Campus shooting at Michigan State University

[Henry Whalley]

So now all you have to do is show...

tldr

[Jimaz]

tldr

I'm yearning to see an acronym for "Too long; didn't write." That would greatly improve the conversation.

[canuck]

I'm yearning to see an acronym for "Too long; didn't write." That would greatly improve the conversation.

Laffta. Yes. Perhaps "tolder" would fit the bill.

[Henry Whalley]

I'm yearning to see an acronym for "Too long; didn't write." That would greatly improve the conversation.

IDK Shakespeare said it best:

My liege, and madam, to expostulate
What majesty should be, what duty is,
What day is day, night night, and time is time,
Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time;
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief. Your noble son is mad …

[canuck]

What, no mention of the nearly 700 killed in Chicago last year? Why? Because most were black? They have VERY strict gun laws there.


And no mention of the 4 students killed in Idaho, with a knife?


It's almost like you have a secret agenda you're not telling us about.

The Idaho killings, sure, you are onto an inanimate object path again. I'm not a big fan of unsollicited assisted suicide, so if I have to choose between an assailant's weapon of my choice, it won't be a knife. The killer entered a house in the middle of the night in that one. If you're standing at a cash counter in a supermarket and some wunderkind marksman starts pumping at 20 yards or so, the inanimate object in question becomes somewhat more animated, and lethal than a dumb knife.


As far as the AA community goes, the effort to combat violence, and especially the self-destructive tendencies within, needs reinforcement, no contest there. The anti-police tendencies by many on the Left are also ludicrous. I think that the cost of running the legal system has come to a head, and that has started dictating the revolving door of felons back on the street. The incarceration rates are still astronomical, compared to other countries, and these things need to be addressed, as much as tighter control pf gun ownership.

[Henry Whalley]

[QUOTE=Zacha341;631956]We have just had the murder of three young people here in Michigan -- others injured...[QUOTE]

Agreed, and to think it can't or won't happen to any one of us in any public space, e.g., in a doctor's waiting room, pub, grocery store, etc., simply shows a lack of imagination and a loose grip on reality.

[Rocket]

Because THIS thread is about the students killed at MSU, or at least it's supposed to be. Go start a thread about Chicago and it's gun issues preferably on a Chicago chat group.

I realize this is close topic for you, being as you work for a similar state run university not too far away.

But my point was, we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of EVERY foolhardy idea of the perverse left.

Just occasionally, we should be able to look at both history, and other cities [Baltimore, Portland, LA, Memphis, San Fran, Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, New York] and see what NOT to do.

[jcole]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I work for a university nearby; I'm actually a network admin at a library, but never theless, my point is that this is a thread about the murder of 3 and the injury of 5 young people at a state university, not an excuse for yet another argument on whether we need gun control or not. Especially when we are on a group that is for local discussion. And before you say E Lansing isn't local, the 3 kids who were brutally killed all come from the greater Detroit area. The discussion on here should be about how we can protect more young Michigan/Detroit students from being murder victims while they are being educated

I realize this is close topic for you, being as you work for a similar state run university not too far away.

But my point was, we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of EVERY foolhardy idea of the perverse left.

Just occasionally, we should be able to look at both history, and other cities [Baltimore, Portland, LA, Memphis, San Fran, Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, New York] and see what NOT to do.

[Richard]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I work for a university nearby; I'm actually a network admin at a library, but never theless, my point is that this is a thread about the murder of 3 and the injury of 5 young people at a state university, not an excuse for yet another argument on whether we need gun control or not. Especially when we are on a group that is for local discussion. And before you say E Lansing isn't local, the 3 kids who were brutally killed all come from the greater Detroit area. The discussion on here should be about how we can protect more young Michigan/Detroit students from being murder victims while they are being educated

Yes it should be,but along comes shooting comes the question of how we prevent them in the future,the first response within minutes is it’s the guns,if we remove guns from the picture then the problem is solved.

What people do not do is learn how the guns are protected by the constitution and what that means,and the best way to go about removing them or limiting them.

It becomes a copy and paste situation every time,and nothing gets accomplished.

Mass shooting happens,the guy uses a bump stock,okay we banned bump stocks,yay we won against them nasty gun owners,problem solved.

until the next time.

This case is unique because he did not have any connections to the school,how can you protect somebody if you do not understand the motives of those who wish to do harm to them.

Thats why it will always be a debate,there are some that wish to protect the students and there are those who use their deaths in order to further an agenda.

The gun is just something that you see touch and feel in order to center blame on something.

Inner city schools have had an issue with protecting the kids for decades,they could not solve the problem,those with means moved to another school district.

