Ontario nurses fleeing Canada for American jobs

[Margaret's boy]

This story is more for anyone planning to visit Ontario from Michigan. Canadian, not just Ontario, health care is crisis, with nurses fleeing hospitals in Windsor, London and Toronto for nursing jobs in Michigan, Ohio and New York. I would love to hear from the American forum on how health care in Michigan compares to Ontario and how we can fix it .VITAL SIGNS OF TROUBLE: Many Ontario nurses fleeing for U.S. jobs | Toronto Sun

[Satiricalivory]

Healthcare in the states is garbage. Compares horribly to any public healthcare system in the developed countries of the world.

[Seven&wyo]

Healthcare in the states is garbage. Compares horribly to any public healthcare system in the developed countries of the world.

Yes like the health system in Italy that collapsed from the flew in 2018[[maybe 16) or the health system of Canada where nurses are under paid and people go months in need of a doctor. Yes we pay for medicine but the incentive to make a profit drives innovation in medicine. Also 80%-90% of all hospitalization in the US are lifestyle driven of that group over 75% are obese. If you want to stay out of the hospital here don’t be a fat fuck. You are completely wrong about this

[Satiricalivory]

Yes like the health system in Italy that collapsed from the flew in 2018[[maybe 16) or the health system of Canada where nurses are under paid and people go months in need of a doctor. Yes we pay for medicine but the incentive to make a profit drives innovation in medicine. Also 80%-90% of all hospitalization in the US are lifestyle driven of that group over 75% are obese. If you want to stay out of the hospital here don’t be a fat fuck. You are completely wrong about this

This is bootlicker drivel. Paying the highest costs for healthcare in the world doesn't drive innovation at all, it only lines the pockets of greedy CEOs and billionaires. We have the worst and most expensive healthcare of any western country by far, it's franky embarrassing.

[Seven&wyo]

This is bootlicker drivel. Paying the highest costs for healthcare in the world doesn't drive innovation at all, it only lines the pockets of greedy CEOs and billionaires. We have the worst and most expensive healthcare of any western country by far, it's franky embarrassing.

Profit doesn’t drive innovation at all? You think finding a cure to a sickness or finding a way to make it more excessable to more people isn’t a drive for profit? I think I smell an angry Bernie voter

[Wheels]

Healthcare in the states is garbage. Compares horribly to any public healthcare system in the developed countries of the world.

Ya I guess that’s why nurses are leaving the powerful socialist system in Canadian and coming to our woeful system in the States right genius?

[Satiricalivory]

Ya I guess that’s why nurses are leaving the powerful socialist system in Canadian and coming to our woeful system in the States right genius?

Oh yeah we're so much better hurr durrh. And I guess that's why people go bankrupt or just fucking die because they don't have healthcare in the United States, and that's why our life expectancy is lower than Canada too.

You're really smart.

[Seven&wyo]

Oh yeah we're so much better hurr durrh. And I guess that's why people go bankrupt or just fucking die because they don't have healthcare in the United States, and that's why our life expectancy is lower than Canada too.

You're really smart.

Hey dude if you want to make a point statistics and facts could help. How many of those bankruptcies were from preventable diseases? How many actually die? Why is life expectancy lower here than Canada? Time to do some thinking buddy

[southen]

Hey dude if you want to make a point statistics and facts could help. How many of those bankruptcies were from preventable diseases? How many actually die? Why is life expectancy lower here than Canada? Time to do some thinking buddy

Facts like your father being 75 and being in perfect health therefore it is just out of shape people that have issues? Facts like the "vast VAST" majority of Type 2 diabetics not having any self control? Facts like that? Apparently being a jackass making wild assumptions about huge swaths of the population is now a "fact."

[Zacha341]

I disagree. Depends on the care and situation. I had a surgery years ago based on techniques co-developed in Mexico. Went great. Then there are problems that can occur. IMO, the US remains top-notch in trauma care [putting you back together after a car accident for example].

It can even be argued that we lead in Trauma due to our culture which is research motivated re. that form of care, etc. Other countries not as much in some cases. Especially poorer nations.

Additionally, health care for the middle-class, though expensive is still accessible as we yet have a middle-class [last I checked] demanding and paying [via their premiums] for such offered. Looking at some countries we have medicine 'practiced' from the extremes of the haves vs. have nots - with very little in between. I have family in and from the Caribbeans and they kiss-the-ground of US re. our health care as too often unless you're very well off financially care is unapologetically bad, if even available.

