Death of Public Transportation

[pumphandle]

but we have to lead with reasons for people to be here, not just hope for the still-hypothetical population rebound that might one day make the city dense enough.

Exactly.

[stasu1213]

but we have to lead with reasons for people to be here, not just hope for the still-hypothetical population rebound that might one day make the city dense enough. what sounds like a more successful long term plan for growing the city?

1. proactively building infrastructure – both transit and of course education – as part of appeal campaign that makes the case that it's worth living here

2. hoping that we somehow claw our way back to 1M people with our current trajectory of leaving it to the private sector do the heavy lifting of creating quid-pro-quo-laden measures like the Qline as an amenity for its own planned [affluent] developments like LCA and City Modern, and hope that the majority class of Detroiters who don't live in Corktown or Brush Park will eventually come up with some reason to ride said amenity in numbers so great that we can get the ridership data that might eventually convince you to build more for everyone else?

i just think its backwards to lead with "not enough people to justify this", then throw it to Uber to figure it out for us. idk what the heck anyone thinks they're gonna do besides sell us expensive taxi rides from an increasingly automated fleet.

The Qline is a start as well as developing the 3 mile corridor that it services. I believe in a mixed class of people living in neighborhoods throughout the city. The Techies, Labor, Artists, and the white collars could live together in neighborhoods throughout the city along with having stricter ordinances such as noise ordinances, high fences for dwellings that have large dogs, etc. Let the rich have downtown detroit as long as the rest of Detroiters could shop, attend events, and play downtown. That would make people to want to live in Detroit I don’t think that Detroit need a subway. The city just need a good transit system that is safe, clean, and reliable so that those whom have their own private cars may want to use public transit as an alternative especially when going downtown for work, shopping, or events

[ABetterDetroit]

If not, then it might not be a good idea to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Like putting a Transit Millage up for a vote over and over again just to see it defeated repeatedly? Decade after decade? The property tax system is broken in Detroit, even the Democratic Mayor is is stating this simple fact. The rates are and have been detrimental to development and population growth.

A dedicated funding source is crucial to any transit improvement. Without it it doesn’t matter what is desired, it is all a pipe dream. Transit is expensive starting from scratch. Uncle sugar will expect a dedicated reliable local funding source before he lays out serious cash for brand new starting from nothing rail.

Ask “Do we need rail?” on this board and for a long time now and all you hear are hundreds of reasons why we do and where the tracks should go. Ask “How do we pay for rail?” then the silence is deafening until someone gets up and starts beating the rotting corpse of a property tax millage increase for the umpteenth time like it hasn’t already failed many times here before.

[Rocket]

The property tax system is broken in Detroit, even the Democratic Mayor is is stating this..............

Ask “How do we pay for rail?” then the silence is deafening until someone gets up and starts beating the rotting corpse of a property tax millage increase....

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

[Henry Whalley]

Brecia, Italy has a metro.

Brecia, Italy isn't Detroit. The publics using public transportation aren't the same publics.

[Richard]

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

The city of Detroit reported having 10,525 full-time employees in 2012, which was two years before it filed for bankruptcy. The city emerged from bankruptcy in 2015 with 6,187 FTEs, a 41% reduction in the full-time workforce.
Since then Detroit has been steadily growing its payroll, with 8,935 FTEs on the books in 2021, according to the city’s 2021 audited budget.

The payroll expansion has occurred even as Detroit's population continues to fall. There were 713,777 Detroit residents in 2010, a figure that dropped to 639,111 in 2020, according to the U.S. Census.

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-in-five-years

Requested by the city council in the 2023 budget proposal was a 25% pay increase and a 65% pay increase for the city clerk which would have brought them over a $100k per year instead of the usual 3.5%.

Bus drivers are paid $16 per hour and have a horrible attendance rate,wonder why.

The city lost $29 million out of the tax collection from WFH last year,but yet city residents will throw their support behind WFH,which is okay as long as it comes with the understanding that you will be the one making up for that $29 million shortfall,because that money was already spent.

As the city grew smaller the government employees required to manage grew larger.

Money was spent instituting programs that there will be no funding in order to sub-stain them long term.