I had a friend in the 60s whose parents sent him to an all black school in Minneapolis,he got his ass beat every day for a week and then he started carrying a knife and a concealed billy club,he got his ass beat in the classroom,when a fight would break out,the teachers would just leave until it was over.

Voilence in school is not a new thing,what people find shocking is how it has gone from the inner cities to the burbs,and not for nothing but people never cared about it before,until it caught up to them.

Find some teachers from the 60s and 70s and ask them how they protected the children,most likely they could not then either otherwise protocols would have been established long ago.

A highly motivated individual is going to do what they set out to do,it’s their mission,blinders on whatever it takes.

All of these highly educated people with unlimited resources spend millions of dollars and the best they can come up with is it’s the guns fault.

People selling products can figure out what motivates someone to buy their products.

Posters here analyze other posters here ,who they never met,and based conclusion on that,but thousands of mental professionals do not to have a clue about what motivates a kid to shoot up a school.

Not that it matters ,as you can see most cannot comprehend anything over 10 words so it is just easy to say - it’s the gun .

You may be confused in thinking everybody is concerned about protecting children,to some it is just a means to an end.

I have mentioned before about a policy that has been proven to increase violence in schools,and as soon as I mentioned it is a liberal policy,people including yourself go on the attack in order to defend that policy,nobody cares about the kids that are being harmed because of it,it’s okay as long as they are being sacrificed in order to protect that policy.

I want to hear those who defend that policy say they would have had no issues when they were little girls in school and were raped,they would have no issues with the school not telling your parents and treating you like you deserved it so do not tell your parents so you do not get in trouble.

These are the people you are protecting while saying we need to protect the children.

Thats like handing your child to a known child molester and telling them to take care of your child and keep them from harm.

The students are being protected,they are being protected from having a criminal record with rape and assault charges and having to interact with the police while in school.

The trade of is innocent dead children in exchange.

If you want to protect the students you just have to decide which ones you want to protect and which ones you are willing to sacrifice in order to do that.

Personally I do not believe a dead innocent student is a fair trade of saving another one from having a criminal record because they raped another student with impunity.

But according to others I have a screwed up way of thinking so you get to travel down the path you have chosen,to bad that path is becoming lined with dead innocent students.

If you support a policy that puts a group of people on the train tracks,you cannot mourn their loss after the train runs them over.

Even worse when it is proven that if you stand on the tracks in front of the train you will die,and only those people put in front of the train dies ,but yet you still support it.

It may be time to think about what you are doing.

[Baselinepunk]

"100 million + deaths under Stalin, Mao, Poi Pot? Yep, the Left again, in the guise of Socialism and Communism.'

Ummm, FLMAO!!

Those were not "leftists". Those folks were dictators using Communism as a guise.

That's a 100% fact, jack and there ain't no take backs.

[Richard]

Marx,Lenin and Engles were considered the smartest leftists in history,they went on to establish the communist manifesto which set the base for socialism and communism,they actually wrote the book.

Stalinism is the means of governing and Marxist–Leninist policies implemented in the Soviet Unionfrom 1927 to 1953 by Joseph Stalin. It included the creation of a one-party totalitarian police state, rapid industrialization, the theory of that socialism in one country [[until 1939)

They did use bastardized versions or tweaked them to suit their needs but as a republic which had it roots long before our founding fathers tweaked it we are protected because it is designed to give power to the people and limit the governments role in the citizens life.

It was also formed in a time where countries were ruled by kings and the ruling class so the intent was to not allow a single person or small group control everybody.

The objective was exactly opposite of socialism or communism,because in those cases no matter how you spin it,the people do not have a voice or power,it is decided for them.

[Rocket]

The discussion on here should be about how we can protect more young Michigan/Detroit students from being murder victims while they are being educated

OK, fair enough. Thought you were a library admin at OU.

OK, so first step might be to get the schools to stop mandating that their campuses be official killing zones?

Start by repeaing this. https://trustees.msu.edu/bylaws-ordi...nce-18.00.html

These rules mean that no janitor, teacher, adult student etc can carry. So if a nut-bag wants to go on a killing spree, the nearby school is BY FAR the safest place to do it. The nut-bag's know for a fact that they'll be able to kill as many people as they wish before facing any sort of resistance. They'll have 10 min to an hour or more.

MSU's admin should face criminal charges in connection with what happened.


Another option would be to fire 150 unneeded administrators, and use their salaries to pay for 150 armed cops walking the campus. Better yet, both ideas together.

[Rocket]

Marx,Lenin and Engles were considered the smartest leftists in history.

Which is funny, as Marx was a colossal moron.

His second most famous book was Das Kapital ["Capital", about capitalism and capitalists], yet he had no idea what a capitalist even was, or what they did.

[jcole]

I attended OU

OK, fair enough. Thought you were a library admin at OU.

