Interstate 375 to be transformed into street level boulevard

[Gistok]

I for the life of me have no idea how a potential 9 lane I-375 roadway is going to "stitch" the 2 sides of the road together...

Parts of I-375 replacement in Detroit would be 9 lanes wide — and community is concerned [[msn.com)

[royce]

Some of the intersections with double turn-lanes seem so unnecessary, especially those that turn eastward. How many people, especially sports fans, use Jefferson, Larned, and Lafayette to go home heading East? I can see a double right turn lane at Jefferson for those wanting to head west towards the Lodge, but a double turn lane anywhere else, again, is unnecessary. Most sport fans heading home going east would use Gratiot. The maximum amount of lanes on either side of the planned median should be four at the most.

[Jason]

Since the turn lanes are so short, they don't have space for very many cars to line up, so they did the double turn lanes. I personally think double turn lanes, both getting into them, and also turning on them, is awkward for drivers, and they'll just add to the chaos of the road. Plus they push the total number of lanes up to unacceptable numbers.

What I would like to see would be very aggressive Michigan lefts. So if you're driving east on either Larned or Jefferson and you wanted to turn left to go north on the boulevard, you would instead turn south, and then make a U turn near Atwater. Yes, it would mean drivers would have to take a slightly longer route, but there would be plenty of space for cars making left turns, and this kind of setup is very simple and intuitive for drivers. It also makes the road much easier for pedestrians, since cars would only ever be coming from one direction.

I also had another idea, which is more extreme. In this idea, if you're traveling west from Jefferson, instead of continuing on Jefferson after crossing the boulevard, the road would jog diagonally and continue on Larned/Congress. And then the new boulevard would go round the corner and continue as Jefferson. The two roads would make a simple 4 way stop, arranged diagonally in the road space. The part of Larned in Lafayette Park would no longer be continuous to downtown across the boulevard. I think this would distribute traffic more evenly downtown, and it would be easy to drive on. It would require taking some of the gas station property though.

[Gistok]

I have a feeling that eliminating the freeway, and having I-375 as a boulevard is going to make traffic worse, thus negating any connectivity between downtown and Lafayette Park.

For anyone who has taken I-94 to Port Huron, and [instead of crossing the bridge into Canada] follows the road as M-25 northward... that stretch of roadway has a boulevard and is a very busy roadway. That in no way does anything to connect the east/west sides of M-25 in Port Huron, and is probably that towns busiest roadway.

I have a feeling that no one is going to be happy with the end result of I-375 as a very busy boulevard, possibly the busiest surface street in downtown.

I would be happier if they capped the existing freeway with the only exits at Lafayette and Larned [exit ramps from the freeway tunnel] and ending at the existing exit at Jefferson. Capping the freeway would help with greatly reduced surface roadway traffic, and help tie the 2 disconnected parts of the roadway. But that is not one of the options MDOT has presented.

[JonWylie]

I have a feeling that eliminating the freeway, and having I-375 as a boulevard is going to make traffic worse, thus negating any connectivity between downtown and Lafayette Park.

For anyone who has taken I-94 to Port Huron, and [instead of crossing the bridge into Canada] follows the road as M-25 northward... that stretch of roadway has a boulevard and is a very busy roadway. That in no way does anything to connect the east/west sides of M-25 in Port Huron, and is probably that towns busiest roadway.

I have a feeling that no one is going to be happy with the end result of I-375 as a very busy boulevard, possibly the busiest surface street in downtown.

I would be happier if they capped the existing freeway with the only exits at Lafayette and Larned [exit ramps from the freeway tunnel] and ending at the existing exit at Jefferson. Capping the freeway would help with greatly reduced surface roadway traffic, and help tie the 2 disconnected parts of the roadway. But that is not one of the options MDOT has presented.

The whole underlying goal of this is to decrease costs in the long run. Capping would probably be the most expensive option of all. I don't really think people will notice much in the way of traffic since this is less than a half mile long road. The traffic on 75 should flow much better as well since it will go from an interchange style ramp system to a gradual turn.

[Gistok]

The whole underlying goal of this is to decrease costs in the long run. Capping would probably be the most expensive option of all. I don't really think people will notice much in the way of traffic since this is less than a half mile long road. The traffic on 75 should flow much better as well since it will go from an interchange style ramp system to a gradual turn.