I had a friend seriously injured in Italy, requiring highly skilled trauma care for a back injury. He was basically deposited at a local hospital engaged in that case, medieval options that his doctor locally per a phone call discouraged. Though in severe pain [and barey mobile] he got on the first plane heading home. Once arriving doctors confirmed that the procedures offered would have rendered him in far worse shape.

Healthcare in the states is garbage. Compares horribly to any public healthcare system in the developed countries of the world.

[401don]

It's been the same thing for years. You have a private system next door to a public system. There are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both. Canadian doctors, particularly specialists, have fled to the U.S. for decades for the higher salaries. That of course makes the biggest Canadian problem, wait times, much worse. On the other hand, as a Canadian who's had a few surgeries in recent years, I certainly wouldn't change our system for theirs. The nursing shortage is becoming critical however with the ER depts. that have closed at various times.
Canadians cringe at a fee payer system but the fact is if you allow some privatization for specific tests and procedures it would reduce both costs overall and wait times for those receiving free gov't care.

[Margaret's boy]

It's not the same old story. I've witnessed loved ones being failed by our troubled health care while those with deep pockets can go anywhere to access the best health care. It's time the chattering classes in Canada shut up, quit drinking the propaganda our political establishment feeds us through the media, and listen to the nurses, who are the true champions of Canadian health care.

[401don]

It's not the same old story. I've witnessed loved ones being failed by our troubled health care while those with deep pockets can go anywhere to access the best health care. It's time the chattering classes in Canada shut up, quit drinking the propaganda our political establishment feeds us through the media, and listen to the nurses, who are the true champions of Canadian health care.

Exactly where do those with deep pockets go within Canada? Obviously they can pay and get the care in the U.S., the same as wealthy Americans. If you think our system favors the wealthy, you must really hate their system. If the U.S. had universal care, like every other industrialized country in the world, the pay structures would be similar to ours and Canadian doctors and nurses wouldn't be going there.
My wife needed a special stent for her brain a few years ago and our gov't flew in the stent and a surgeon from California to oversee the procedure. The cost of that, excluding the surgery, was $40,000.

[canuck]

It's not the same old story. I've witnessed loved ones being failed by our troubled health care while those with deep pockets can go anywhere to access the best health care. It's time the chattering classes in Canada shut up, quit drinking the propaganda our political establishment feeds us through the media, and listen to the nurses, who are the true champions of Canadian health care.

My health care heroes are assistant nurses. Beyond that, we can root for nurses, assistants and orderlies, but let’s not forget that if you need some surgery, it’s nice to leave that in a surgeon’s able hands, too.

[Ray1936]

Hey, we're all gonna die anyway. Even the nurses and doctors. So there.

[oladub]

Average Canadians lifespans are 3 years longer than those in the USA. So, on average, Canadian healthcare is better. I don't know of a better way to measure it. However, Americans with insurance and rich Americans who have really good insurance have better care than those who do not. Even my union's health care policy, combined with Medicare does a good job. The only bills I have are regular payments to both plans and the first $10 of each prescription. When my wife had a heart attack, I saw bills for $64,000 but didn't have to pay a penny of it. I do have some problems scheduling appointments with my regular doctor. They always want to assign me to a nurse but I can show up in clinic to see a doctor I don't know within a couple of hours.

Canadian nurses leaving is nothing new. About 30+ years ago, I met two northern Ontario nurses who spent some months every winter working in a different part of the States. It was like a working vacation for them. I know they went to Boston and Florida on two of their forays.

[Seven&wyo]

Average Canadians lifespans are 3 years longer than those in the USA. So, on average, Canadian healthcare is better. I don't know of a better way to measure it. However, Americans with insurance and rich Americans who have really good insurance have better care than those who do not. Even my union's health care policy, combined with Medicare does a good job. The only bills I have are regular payments to both plans and the first $10 of each prescription. When my wife had a heart attack, I saw bills for $64,000 but didn't have to pay a penny of it. I do have some problems scheduling appointments with my regular doctor. They always want to assign me to a nurse but I can show up in clinic to see a doctor I don't know within a couple of hours.