[Honky Tonk]

Which is funny, as Marx was a colossal moron.

His second most famous book was Das Kapital ["Capital", about capitalism and capitalists], yet he had no idea what a capitalist even was, or what they did.

[Henry Whalley]

Yes it should be...

tldr

[Henry Whalley]

"100 million + deaths under Stalin, Mao, Poi Pot? Yep, the Left again, in the guise of Socialism and Communism.'

So, perhaps there never were any real socialists or communists? And I hope there never will be any.

[Zacha341]

Having worked at several college [as faculty and dept. staff] campuses security has always been important - working alone or during my classes.

At one college campus, because I have the door key I always keep door locked during class - closing door once class starts. It can't be assumed that campuses are safe. Insane further that this murderer had no direct issue with MSU.

These are older videos but provide reflections back upon the students and our communities trying to cope with this tragedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytNahKskTpw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zCDlyLjJE

See also couple who helped authorities find the shooter:

[southen]

Another option would be to fire 150 unneeded administrators, and use their salaries to pay for 150 armed cops walking the campus. Better yet, both ideas together.

Ah yes nothing screams freedom quite like 150 armed personnel patrolling like a third world country. Check points and barricades as well? If we are going to harden the campus so you can ignore regulating weapons in any way, shape, or form, why not go all the way? If you ban more books and classes on race I'm sure you could add even more armed cops.

Why is it when you guys talk about the second amendment you always seem to gloss over the part that says "well regulated"?

[Zacha341]

^ Yep. Indeed some are uncomfortable but Wayne State, Oakland Community College and Wayne County Community Colleges have had armed security policing/ command centers for decades. As do exclusive gated communities replete of armed security often transparent to those residents made safe - yet no less present. DPSCD has metal detectors for their schools.

In the case with WSU and OCC both have police academy degree granting programs from which completers secure the area working with local policing. Not sure about WCCC, but their command center is complete.

[Henry Whalley]

Why is it when you guys talk about the second amendment you always seem to gloss over the part that says "well regulated"?

It doesn't matter what the Constitution says in plain English. SCOTUS wants to sell assault rifles and it has the final word. Things will change only when the ideology of SCOTUS shifts 180 degrees, and IMHO it will shift in a generation or two when enough terrorized school children are old enough to vote.

[jcole]

Almost ALL large and medium sized universities have police forces; actual police forces. Did none of you see the interviews with the chief and deputy chief of MSU's force on all the local channels? OU has had a police force since at least 1995 when I started there. What they don't have is any kind of punch card entrance requirements and other security that the kids themselves are asking for. The only local University that I know of with a closed campus and punch card is UDM. No one gets in there without approval. There is no way that someplace like UM can have a "closed campus" but they could have locked buildings with key card entry. Same for MSU, WS, OU and all the others. They don't need an armed cop with an assault rifle for every kid on campus, they just need some security that meets common sense guidelines.

[Jimaz]

...OU has had a police force since at least 1995....

Since at least 1973 in my experience, although it should be noted that the power of university security is legally limited compared to that of a normal police force.

[Richard]

Almost ALL large and medium sized universities have police forces; actual police forces. Did none of you see the interviews with the chief and deputy chief of MSU's force on all the local channels? OU has had a police force since at least 1995 when I started there. What they don't have is any kind of punch card entrance requirements and other security that the kids themselves are asking for. The only local University that I know of with a closed campus and punch card is UDM. No one gets in there without approval. There is no way that someplace like UM can have a "closed campus" but they could have locked buildings with key card entry. Same for MSU, WS, OU and all the others. They don't need an armed cop with an assault rifle for every kid on campus, they just need some security that meets common sense guidelines.

And that’s the difference between schools that have had shootings and those who have not


The schools that ignore red flags,withhold information from local law enforcement and try to keep everything in house have had shootings while the others have not and even prevented a few in the process.

There has never been a school shooting using an assault rifle,the police do not carry assault rifles.

Most schools decide not to have law enforcement on site because it traumatized the students with their presence.

[Richard]

QUOTE=Henry Whalley;631992]It doesn't matter what the Constitution says in plain English. SCOTUS wants to sell assault rifles and it has the final word. Things will change only when the ideology of SCOTUS shifts 180 degrees, and IMHO it will shift in a generation or two when enough terrorized school children are old enough to vote.[/QUOTE]

Nothing like using a false narrative in order to base a discussion,outside of private sales of existing assault weapons,they have not been available to the public sense 1986.

Because of that they are scarce and expensive,up to $30,000 so 99% of gun owners do not even own an assault weapon.

SCOTUS is governed by the constitution,instead of learning something verses pulling tdls out out of your south end while facing north,you are using a false narrative as a discussion and not really concerned about innocent lives.