I don't disagree with what you are saying... only that our hopeful expectations and what really ends up happening with the best of the 6 MDOT options, may be 2 different scenarios.

The connectivity of downtown to Lafayette Park might never be realized.

[Jimaz]

Where's my flying car?

[JonWylie]

I don't disagree with what you are saying... only that our hopeful expectations and what really ends up happening with the best of the 6 MDOT options, may be 2 different scenarios.

The connectivity of downtown to Lafayette Park might never be realized.

The connectivity of downtown to Lafayette Park might not be realized with this plan, but it certainly puts it in the right direction. Removing the freeway is better than letting it remain, so that should be the first goal. Then the second should be making the new streetscape work for everyone. But we can't let goal 2 get in the way of goal 1.

[Wesley Mouch]

Would the contractors working on this project belocal Detroit contractors or strictly from MDOT?

It's an unpopular opinion, but I'd like to see the money go to the lowest qualified bidder, so we can get as much work done for the money as possible. But I understand why people like to make sure that political friends are given enough money to keep them rich and powerful.

[JonWylie]

It's an unpopular opinion, but I'd like to see the money go to the lowest qualified bidder, so we can get as much work done for the money as possible. But I understand why people like to make sure that political friends are given enough money to keep them rich and powerful.

MDOT already essentially uses a lowest qualified bid policy, which is probably why everyone complains about the road conditions.

[DetBill]

I for the life of me have no idea how a potential 9 lane I-375 roadway is going to "stitch" the 2 sides of the road together...

Parts of I-375 replacement in Detroit would be 9 lanes wide — and community is concerned [[msn.com)

As a resident living right at Lafayette and the freeway, I can certainly state the overwhelming majority here HATE this whole project. We had a community meeting at Chrysler Elementary with rep. Stephanie Chang and MDOT Reps a couple of weeks ago insisted by demand, the gym was packed with angry residents. When asked” how many attendees approve of this project and raising the freeway to road level “ not one person put their hands up. Why ?? Increase noise, garbage, traffic backups at Larned and Lafayette traffic lights, horrible access to downtown crossing 9 lanes, crime and street traffic filtering directly into our residences, loud music parading around at all hours . We are basically going to be severed during construction from downtown for close to three years as will traffic coming in every day from the east side and the Pointes .Jefferson will be severed also. When residents who walk and bike to work asked MDOT, “ how do we even get to work during this period, we have perfect access now” answer was that they will figure out access.. MDOT was then asked” how will emergency ambulances even access our areas from the medical center with everything closed off for three years, thats a matter of time for life and death..” MDOT replied they now realize this is an issue and will look into it..What a mess. Are we supposed to walk up to Mack several miles around daily. Events will be a disaster during and after completion. Traffic from Canadian workers every morning [[ 2500+ daily) , as well as many travellers, going to the burbs and city stopped at traffic lights will be very frustrated . Those of us who travel to the burbs in the morning also backed up at street level, now we just hop on a very quick freeway . Noise from bikers and music blasters at all hours during spring and summer will be materially increased, as traffic increases and road level noise increased, its presently materially absorbed due to the sunken freeway sides absorbing it and few of them use the freeway, just Jefferson ,and some Lafayette , but its not easily accessible like it will be . This will resemble/become a cross between Telegraph and Jefferson..We know our property values will plummet once the noise, traffic, garbage and crime increases. One person asked wisely” who absorbs the cost over runs of this 400 million [[ estimated two years ago) by completion date in 2028? It will probably double by then…” Answer,,” oh the state will”. Better spent on other road systems that need this badly. The overwhelming response by neighbors was to just leave the design as it is, it works perfectly for traffic movement, access to downtown for residents, workers , sports and entertainement , and noise absorption, spend a 100 million or so and just rebuild the two bridges, and rebuild the existing freeway roads,perhaps widen off-ramp to the casino and stadiums , it will take half the time to complete also. MDOT just stared and said nothing. What a mess this is, not well thought out and totally ignored what they are doing to this viable neighborhood despite our feedback, we know..we live here.. some people on here keep going on about how accessibility downtown will be so wonderful, we have excellent accessibility downtown NOW. . We literally just walk / run/ drive over the bridge right into downtown ,many of us several times a day, we are far more scared to have to go to a street level road with nine lanes across it and wait for traffic jams and traffic lights to change, you know many people are going to be frustrated at traffic lights that are jammed and start doing crazy things, run red lights etc, to get around it when there is pressure. An understanding of peoples behavior and how they drive anymore is essential here, again, we see this every day. And many of these drivers are extremely reckless. People are already saying, many after 20+/ 30+ plus years here that they are out of here, and leaving the city. Many of these people are very good Detroit citizens, who have invested heavily in the city and have been devoted to it for many years. Anyone looking at the new Lafayette West condos/ rentals would be crazy to buy/ live there, they will be right on top of this, one of just several very viable city neighborhoods will decline ,bigtime.

