ago. I mean, a sizeable chunk of transit exists in car sharing all made possible by phone apps that give more individual mobility choices to those who don’t want or need to own a car outright. So, if that model supersedes light or heavy rail in 2040, what happens of the huge sums needed to build and maintain underused infrastructure?

Some lines in Los Angeleeze only attract 2000 riders daily. Ouch.

Cycles, , Scooters , and ebikes are good for short distance traveling in warmer weather especially for younger people. Users can be pricey when using it everyday so is rideshare. DDOT and SMART are on the right track when it comes to bus passes that could be used on both transit. At this stage Detroit and its surrounding suburbs just need a very dependable cross transit system such as Flex and Fast so that residents and citizens could travel inexpensively around when commuting to work, shopping, or to events such as a Tatloy Swift concert or a Lions playoff game

[canuck]

Cycles, , Scooters , and ebikes are good for short distance traveling in warmer weather especially for younger people. Users can be pricey when using it everyday so is rideshare. DDOT and SMART are on the right track when it comes to bus passes that could be used on both transit. At this stage Detroit and its surrounding suburbs just need a very dependable cross transit system such as Flex and Fast so that residents and citizens could travel inexpensively around when commuting to work, shopping, or to events such as a Tatloy Swift concert or a Lions playoff game

I certainly think the city and region would profit from better transit schemes. I won’t argue that point. I do think it has become a harder sell as time goes by, and that mobility is becoming a multiplicity of choices, bar what you say about the short distance and cold climate aspects, which are true. But big transit is a big bite to chew when the center of the region is depleted and the enthusiasm was never there to begin with. It seems that spending vast sums on a relatively low likelihood of usage is a very risky thing.


Heck, there is constant talk on these threads of a lack of parking in spite of the massive presence of surface lots and multi-story both in Detroit and the burbs. Maybe a mix of humungous park and ride lots are part of a potential for success, since Metro Detroiters hold on to their cars at a higher rate than most cities. It’s part of the mix in Canadian cities, too, even where ridership is generally higher.

[Richard]

@Richard, stasu1213; et al/


I am not sure, at this late stage in the game, that a majority of Metro dwellers would be inclined to accept a vast transit scheme, nor be expected to.

Transit modes are transient, and nobody could have predicted the advent of Ubers, and cycles, scooters and EVs in the transit mix 40 years ago. I mean, a sizeable chunk of transit exists in car sharing all made possible by phone apps that give more individual mobility choices to those who don’t want or need to own a car outright. So, if that model supersedes light or heavy rail in 2040, what happens of the huge sums needed to build and maintain underused infrastructure?

Some lines in Los Angeleeze only attract 2000 riders daily. Ouch.

there is a thing call future projective numbers based on growth.

You just spent or are spending $6 billion on a bridge that was not only sold on current demand but projected future demand in order to justify it.

You are correct evolving,technologies such as Uber may decrease demand no different then auto manufacturers consolidating will decrease demand over the bridge.

But it still does not stop from building the bridge.

Things like Uber and Lyft are like anything else,they appear and becomes the next best thing sense sliced cheese,but in the U.S. when ever something like that happens,something new,it launches gets excepted,then the government steps in and regulates it to death.

There are 80,000 ride share vehicles on the road in NYC,you guys suck at saving the planet,that’s 80,000 more cars in the road 24/7 destroying peoples childhoods.

The difference between Detroit and LA is LA is growth stunted,it’s built out allready so it is easy to place transit options according to demand and you know that demand will have little future fluctuations.

Detroit can not only dictate where demand will be due to placement the sky is the limit when it comes to predicting future demand.

If somebody had purchased the rights to the established rail system as it was in 1950 or earlier,during the bankruptcy when nobody was paying attention,they would be one of the most powerful people in Detroit right now because simply by announcing where they will place a line,will automatically increase property values along that line,they would be able to dictate that future growth.

You can say today,look at that section of town,abandoned neighborhoods,nobody lives there it’s not feasible to place a line there,raccoons do not use public transit.

But that abandoned neighborhood offers an opportunity that is hard to find in other cities,to start with a clean slate.

Why not? There are companies spending billions across the country building from scratch walkable communities and mass transit plays a front and center role.

You can actually justify, on the street car level,putting rails anywhere you want in the city based on future growth,you do not get much more future growth potential then block after block of abandoned neighborhoods with only a couple of houses left on them.

Not so much in established high density sections where you are locked out of future growth options and demand is cut and dry.

People are wringing their hands over what to do with all of these abandoned neighborhoods and the infrastructure.

The infrastructure is there already,how about using the opportunity to create walkable communities out of them,with fancy stuff like grocery stores and connecting lines to downtown and other communities.

Disney built one,you actually do not need a car,you can have one but you will not see them on the streets because they all are brought in from outside through the alleyways,everything you need theaters,restaurants,grocery store,post office etc.

You really do not need to leave.