Canadian nurses leaving is nothing new. About 30+ years ago, I met two northern Ontario nurses who spent some months every winter working in a different part of the States. It was like a working vacation for them. I know they went to Boston and Florida on two of their forays.

Americans are severely over weight that’s why it’s lower, not healthcare.

[Wesley Mouch]

Average Canadians lifespans are 3 years longer than those in the USA. ...snip...

This appears true, but comparative quality of the healthcare systems is not likely the biggest factor. Were that things were so simple.

Canada has a forced single-payer system, with near-zero tolerance for private care. They are an outlier, with most other government-run healthcare systems allowing some private care. Close proximity to a fee-for-service healthcare enables them to try to hold this moral high ground.

What's going to happen now in the near future is a 'stress test' of the Canadian system. Their system is a top-down managed system where [[virtually) everything is managed by bureaucrats funded by politicians. Its not just single-payer, but single-management. That's the weakness. Healthcare north of us is decided in smoke-filled rooms or by faceless administrators. Innovation arrives when its allowed, and not a moment before. Think about the joys of having your wait for healthcare managed by the same people who manage our Secretary of State's offices.

[Canadian Visitor]

This appears true, but comparative quality of the healthcare systems is not likely the biggest factor. Were that things were so simple.

That's fair, a closer examination would reveal multiple things at work in that difference; they range from lifestyle issues to crime levels to yes, health systems. But, on that latter point, you'd find some conditions for which outcomes are demonstrably better in Canada, some that are better in the U.S. and many that pretty close to interchangeable.

Canada has a forced single-payer system, with near-zero tolerance for private care. They are an outlier, with most other government-run healthcare systems allowing some private care. Close proximity to a fee-for-service healthcare enables them to try to hold this moral high ground.

This statement lacks nuance. Doctors in Canada are free-standing independent businesses, not employees of the state.

There are no quotas or funding limits as it pertains to procedures performed by or prescriptions or referrals made by doctors. Hospitals manage their day-to-day care without discussing anything with government bureaucrats.

That said, governments do have certain de facto controls over the volume of some types of procedures.

They generally control hospital base budgets which include overhead/admin, porters, nurses and others who don't bill for procedures/performance.

In that way, they may impact how many dollars a hospital has available to operate O/Rs as an example.

The government generally also controls access to expensive procedures insofar as it funds the purchase of equipment or the operating hours for certain things.

An example here would be PET Scanners. Your doctor decides whether you need one, the government does not. But the government does decide how many Scanners exist, where they are located, and how many 'base' hours are funded in a dedicated budget [[hospitals routinely operate machines beyond government allocated hours from their general/base funds)

What's going to happen now in the near future is a 'stress test' of the Canadian system. Their system is a top-down managed system where [[virtually) everything is managed by bureaucrats funded by politicians. Its not just single-payer, but single-management. That's the weakness. Healthcare north of us is decided in smoke-filled rooms or by faceless administrators. Innovation arrives when its allowed, and not a moment before. Think about the joys of having your wait for healthcare managed by the same people who manage our Secretary of State's offices.

Again, this is substantially wrong. I outlined the gist above.

That said, yes, the system in many provinces is under stress and Ontario's more than most, as it has comparatively fewer hospital beds and nurses relative to population.

A variety of actions are under way to address this in the medium term [[example, Ontario just approved 4 new medical schools to begin operating); but there is an obvious lag time on many changes [[graduating new doctors takes ~ 7 years).

The key stressor is the short term 3-5 years in which Ontario needs to fill personnel gaps before newly trained people are ready. This will almost certainly need to involve licensing foreign doctors who are already here, but heretofore have been unable to get a residency or waiver of the need for same. This is in the media and I expect some resolution will be forthcoming soon, but even then, it likely take a year to see a material difference.

Additional beds and equipment have been approved, but there is a lag time for construction, obviously, so Ontario/Canada is now living with having deferred some investments during a period in which balanced budgets and/or lower taxes were given priority over enhanced healthcare investment.

The next year plus will a severe challenge.........but beyond that things should improve.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
This statement lacks nuance. Doctors in Canada are free-standing independent businesses, not employees of the state.
...snip...

That suggests Canadian provinces are not 'single-payer'?

What percentage of their revenues come from other than provincial gov't?