[Honky Tonk]

As a resident living right at Lafayette and the freeway, I can certainly state the overwhelming majority here HATE this whole project. We had a community meeting at Chrysler Elementary with rep. Stephanie Chang and MDOT Reps a couple of weeks ago insisted by demand, the gym was packed with angry residents. When asked” how many attendees approve of this project and raising the freeway to road level “ not one person put their hands up. Why ?? Increase noise, garbage, traffic backups at Larned and Lafayette traffic lights, horrible access to downtown crossing 9 lanes, crime and street traffic filtering directly into our residences, loud music parading around at all hours . We are basically going to be severed during construction from downtown for close to three years as will traffic coming in every day from the east side and the Pointes .Jefferson will be severed also. When residents who walk and bike to work asked MDOT, “ how do we even get to work during this period, we have perfect access now” answer was that they will figure out access.. MDOT was then asked” how will emergency ambulances even access our areas from the medical center with everything closed off for three years, thats a matter of time for life and death..” MDOT replied they now realize this is an issue and will look into it..What a mess. Are we supposed to walk up to Mack several miles around daily. Events will be a disaster during and after completion. Traffic from Canadian workers every morning [[ 2500+ daily) , as well as many travellers, going to the burbs and city stopped at traffic lights will be very frustrated . Those of us who travel to the burbs in the morning also backed up at street level, now we just hop on a very quick freeway . Noise from bikers and music blasters at all hours during spring and summer will be materially increased, as traffic increases and road level noise increased, its presently materially absorbed due to the sunken freeway sides absorbing it and few of them use the freeway, just Jefferson ,and some Lafayette , but its not easily accessible like it will be . This will resemble/become a cross between Telegraph and Jefferson..We know our property values will plummet once the noise, traffic, garbage and crime increases. One person asked wisely” who absorbs the cost over runs of this 400 million [[ estimated two years ago) by completion date in 2028? It will probably double by then…” Answer,,” oh the state will”. Better spent on other road systems that need this badly. The overwhelming response by neighbors was to just leave the design as it is, it works perfectly for traffic movement, access to downtown for residents, workers , sports and entertainement , and noise absorption, spend a 100 million or so and just rebuild the two bridges, and rebuild the existing freeway roads,perhaps widen off-ramp to the casino and stadiums , it will take half the time to complete also. MDOT just stared and said nothing. What a mess this is, not well thought out and totally ignored what they are doing to this viable neighborhood despite our feedback, we know..we live here.. some people on here keep going on about how accessibility downtown will be so wonderful, we have excellent accessibility downtown NOW. . We literally just walk / run/ drive over the bridge right into downtown ,many of us several times a day, we are far more scared to have to go to a street level road with nine lanes across it and wait for traffic jams and traffic lights to change, you know many people are going to be frustrated at traffic lights that are jammed and start doing crazy things, run red lights etc, to get around it when there is pressure. An understanding of peoples behavior and how they drive anymore is essential here, again, we see this every day. And many of these drivers are extremely reckless. People are already saying, many after 20+/ 30+ plus years here that they are out of here, and leaving the city. Many of these people are very good Detroit citizens, who have invested heavily in the city and have been devoted to it for many years. Anyone looking at the new Lafayette West condos/ rentals would be crazy to buy/ live there, they will be right on top of this, one of just several very viable city neighborhoods will decline ,bigtime.

FINALLY, a voice of reason. I'm getting the same response as your post from people I know living in that area.