Over 1 billion was spent on market rate units that will never show a profit and will require propping up in the future.

The city draws more revenue from sin taxes then legitimate workers.

Read the 2022 and 2023 budget reports and where the spending is.

The first round of demolitions was done by a $153 million bond - okay pay it off over time at a lower interest rate.

Now receive millions in free money and it was more important and a priority to demolish places like Packard because It provides good optics.

Instead of leveraging that money with Federal transportation grants which would have or could have covered the heavy costs of a more solid transportation system.

6 million to make things look pretty for a game in 2024,y’all been down that road before.

I agree the funds are there and are available,but some seem more concerned about optics then eating tomorrow.

It does not make sense,some actions are well thought out and beneficial to the taxpayer today and in the future while others are reminiscent of people that win the lottery and think that pile of money is never going to run out,until it does.

It does not matter who rides public transportation,it should be the basic core of transportation in a urban environment because there are always going to be that class of people that do the crap jobs.

Think about that,a bus driver in Detroit making $16 per hour would have a rough time catching a bus to work.

FTA was handing out mass transit grants like candy last year all across the country,the last time Detroit applied for and received grants was in 2019 when they split $12.8 million with flint and spent $8.9 million on new fare boxes.

No new requests or submittals in 4 years sense,there is no excuse for that.

Sometimes Detroit is like a cow and everybody and their mothers brother keeps milking it and the residents end up with the empty bucket.

If people are really serious about public transportation and implementing it they only way you are going to make headway is by becoming the squeaky wheel because otherwise you will not get the grease.

You are trying to improve public transportation in the region while others are using your energy to make money for them,they do not actually care if the buses run on time or not.

[pumphandle]

Like putting a Transit Millage up for a vote over and over again just to see it defeated repeatedly?

I might be wrong, as I haven't lived in Michigan for a while now, but from what I remember, the last couple millage proposals were centered around BRT, not rail, right?

Another genuine question: Has metro Grand Rapids ever in recent decades put a regional rail plan to a vote? I don't follow GR news as much as Detroit news, so I don't know.

[stasu1213]

The city of Detroit reported having 10,525 full-time employees in 2012, which was two years before it filed for bankruptcy. The city emerged from bankruptcy in 2015 with 6,187 FTEs, a 41% reduction in the full-time workforce.
Since then Detroit has been steadily growing its payroll, with 8,935 FTEs on the books in 2021, according to the city’s 2021 audited budget.

The payroll expansion has occurred even as Detroit's population continues to fall. There were 713,777 Detroit residents in 2010, a figure that dropped to 639,111 in 2020, according to the U.S. Census.

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-in-five-years

Requested by the city council in the 2023 budget proposal was a 25% pay increase and a 65% pay increase for the city clerk which would have brought them over a $100k per year instead of the usual 3.5%.

Bus drivers are paid $16 per hour and have a horrible attendance rate,wonder why.

The city lost $29 million out of the tax collection from WFH last year,but yet city residents will throw their support behind WFH,which is okay as long as it comes with the understanding that you will be the one making up for that $29 million shortfall,because that money was already spent.

As the city grew smaller the government employees required to manage grew larger.

Money was spent instituting programs that there will be no funding in order to sub-stain them long term.

Over 1 billion was spent on market rate units that will never show a profit and will require propping up in the future.

The city draws more revenue from sin taxes then legitimate workers.

Read the 2022 and 2023 budget reports and where the spending is.

The first round of demolitions was done by a $153 million bond - okay pay it off over time at a lower interest rate.

Now receive millions in free money and it was more important and a priority to demolish places like Packard because It provides good optics.

Instead of leveraging that money with Federal transportation grants which would have or could have covered the heavy costs of a more solid transportation system.

6 million to make things look pretty for a game in 2024,y’all been down that road before.

I agree the funds are there and are available,but some seem more concerned about optics then eating tomorrow.

It does not make sense,some actions are well thought out and beneficial to the taxpayer today and in the future while others are reminiscent of people that win the lottery and think that pile of money is never going to run out,until it does.

It does not matter who rides public transportation,it should be the basic core of transportation in a urban environment because there are always going to be that class of people that do the crap jobs.

Think about that,a bus driver in Detroit making $16 per hour would have a rough time catching a bus to work.