Its called Celebration and they have a few others,they are communities with thousands of residents.

Even easier now,just call it a green community and funding will rain down like a afternoon shower.

Do you think Hantz bought all of that just to plant trees,they bought it because of its future growth potential.

What would be really nice is if all of these Detroit and Michigan public pension funds,Detroit and Michigan retirement funds ,Detroit and Michigan mall builders,Detroit and Michigan developers would actually stop investing in Florida and start investing in their own communities the same communities they are getting the money from in the first place.

I do not know though they seem to be pretty adept at screwing up Florida with the exact same mindset that screwed up Detroit and Michigan,so maybe it is better they are out of your hair,for you anyways.

Our downtown parking lots are quickly disappearing,thanks to things like the city of Detroit teachers pension fund,maybe next time you go by there flip them a wave and remind them that it is not unfeasible for the community that supports them expect a little support in return.

Really,how can they expect you to believe in your city,if they do not?

As long as I am ranting,where the hell are all of your local politicians that stood in front of the cameras every day yelling about how they are looking out for you ?

A lot of these discussions about transit,grocery stores,better retail options should not even be an issue,it’s the basics of a functioning city,did they all up and bail on you ?

Have not heard a peep out of them in 4 years and 4 years later you are still discussing the exact same things that are lacking and there is no reason in the world for it.

You guys need to remind those in hiding that 2024 is coming up quick and unless they start addressing these basic needs now,they need to start looking for another job.

That is their only job and reason for existence,to help you get these things accomplished and be your voice,if you do not speak up people will continue to vote with their feet and then all of this becomes hollow discussions because they will never lead anywhere.

But that’s how you know all of this save the planet,green energy stuff is a farce and a trillion dollar scam,because nothing moves people and goods while emitting less emissions then rail and mass transit but yet it receives the least amount of funding or recognition.

They do not really want you to help do your part with mass transit,they want you to except the fact that you are a accomplice in killing the planet faster by buying an EV ,that way in the future they can blame it on you and ask for more trillions because they are the nice guys that will help you save yourself from you.

[stasu1213]

there is a thing call future projective numbers based on growth.

You just spent or are spending $6 billion on a bridge that was not only sold on current demand but projected future demand in order to justify it.

You are correct evolving,technologies such as Uber may decrease demand no different then auto manufacturers consolidating will decrease demand over the bridge.

But it still does not stop from building the bridge.

Things like Uber and Lyft are like anything else,they appear and becomes the next best thing sense sliced cheese,but in the U.S. when ever something like that happens,something new,it launches gets excepted,then the government steps in and regulates it to death.

There are 80,000 ride share vehicles on the road in NYC,you guys suck at saving the planet,that’s 80,000 more cars in the road 24/7 destroying peoples childhoods.

The difference between Detroit and LA is LA is growth stunted,it’s built out allready so it is easy to place transit options according to demand and you know that demand will have little future fluctuations.

Detroit can not only dictate where demand will be due to placement the sky is the limit when it comes to predicting future demand.

If somebody had purchased the rights to the established rail system as it was in 1950 or earlier,during the bankruptcy when nobody was paying attention,they would be one of the most powerful people in Detroit right now because simply by announcing where they will place a line,will automatically increase property values along that line,they would be able to dictate that future growth.

You can say today,look at that section of town,abandoned neighborhoods,nobody lives there it’s not feasible to place a line there,raccoons do not use public transit.

But that abandoned neighborhood offers an opportunity that is hard to find in other cities,to start with a clean slate.

Why not? There are companies spending billions across the country building from scratch walkable communities and mass transit plays a front and center role.

You can actually justify, on the street car level,putting rails anywhere you want in the city based on future growth,you do not get much more future growth potential then block after block of abandoned neighborhoods with only a couple of houses left on them.

Not so much in established high density sections where you are locked out of future growth options and demand is cut and dry.

People are wringing their hands over what to do with all of these abandoned neighborhoods and the infrastructure.

The infrastructure is there already,how about using the opportunity to create walkable communities out of them,with fancy stuff like grocery stores and connecting lines to downtown and other communities.

Disney built one,you actually do not need a car,you can have one but you will not see them on the streets because they all are brought in from outside through the alleyways,everything you need theaters,restaurants,grocery store,post office etc.

You really do not need to leave.

Its called Celebration and they have a few others,they are communities with thousands of residents.

Even easier now,just call it a green community and funding will rain down like a afternoon shower.

Do you think Hantz bought all of that just to plant trees,they bought it because of its future growth potential.

What would be really nice is if all of these Detroit and Michigan public pension funds,Detroit and Michigan retirement funds ,Detroit and Michigan mall builders,Detroit and Michigan developers would actually stop investing in Florida and start investing in their own communities the same communities they are getting the money from in the first place.

I do not know though they seem to be pretty adept at screwing up Florida with the exact same mindset that screwed up Detroit and Michigan,so maybe it is better they are out of your hair,for you anyways.