[southen]

The NIMBYism of Lafayette Park is probably the only thing that ever bothers me about living there. I am closer to the freeway than anyone else in the neighborhood and I can already hear cars zipping up and down at speeds probably in excess of 100mph. Rivard and Lafayette are already packed on Friday and Saturday nights with people blasting music. Those going in and out of downtown will continue to use the East/West streets to get in, they aren't suddenly going to zip up and down this new road because all it does is lead to the freeway. What you might see though with slower speeds and building infill is a slowing down of vehicles and reduction in noise because more people are present.

Also, to say in the same paragraph that we don't need more walkability because it is incredibly walkable already while then claiming that added access will lead to more people coming in for crime is pretty funny. LP is the wealthiest neighborhood east of downtown until you get to Indian Village. There is already a target on the place for anyone looking to commit any crime.

375 no matter what iteration will be the most efficient way in and out of downtown. The North/South streets east of downtown won't be a more desirable route than 375. The time added will also be negligible. If you take the Lafayette exit to get to the neighborhood from 375 as it is today you are often sitting in a long line at two lights due to the casino and the off ramp choke point. If anything this may speed up getting to the neighborhood.

Not all people who live in the neighborhood completely hate the project.

[Lowell]

Very interesting POV's DetroitBill and Southen. Makes me wonder if there has been any consideration of compromise, like covering large portions of 375 like what exists over 696 in Oak Park, creating green spaces and muffling sound. Anything like that been suggested? Could that be a YIMBY [Yes in my backyard] solution?

[JonWylie]

Very interesting POV's DetroitBill and Southen. Makes me wonder if there has been any consideration of compromise, like covering large portions of 375 like what exists over 696 in Oak Park, creating green spaces and muffling sound. Anything like that been suggested? Could that be a YIMBY [Yes in my backyard] solution?

This solution removes the whole incentive of the project driving down costs in the long run. By removing the highway and bridges, cost of maintenance goes down in the long run, so capping would run totally opposite of that.

[Gistok]

Very interesting POV's DetroitBill and Southen. Makes me wonder if there has been any consideration of compromise, like covering large portions of 375 like what exists over 696 in Oak Park, creating green spaces and muffling sound. Anything like that been suggested? Could that be a YIMBY [Yes in my backyard] solution?

That was why I mentioned Port Huron... where I-94 ends, and if you are not going to Canada, then your only option is a N/S boulevard M-25 that always seems to be crowded in the day time, and doesn't connect the E/W sides of the neighborhood in any way.

[erikd]

Very interesting POV's DetroitBill and Southen. Makes me wonder if there has been any consideration of compromise, like covering large portions of 375 like what exists over 696 in Oak Park, creating green spaces and muffling sound. Anything like that been suggested? Could that be a YIMBY [Yes in my backyard] solution?

Yes, the idea of capping 375 has been floated, but it would be extremely expensive and probably not the best option for this case. If we had the money to cap a freeway in the downtown area, it would be much better spent capping I-75 between the Lodge and the Chrysler, which cuts off downtown from the Cass Corridor and Brush Park.

And to expand on the point made by Southern that the current configuration of I-375 creates a choke point at Lafayette, and actually makes it take longer to get to Lafayette Park, he is absolutely correct.

Contrary to popular belief, I-375 was not designed to to improve access to Downtown Detroit, Lafayette Park, and the other areas that it goes through. It was designed to limit access to those areas of the city in order to create easy access to the Detroit/Windsor tunnel from I-75.

Removing I-375 and replacing it with a surface level boulevard will significantly improve access to Greektown, Lafayette Park, East Jefferson, the east riverfront, and the Ren Cen. The only thing that it will hinder access to is the tunnel, which is easily overcome by crossing over from I-75 to the Lodge if you are coming south into the city in order to get to the tunnel.

[royce]

DetBill, you and those Lafayette Park residents who are against 375 being turned into a boulevard are simply overreacting to this change. Southern makes a lot of valid points as to why making it a boulevard is a good thing. Now, I want to add a few points. First of all, I'm sure the construction of the boulevard will be done in stages, where access to downtown via the east/west streets will continue. I imagine you either start with closing down Jefferson, then Larned, then Lafayette, then Monroe to Gratiot or vice-versa. Not all of the east/west roads are going to be closed at the same time. But let's say that they are. Then you can take Rivard to Lafayette to St. Aubin to Gratiot and get on I-75 from Gratiot, or take Rivard to Atwater to Beaubien, or Bates to get to central downtown.