FTA was handing out mass transit grants like candy last year all across the country,the last time Detroit applied for and received grants was in 2019 when they split $12.8 million with flint and spent $8.9 million on new fare boxes.

No new requests or submittals in 4 years sense,there is no excuse for that.

Sometimes Detroit is like a cow and everybody and their mothers brother keeps milking it and the residents end up with the empty bucket.

If people are really serious about public transportation and implementing it they only way you are going to make headway is by becoming the squeaky wheel because otherwise you will not get the grease.

You are trying to improve public transportation in the region while others are using your energy to make money for them,they do not actually care if the buses run on time or not.

A 25% pay increase for City Council! For doing what? Whi OKs the pay increases for Council members and the Clerk?. Their salaries should remain at not more than $85,000 a year. That's being generous. Public safety employees are still the lowest paid of most big cities. Bus drivers are the Ines that deserve close to a 25% pay as well as teachers being that they deal with a dangerous public and having to teach many children from broken homes. Many teachers had used their own money to buy groceries, soap, and sometimes undergarments for their students whom are too poor to have those items at home.

[Jason]

Brecia, Italy isn't Detroit. The publics using public transportation aren't the same publics.

Except that the public here rides public transportation all the time when they're away at college, on vacation, and on business trips.

The people are the same, but the quality of the public transit available is different. Which I think shows even through those times when people here do ride transit. If you went to college at Michigan, then you rode transit every day, while if you went to Michigan State you didn't. If you go to Disney you do, if you go to Cedar Point you don't. If you travel to Europe you do, if you go to Traverse City you don't.

[Henry Whalley]

Except that the public here rides public transportation all the time when they're away at college, on vacation, and on business trips.

Except that the gangsters, killers, crazies, etc., aren't "away at college, on vacation, and on business trips." Their vacation homes are penitentiaries, their business trips are to dope houses, their colleges are graveyards.

[drjeff]

Ahh yes. Conflicting directions, simultaneously proposed. Good stuff.


Cities with a city income tax are harder to bring back.

Getting businesses, business professionals, and laborers to want to work here just becomes 1% harder [plus the accounting fees].

And that's on top of the single worst schools in the country with nearly the highest cost.

It's ridiculous to even suggest more taxes at this point. The city needs to find a way to use the money they have now 2-3 times as efficiently.


For reference,

Buffalo N.Y. spends $568 million on a pop of 884,000. Or $642 per person.

Miami spends $9.3 billion on 6.265 million people, or $1,484 per person.

Virginia Beach spends $2.5 billion on 1.488 million people. Or $1,680 per person.

Whereas Detroit's budget equals $3,952 per person.

That's 2.35 times as much as VA Beach spends, 2.66 times as much as Miami and 6 times as much as Buffalo N.Y.

Your population numbers are way, way off.
The population of Buffalo is 276,000
The population of Virginia Beach is 450,000, not anything close to 1.5 million
The population of Miami, FL is 440,000

You are apparently counting the huge metro areas and not the actual cities.

[Richard]

^ it would be tough for the city of Detroit to pull it off on their own,it would take a regional effort,or like mentioned take the ones or cities in the region that are ready to get on board and roll with that.

FTA funding looks at how many would be impacted on a given route so you would have a better chance with a downtown to downtown route.

EI: Downtown Detroit to downtown Hamtramck where connected overpowers density requirements.

Because it could be argued that you are taking the population of Hamtramck and the population of Detroit as a city,the small runs like the people mover and Q line are considered based on density in that given section.

It’s kinda been implemented backwards,take the spokes of the city and that is your mainline.

If you could take a line from say,Downtown Hamtramck to Downtown Detroit that connects to the People mover you have a connected system because you have eliminated that last mile which is the biggest hurdle in any system

That’s probably the most doable thing right now and also makes lemonade out of lemons with the people mover.

[Jason]

Your population numbers are way, way off.
The population of Buffalo is 276,000
The population of Virginia Beach is 450,000, not anything close to 1.5 million
The population of Miami, FL is 440,000

You are apparently counting the huge metro areas and not the actual cities.