The next year plus will a severe challenge.........but beyond that things should improve.

Your details are interesting. Do you believe that more central planning now will solve all the problems created by past central planning? Colour me doubtful.

I believe that while you've painted a picture of a wonderful ship with just a few problems that are just waiting to be solved. But they weren't. And there are no more problems around the corner. No. Everything will be great.

Central planning is wonderful.

[Canadian Visitor]

That suggests Canadian provinces are not 'single-payer'?

No, I did not suggest that.

A single insurance company for 'core' health services is single-payer.

But that insurance company does not decide which procedures go to whom or precisely how many are done.

What percentage of their revenues come from other than provincial gov't?

Every hospital will have a slightly different breakdown, but here's the financials from UHN, the province's largest hospital network:

https://www.uhn.ca/corporate/AboutUH..._2020_2021.pdf

Just over 60% of UHN's revenues come from the Ministry of Health acting as the insurer.

Other revenues include grants, endowments and trusts, the University of Toronto, ancillary services, income from on-site retail, parking, phone/cable/internet for patients [[not an insured service) etc.

Your details are interesting. Do you believe that more central planning now will solve all the problems created by past central planning? Colour me doubtful.

That's like asking whether you believe that the absence of coordination, regulation and a public option in the U.S., are the answer to the problems of uninsured and under insured Americans, excessive pricing/gouging on hospital procedures and prescriptions, and unnecessary tests and procedures.

Which is to say, the system is not wholly centrally planned, but portions of it are; that is largely unavoidable and a common facet of healthcare globally.

Those portions that necessarily planned will, invariably have good periods of high innovation/investment and poor periods an these will also vary across different sub-sections of the Healthcare system at any given time.

Of course our system is imperfect, and it remains such and will remain such.

As is the U.S. system.

The idea here to be able to express that with nuance.

I believe that while you've painted a picture of a wonderful ship with just a few problems that are just waiting to be solved. But they weren't. And there are no more problems around the corner. No. Everything will be great.

Central planning is wonderful.

I said none of this, and you would do well to stop putting words in the mouths of others that they neither spoke nor typed.

***

The problem here is not that you observe that the Canadian [[really Ontarian for our purposes) healthcare model has its problems. Duh!

Rather, its that you insist they are worse than they are; and that the U.S.has a model that would work better.

Con't below in next post to keep things readable.

[Lowell]

Canadian nurses in US hospitals, especially Detroit, is ancient news. They are not “fleeing” Canada, they are attracted by a wasteful US healthcare system that has driven up cost everywhere particularly for the consumer.

Although Healthcare coverage in US has greatly expanded, thanks to the affordable care act a.k.a. Obamacare, it still requires effort to renew every year and pay every month.

For those who get coverage through their jobs it requires them to keep their jobs. If you lose your job you lose healthcare coverage and are on your own. That is not the case in Canada. you may have to get to in line to get certain procedures in Canada but at the basic level you are taken care of regardless of your job fortunes.

Over time huge numbers of Americans have been driven to bankruptcy by lack of healthcare coverage. It is unlikely that has ever happened in Canada.

And, as noted by Oladub above, healthcare outcomes in Canada are superior to those in the United States unless you can afford the very expensive healthcare coverage that the better off or those on Medicare have. This explains why no Canadian politician would seriously challenge Canadas national health program anymore that any American politician would dare challenge Medicare.

[Honky Tonk]

The United States ranks about 18th as far as Healthcare in the world, depending which survey you believe and how they go about gathering their information. We are the most expensive and least cost effective without a doubt, which is why Canada is losing nurses. It's all about the money. Either the AMA or the NRA rank #1 for having the most powerful lobbying group. That makes sure they stay lucrative. You can easily look all this up by using your favorite search engine.

[Rocket]

We are the most expensive and least cost effective without a doubt, which is why Canada is losing nurses. It's all about the money. Either the AMA or the NRA rank #1 for having the most powerful lobbying group. That makes sure they stay lucrative. You can easily look all this up by using your favorite search engine.

The AMA is the overwhelming problem in USA healthcare, and needs to be neutered.

It was never intended to help the public.

It was started by John D. Rockefeller to increase his profits. Anyone interested could look up Abraham Flexner to know more.

[Dexlin]

Seriously, the Toronto Sun? lol Come on, now.