Secondly, even if there are nine lanes to the boulevard [[and that's only at a few streets and I agree that's too many lanes), there is a median where you can stand and wait to cross the next set of lanes.

Thirdly, I don't see traffic backups becoming a serious problem. People will find alternative routes. Once the section of the boulevard is built at Gratiot and north of Gratiot, there will be several ways to get into downtown that less traffic will probably travel south of Gratiot than it does now.

Fourthly and finally, I don't see crime increasing. There will still be a block and a half and maybe two between the residences east of Rivard and the new boulevard. Those moving into Lafayette West might have to deal with criminal activity along the boulevard, but even they will still be a block away from the boulevard. Current Lafayette residents have nothing to worry about. Also, always remember that 375 is coming to the end of its useful life and needs a major overhaul. We have an opportunity to do something different now. If it doesn't work, then in 50 years they can put the freeway back. Well, that's my two cents.

[royce]

A little off topic, but instead of dumping tons of rock and dirt to fill in the freeway, MDOT should seriously consider putting in an underground parking deck under the new boulevard. Yes, it cost more, but revenue from parking would be a way to recoup the cost.

[swingline]

Has there been an announcement of plans for the hundreds of acres of newly created vacant land that will result if the boulevard plan is actually built? Obviously specific projects cannot be planned but the uses might be specified. Huge new tracts of property will be created southeast of Brush Park, south of Eastern Market, and all along the length of the new boulevard. I've tried to follow the discussions and announcements of MDOT, State of Michigan and the City of Detroit but don't recall seeing, reading or hearing anything definitive. What entity will own this land previously located within the old freeway footprint? Will it be released for development? The area certainly doesn't need more green space. The area needs more density. Development seems like the best use. If the old I375 footprint is not going to be reduced, why spend the money on such a complex new project?

[Gistok]

^ I don't think much new development land will be created. I think that we will end up with the 9 lanes of traffic as mentioned with a broad boulevard between NB and SB I-375, and if there is any room for additional commercial space, it will likely be on the east side of the roadway. As nice as it sounds that stores, etc., could line the east side of the new boulevard, I don't think that the folks in Lafayette Park want to be facing the back alley of storefronts, or the parking lots that will be needed behind them. With I-375 as a boulevard, I don't think that parallel parking will ideal along the boulevard.

The one thing about this project that concerns me is what will become of the Madison Ave. "spillway" as I like to call it... that road is a major way for folks to get to and from the Theatre and Stadia district. Remove that easy access, and downtown will become even more gridlocked before/after events down there. People will find the quickest escape from the gridlock, and if it means going thru Lafayette Park, or other streets, instead of trying to get to I-75, then that is how they will go. I have a vision of folks trying to make a left turn from Gratiot to NB I-375 Blvd, and that backup will be enormous, with left turn lane folks backed up for 1/4 mile or more after events. Ditto for during evening rush hour.

[royce]

Swingline, the discussion has implied that descendants of blacks who were displaced by the freeway for "urban renewal/negro removal," should have some of the land that will become available. How to work that out is the next big controversy regarding this project. It's funny that MDOT only refers to the new boulevard as the "new boulevard." It is clear that many want "Hastings" or "Hastings Boulevard" to be the name. We shall see.

Also, the way this extra land will be situated south of Gratiot, there really isn't going to be a lot of room for anything substantial. Some townhouse/row house type of residential or thin apartment buildings could fit. MDOT is not making room for any parking along the boulevard between Gratiot and Jefferson so commercial/retail isn't really viable unless they have parking lots, and that will just gobble up the small amount of land that you have.

Personally, I think MDOT would do better to keep the service drives as they are, but add another lane on each side for parking [[therefore four one way lanes in each direction, with Michigan-left turn lanes carved into the median). The median would be wider like the median along Moross Street, south of Kelly Road to Mack Avenue. Retail could either face the east/west streets or face the old service drive lanes, but that fourth lane would then be used for parking along the median. If they faced the east west streets like Jefferson, Lafayette, Monroe, Macomb, and Gratiot, then parking lots would be behind the establishments or an underground parking garage could be used for parking needs. In some spots you could have pocket parks.

My proposal is probably something MDOT has never considered. Also, if they build an underground parking structure under the boulevard from Jefferson all the way to Gratiot they wouldn't need that much rock and dirt for infill. Well, that's my two cents.