Those numbers also don't account for the way different areas have different levels of government handling different responsibilities. Buffalo has a regional transit agency which covers both public transit and the airports. Detroit also does water/sewage, while Buffalo's is in a separate agency. Detroit also does public housing, and some public health stuff, which it also looks like Buffalo does separately. Looking through Detroit's budget, it looks like almost half the spending is from things that would be done at the county or state level, or in separate agencies, in other cities.

Even the income tax issue he brought up isn't really the whole story. Yes it matters, because you have two places right next to each other where in one you pay less income tax [[although in reality people tend to start with where they want to be, and then go to their most favored place they can afford, not the other way around). But if the discussion is about the tax burden, then it's misleading, because while city residents pay 2.4%, the state income tax is only 4.25%, and 6.65% is still completely in line with other states. Going back to my point in the previous paragraph, if Michigan simply had a 6.65% income tax and sent back 2.4% back to the municipalities in the form of revenue sharing, people would say Detroit had "lower taxes" even though in reality it didn't.

[softailrider]

Except that the gangsters, killers, crazies, etc., aren't "away at college, on vacation, and on business trips." Their vacation homes are penitentiaries, their business trips are to dope houses, their colleges are graveyards.

Very well put.

[Jason]

The people you take transit with are the people who live and work in the same areas as you do. If you have such low regard for your neighbors you should move.

[Richard]

You cannot get caught up in the diversion it keeps from keeping an eye on the ball.

The concept of it is okay to tax people and spend billions on roads and not spend anything to reduce the loads on those roads which in turn cuts maintenance costs is short sited,to the point where the majority would rather take on or create billions in multi generational debt.

Thats how you fix the roads,put more of a load on them,then complain about bad roads. Some would view that as counter productive.

As it stands, Michigan's deteriorating road and bridge infrastructure costs drivers $19.3 billion a year in the form of trafficcrashes, congestion, and vehicle costs - about $4,845 per household.
But if its current road and bridge funding were to remain the same over the next 10 years, that figure would rise to $25 billion a year in costs.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/stu...-costs-in-2021


Currently metro Detroit spends $400 million a year fixing roads that are deteriorating faster then they can fix them.

That’s why you will never catch up or “fix the roads” unless you look at reducing the loads on them or double the amount you are spending on them faster by doubling the tax rate.

Now you are going to have a bunch of EVs puttering about that weigh double of the average car out there,so you are increasing loads on surfaces that you cannot afford to fix now.

You can kick the can down the track all you want but like it or not that can is getting ready to turn into a barrel,people like it when you have no other options because they can charge you whatever they want and you have no choice but to pay it.

Thats why you can shout at the moon all night long - Fix the damn roads, because if they do not what else are you going to do? Walk?

You are already over a barrel,all they have to do is say - Give us more billions to fix the roads in order to get you to say you cannot afford that,so they are telling you to suck it up Nancy and enjoy your crappy roads because that’s all you got.

Even with the billions spent the roads are still wearing out before that is paid off,so it is like spending 1 billion while always remaining 500m in debt before you have to borrow or come up with the next billion.

If it was a viable solution we would not have trillions in crumbling infrastructure across this country.

You are not running mass transit to move the undesirables about in a urban area,you are implementing it in order to reduce the load and financial obligations on the current road system in order to make it more manageable.

What exactly do you think happens in 10-20 years from now when us boomers are gone,you can look at the city of Detroit and see exactly what happens when you have less putting into a system that has the same demands.

In 2020, the 65-74 age group:

• Was the largest of the older age groups with 33.1 million people, representing over half of the 65-and-over population.
• Represented 1 in 10 Americans in 2020.
• Experienced the largest growth of any older age group the previous decade. Its numbers grew by 11.4 million or 52.5%, increasing from 21.7 mil[lion in 2010 to 33.1 million in 2020.

You guys are more worried about climate change then the elephant in the room when 55 million boomers are no longer supporting a system and that is happening at an accelerated pace.

You ain’t never going to “Fix the damn roads” you will be driving on dangerous roads like they did in the 1800s because not only is the infrastructure in decline the amount of people paying into fixing them is also in decline.

