Will You USE Blended Ethanol Gas in Your Car? Will it help?

[ABetterDetroit]

Ethanol from feed corn was a bad subsidized idea from the start. Hopefully at these fuel prices the subsidies will be less. I doubt it tho, Republicans like to give money away to farmers and Democrats will deal on those to get their own giveaways. At least the 30 Billion Trump gave away to soy bean farmers should have those guys properly funded to grow a lot of food this season to help out with food shortages.

It is hard to determine which party is just dumb or dumber these days for fiscal conservatives. Biden sure is barreling thru the cash but can he double what Trump spent in money we don’t have? That’s a tall order. Trumps deficit of 8+ Trillion in 4 years [almost exactly the same as Obama raised the deficit in 8 years] sets a really high bar of spending money we don’t have.

Lets not forget that Tariffs and runaway high deficit spending are directly linked to inflation in any Economics 101 textbook but of course that would mean that both parties have contributed to some of the inflation and that could mess with the ‘my political team I cheer for is perfect and the other is evil’ useless problem solving process. Many would never use logic instead of hate. Hate is so emotional and logic well, isn’t emotional. It would require analytical thought on all the factors contributing to how this inflation is charging as opposed to a predetermined villian to blame.

[oladub]

I agree that Trump spent too much. He averaged $1.2T/year for three years and spent $4.2T in 2020 to deal with Covid and its resulting recession. Congress passed all this spending too and I don't remember any Democrats who opposed all this spending. Biden and Congress even added $.5T to the 2021 budget Trump and Congress passed. However, even without Covid spending, if Trump kept averaging $1.2T of debt x8 years, his debt would have been greater than Obama's. Maybe we agree that some other Republican or Democrat who could cut $1-3T of debt out of the annual budget is needed.

Back to ethanol. We have had ethanol subsidies since 2005. The Atlantic had an article putting part of the blame for Putin's war on ethanol.

The U.S. Subsidy That Empowers Putin Ending America’s foolish subsidies for ethanol could aid Ukraine.

"Demand from the ethanol industry, in turn, bids up the price of corn, and the income of those who farm it. "Postcommunist Russia has emerged as the world’s largest exporter of wheat. If Putin can absorb Ukraine—also an important wheat producer—the enlarged Russian empire would provide almost one-third of the world’s wheat exports. Russia has become so dominant in wheat markets in great part because America has retreated from them. U.S. wheat production was about one-thirdlower in 2018 than at its peak in the early 1980s. Wheat has yielded to corn. Almost 70 percent of all U.S. grain production is now corn, up from 47 percent in the late 1960s. And of that immense crop of corn, almost half is formulated into ethanol to drive cars and trucks."

[Richard]

They are pushing E85 - or Flex fuel most likely because they are realizing that they cannot just flip to EVs.

Corn subsidies actually was the brain child of a man called Earl Burtz who was the agricultural commissioner under Nixon in the 70s,his view was farmers needed to go big or go away and large industrial farming was the only way to go.

Corn loses $1 per bushel sold and in order to control food prices they thought it was better that the government controls the price instead of the free market.

Corporations said they were not going to sell corn at a loss and sense they were going to have control over the market the government said,okay we will subside it,then the small farmers took the heat over it and still continue to do so today.

People have a strange way of viewing things,the government is not subsidizing the evil farmers,they are subsidizing our food supply.

One way or another the farmers are not going to sell for a loss,so either pay more for corn based products,which includes a lot of what we eat,or it gets subsidized.

If you are looking to blame somebody go back to Nixon and the push to remove the farmers from the equation.

I am sure the farmers would rather be able to sell their crops at market value verses a set price that is determined by the government.

Sense the government already controls the corn,who do you think then controls the gasoline market if the goal is E85 where only 15% is fossil fuel,it’s not a democrat or republicans thing,it’s a socialist thing where the government controls the market.

The first thing Chavez did was undercut the farmers and sold products at market cheaper then they could produce it,after they were pushed out he then controlled the food supply,next he Nationalized the fuel production and set the price.

Remember back in the 70s and the Chevrolet Vega,they used a aluminum head on a cast iron block and many blamed the use of ethanol in the gasoline,which is highly corrosive,as the reason for the massive failures in the head gaskets.

That 70% of corn production is dominated by corporate farms.

The irony in all of that is,you cannot use ethanol based fossil fuels in the production of fertilizer,which drives the cost of corn production,so while you are cutting back on the use of fossil fuel in vehicles,you are increasing the cost of either at the pump or in food.

We will not even go into the environmental impact of the refining process in order to make the E85 in the first place,which makes it a zero sum game.

All of this saving the planet seems to be more about making it look good in order to appease,verses actually saving the planet.

[Dan Wesson]

Grain alcohol in fuel has a way of absorbing water. Which causes “phase separation” in your tank and tanks at the gas stations.