[royce]

^ I don't think much new development land will be created. I think that we will end up with the 9 lanes of traffic as mentioned with a broad boulevard between NB and SB I-375, and if there is any room for additional commercial space, it will likely be on the east side of the roadway. As nice as it sounds that stores, etc., could line the east side of the new boulevard, I don't think that the folks in Lafayette Park want to be facing the back alley of storefronts, or the parking lots that will be needed behind them. With I-375 as a boulevard, I don't think that parallel parking will ideal along the boulevard.

The one thing about this project that concerns me is what will become of the Madison Ave. "spillway" as I like to call it... that road is a major way for folks to get to and from the Theatre and Stadia district. Remove that easy access, and downtown will become even more gridlocked before/after events down there. People will find the quickest escape from the gridlock, and if it means going thru Lafayette Park, or other streets, instead of trying to get to I-75, then that is how they will go. I have a vision of folks trying to make a left turn from Gratiot to NB I-375 Blvd, and that backup will be enormous, with left turn lane folks backed up for 1/4 mile or more after events. Ditto for during evening rush hour.

Actually, Gistok, the land will be between the east service drive and the lanes for the new boulevard. Only the residents in the new Lafayette Park West development would see the back of any stores and their parking lots. In the plans, the east service drive at Monroe to Gratiot will become a two-way street. Below Monroe to Jefferson, the east service drive will just be a part of the new land. I asked an MDOT representative why not continue the two-way lane all the way to Jefferson and he said that that would create backups along Lafayette, Larned, and Jefferson. I suggested that instead of a two-way lane [[Gratiot to Monroe and vice versa) and just land from Monroe to Jefferson, that they make it a one way alley with two or three lanes so that any businesses along the new boulevard would have an alley and the residents along the Jean Rivard Apartments could still have parking for their guests [[basically keep the east service drive as I suggested in my previous posts). The MDOT reps simply said they would take it under advisement.

Regarding the Madison "spillway," the plans that MDOT has shown shows the boulevard terminating [[heading north), or beginning [[heading south) over the current I-75 freeway/I-75 extender to Gratiot. In that rendering cars will come up from I-75 to the new boulevard and be able to turn right onto Gratiot, no longer needing the Madison Avenue exit/entrance. Somewhere, traffic from Madison heading east towards I-75 will be diverted to Gratiot along Beaubien and or St. Antoine.

[K-slice]

Swingline, the discussion has implied that descendants of blacks who were displaced by the freeway for "urban renewal/negro removal," should have some of the land that will become available. How to work that out is the next big controversy regarding this project. It's funny that MDOT only refers to the new boulevard as the "new boulevard." It is clear that many want "Hastings" or "Hastings Boulevard" to be the name. We shall see.

I've heard this too and on it's face it's absolutely idiotic. It doesn't take much to realize that if you were born on the day 375 opened, you would be 60 years old now. If you owned a home owned a business' in the area then you're 80+ years old. The time that has past alone makes any talk of giving this land back to the previous owners absurd. Then factor in that sorting out who actually lived in the area and who is pretending to would be nearly impossible, or the fact that while the area predominantly housed African Americans, no small number of the buildings and land were OWNED by European Americans.

The land should be offered to those with the ability to put it to it's highest and best use. Look to the future, not the past.

[JonWylie]

^ I don't think much new development land will be created. I think that we will end up with the 9 lanes of traffic as mentioned with a broad boulevard between NB and SB I-375, and if there is any room for additional commercial space, it will likely be on the east side of the roadway. As nice as it sounds that stores, etc., could line the east side of the new boulevard, I don't think that the folks in Lafayette Park want to be facing the back alley of storefronts, or the parking lots that will be needed behind them. With I-375 as a boulevard, I don't think that parallel parking will ideal along the boulevard.

The one thing about this project that concerns me is what will become of the Madison Ave. "spillway" as I like to call it... that road is a major way for folks to get to and from the Theatre and Stadia district. Remove that easy access, and downtown will become even more gridlocked before/after events down there. People will find the quickest escape from the gridlock, and if it means going thru Lafayette Park, or other streets, instead of trying to get to I-75, then that is how they will go. I have a vision of folks trying to make a left turn from Gratiot to NB I-375 Blvd, and that backup will be enormous, with left turn lane folks backed up for 1/4 mile or more after events. Ditto for during evening rush hour.

They can always take the bus