Maybe it is time to get serious about how to lighten the load or wear and tear on them instead of doubling down on believing the false promise that somebody will fix them for you,nobody can print enough money for that,that thought pattern has proven not to work in the last 50 years and now all of the sudden it is going to ?

Weather or not if you have public transportation you are paying for it maybe not directly but you still are paying for it,is it not better just to implement it so at least you can enjoy the cost savings of less wear and tear and congestion on the existing broken roads?

You cannot use the argument of it is cheaper to fix the roads because you are not fixing them or even breaking even with the maintenance on them,spending billions while going backwards.

The UK has a wheel barrow full of road tax requirements and on top of that they pay $6.73 per gallon for gas because of even more road taxes.

Buy a new car and it is an additional $2000 for that first year just for the road tax.

Due to road taxes and fuel costs the cost of ownership per year is triple of what we pay here,and they still cannot generate enough to fix the roads.

[jcole]

Dealerships are not overstocked. We were recently looking to either trade in our lease or buy it out and they were desperate to get it from us. We found out that our buyout was 11,000 and the going price for the car is 22, 000 so of course we bought out. Ford was not happy. And when we looked at new vehicles all they have is SUVs, huge trucks and one "car" at each American dealer. And very little in stock

[Zacha341]

^ Depends on the dealership and state.

Some still have last year models setting on their lots especially Ford and Stellantis over-priced Trucks.

What they're selling in general is sky-high but that will change soon.

[CassTechGrad]

[Henry Whalley]

The people you take transit with are the people who live and work in the same areas as you do.

With regard to public transportation in Detroit, most people avoid it like the plague.

[pumphandle]

The people you take transit with are the people who live and work in the same areas as you do. If you have such low regard for your neighbors you should move.

Yes, exactly. I've taken transit in some pretty "bad" areas of "bad" cities, and believe it or not, I've never seen a mob of hoodlums duct tape an elderly woman to her seat before robbing her of her jewels, furs and soul. I would estimate that about 99.9% of the riders were completely boring.

About the worst thing I encountered during four years of said transit ridership was a pair of people playing music on their phones and a single incident in which a guy yelled "death rides a pale horse" at me while walking to the other end of the train. That's pretty tame.

[pumphandle]

I found this piece interesting.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...public-transit

[Zacha341]

Yep. Been there-done that. Prefer not now. Sadly when you ride public you can be exposed to alot. Not very civil increasingly. I find some people acting out for an 'audience' in public such as the bus - especially certain hours.

You will need to adapt the 'new york' seeming nonchalant, yet very-aware-gaze. Not looking directly at the antics [lest you offend the person - see my Al Pacino/ Devils Advocate youtube posted earlier]. Hooo-Hah. Stay aware yet a pair of head phones/ earbuds is helpful. As a distraction as needed.

Look at what's going on when flying these days...... !

With regard to public transportation in Detroit, most people avoid it like the plague.

[Jimaz]

... and a single incident in which a guy yelled "death rides a pale horse" at me while walking to the other end of the train....

Now there's a memory that would be hard to forget.

Death on the Pale Horse

• Death on the Pale Horse

[pumphandle]

Now there's a memory that would be hard to forget.

Yes, it definitely stuck in my head.

But again, it's worth emphasizing that this was the only real incident in four years of transit ridership in a city of half a million people that demographically resembles Detroit.

I've had a lot of good transit experiences as well. In Chicago, my partner and I were stuck one time for 24 hours because of a cancelled flight, and we took the bus to a Jamaican chicken place. The bus that took me there can only be described as full of love. Everybody who got on knew the bus driver, and half of the people seemed to know each other. It was a community on wheels.

And back when I took a bus regularly in Michigan's capital city, I really looked forward most days to chatting with the older state worker who would talk my ear off about whatever classical music she was listening to. I would have missed out on a lot of good composers if it hadn't been for that bus!

That said, buses are no substitute for rail transit. They can and should augment a good rail transit system, but if Michigan really wants to be economically competitive, it truly needs to get some regional rail transit going around its two biggest cities [[and probably Lansing too). Toronto, Chicago and other regional hubs are not sitting still when it comes to this type of infrastructure, as mentioned in previous posts. Those are the types of places Michigan is up against when businesses decide where to locate new facilities.