Our downtown parking lots are quickly disappearing,thanks to things like the city of Detroit teachers pension fund,maybe next time you go by there flip them a wave and remind them that it is not unfeasible for the community that supports them expect a little support in return.

Really,how can they expect you to believe in your city,if they do not?

As long as I am ranting,where the hell are all of your local politicians that stood in front of the cameras every day yelling about how they are looking out for you ?

A lot of these discussions about transit,grocery stores,better retail options should not even be an issue,it’s the basics of a functioning city,did they all up and bail on you ?

Have not heard a peep out of them in 4 years and 4 years later you are still discussing the exact same things that are lacking and there is no reason in the world for it.

You guys need to remind those in hiding that 2024 is coming up quick and unless they start addressing these basic needs now,they need to start looking for another job.

That is their only job and reason for existence,to help you get these things accomplished and be your voice,if you do not speak up people will continue to vote with their feet and then all of this becomes hollow discussions because they will never lead anywhere.

But that’s how you know all of this save the planet,green energy stuff is a farce and a trillion dollar scam,because nothing moves people and goods while emitting less emissions then rail and mass transit but yet it receives the least amount of funding or recognition.

They do not really want you to help do your part with mass transit,they want you to except the fact that you are a accomplice in killing the planet faster by buying an EV ,that way in the future they can blame it on you and ask for more trillions because they are the nice guys that will help you save yourself from you.

Gilbert, Illitch, Karmanos, and I think Penske had started their own private rail line during or right after the bankruptcy. It was the QLine. Unfortunately that was during a different administration and council when development had begun. Plans were changed, the State had pulled it's support which would had allowed the line to run to 8 mile rd. The QLine original design was changed to make it a failure. No dedicated lights or lanes so that it could run uninterrupted by traffic or cars deliberately parking on tge tracks next to the curb.

[oladub]

I live in Madison WI which was not judged to have a dense enough population to merit a light rail line. Instead, the decision was made to create a Bus Rapid Transit System spanning the city. The cost was $160M. The line would follow two business routes, stop at the 40,000 student University, downtown, and the State Capitol and terminate on either end in a big shopping center. Joe Biden chipped in $80M including $41M for new EV buses. That's about $269 for every Madison resident.

To increase population density, zoning laws were changed to allow multiple family dwellings within 1/4 mile of the new bus line. Islands are being built in the middle of streets, sort of like for the street cars that use to be in Detroit. One problem is the the BRT will only stop once every half mile or so, so the average commuter will actually have a longer walk than to get to busses that stop every two blocks presently. The idea, is that high rise dwellings will pop up eventually around these bus stop nodes. In one Belgian city that offered free transport along its main bus line that is exactly what happened. Since the cost of bus fares only pays for a small portion of bus rides, the free rides were offset by higher property taxes along the bus route and saved that city from building another expressway ring around that city.

No one in City government even claims that this new BRT line will pay for its cost with present fares and tax levels. The Biden handout is not even considered in that calculation. If and when ridership does not provide enough revenue, Madison's mayor will probably be employed by the Federal DOT for trying.

I mention all this as a template of how to pay for a less than bold new transport system in Detroit. This is with Madison having so many advantages over Detroit already. Madison is more affluent, is growing rapidly, and its bus route does not go through any high crime neighborhoods that would deter ridership. Yet, Madison would not be able to pay for its new transit scheme without massive federal spending. The equivalent federal gift to Detroit, based on population, would be $170M.

[jcole]

One of the mass transit issues in the Metro area is that most of the businesses, ie factories, offices, stores, are located in the suburbs not in the city so transit needs to be interSUBurban as well as interurban here. People travel from Farmington Hills to Hazel Park, Royal Oak to Rochester Hills, St Clair Shores to Southfield much more than from Troy to Detroit, so trying to set up trains, undergrounds, or anything other than busses to reach from all of these suburbs to the other suburbs would be nearly impossible at least in a reasonable amount of time. Someone mentioned the Q line reaching 8 Mile. Okay if you live or work in Hazel Park, Ferndale, Royal Oak or a city that has bus service from 8 and Woodward to the burbs AND you want to ride a bus. Most people don't want to wait in the cold at the old State Fair grounds to ride a bus to Novi. Or take a bus with three different transfers.

[Richard]

^ a lot of the ROW from the old system is still out there,it would be quicker,easier and cheaper and meet density requirements by connecting all of those cities first.

Start out with mainline with park n ride

People live in Orlando and work at Cape Canaveral,it’s 50 miles and hours during rush hour.

First it was park n ride to shuttle now it is park n ride to train or even pick up the rail in downtown and not even need a car and be there in under an hour.

Plenty of tested and tried workable solutions,it’s not reinventing the wheel,but there are a lot of politics involved and that seems to be The Achilles heel up there.

It may be easier to just start a bribe a politician go fund me and get it done.