A good doc on King Corn…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWv29KRsQXU

[Dan Wesson]

That separation is real. I had a van that suddenly had no power to make it up a hill. After getting a running start I made up the hill and made it home. I siphoned some gas out of the tank and put in the freezer. The next day there were two distinct liquids that separated out, one was the color of gas, the other was a white opaque liquid. The opaque liquid was heavier than the gas and the ratio was 50/50. I took this bottle to the gas station owner, he looks at it then shakes it up. He did pay for the tank to be drained and for the amount of money I spent to fill up at his station the day before.
I’m guessing the underground tank was pretty low on fuel…

[MikeM]

Are you using E15 now? No, because you can't buy it here. So will you be using it this summer when the seasonal ban is lifted? No, because you can't buy it around here. So what's the big deal?

[Richard]

^

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

Sec. 277. [[1) For tax years beginning on and after January 1, 2023 through December 31, 2027, a taxpayer who is a retail dealer may claim a credit against the tax imposed by this part equal to the sum of the following:
[[a) $0.05 per gallon of E15 fuel that the retail dealer sells and dispenses through metered pumps at the retail dealer's motor fuel site during the tax year.
[[b) $0.085 per gallon of E85 fuel that the retail dealer sells and dispenses through metered pumps at the retail dealer's motor fuel site during the tax year.
[[2) For a taxpayer who is a member of a flow-through entity that qualifies for the credit under this section, that taxpayer may claim a credit against the member's tax liability under this part based on the member's distributive share of business income reported from that flow-through entity or an alternative method approved by the department.
[[3) If the credit allowed under this section for the tax year exceeds the tax liability of the taxpayer for the tax year, that portion of the credit that exceeds the tax liability shall be refunded.
[[4) As used in this section:
[[a) "E15 fuel" means gasoline blended with more than 10% of ethanol but not more than 15% of ethanol by volume.
[[b) "E85 fuel" means a high-level ethanol-gasoline blend containing more than 50% of ethanol but not more than 83% of ethanol by volume and that is suitable for use in flexible fuel vehicles.

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/[[S[[ckm1mwzamel224lciohdxzyc))/documents/2021-2022/billintroduced/Senate/htm/2022-SIB-0814.htm

You will be buying it because the ones selling it will get a tax credit for every gallon sold,so they have incentive to sell it.

[MikeM]

But you won't because A) most stations don't have the infrastructure to deliver it. Of course you don't know that since you live in Russia and have never visited Detroit, and B) you don't have to stick the E15 pump in your tank.

[Dan Wesson]

Fun facts

Btus per gallon

Ethanol 76,330 BTU / Gallon
Conventional gasoline 116,090 BTU / Gallon

76,330/116,090=0.6575

A 33% difference

Will or does the price reflect that?

Does miles per gallon reflect that....

[Rocket]

Fun facts

Btus per gallon

Ethanol 76,330 BTU / Gallon
Conventional gasoline 116,090 BTU / Gallon

76,330/116,090=0.6575

A 33% difference

Will or does the price reflect that?

Does miles per gallon reflect that....

Mileage does. A car's mpg keeps dropping with each added bit of ethanol. My daily driver's mileage drops 1 mpg with E10.

Same 1 mpg drop between Summer and Winter gas.

Summer E-0 to Winter E10 is a 2 mpg swing [in a 17 mpg SUV].

If you can't buy straight gas locally, you can remove the ethanol using a large jug, water and food dye.

You need to do this if you ever plan to store a car for months.

In the Fall, I drive the other car to 1/4 tank or less, add 5 gallons of 93 that I've removed the ethanol from, and add a splash of Stabil.

It's a lot of hassle. And all that just so we can increase our dependence on oil, hurt the environment, and make gas more expensive. It hardly seems worth it.

[Richard]

But you won't because A) most stations don't have the infrastructure to deliver it. Of course you don't know that since you live in Russia and have never visited Detroit, and B) you don't have to stick the E15 pump in your tank.

Most stations do not have the infrastructure to deliver E15 ?

You went out of your way to pathetically try and make me look bad,then you post a statement like that?

You apparently never visited reality.

2011 EPA provided a waiver to sell E15 for vehicles 2001 and up,if you actually read what I posted Michigan is passing the service rebate beginning 2023 so gas stations receive a tax credit for every gallon sold,they can sell that tax credit for cash to other businesses that need the credits.

If you are a gas station,what are you going to sell,gas that gives you cash back in your pocket over and above what the consumer is paying you or keep E10 for the small percentage of the population that actually still drives a 2001 model year or less?

The way you respond,my guess as a business,you would retain the E10 capabilities for the small amount of customers left that are still driving 20 plus year old cars.

The whole object of being in business is to make profit,nobody is going to throw free money away that you will be receiving for a product that you are selling anyways.

I know it may be a mental stretch for you to comprehend the only thing they need for infrastructure is to drain the current E10 tanks and fill them up with E15 and change the little stickers on the pumps.

But sense you live in Detroit maybe you can tell us how special it is to have the only gas stations in existence that nobody else in the entire world has.

I do not need live in Detroit to comprehend they have gas stations that currently pump gasoline No different then any other gas station in the world.

But sense I do not live in Detroit I will be waiting for you to explain to me that Detroit is the only city in the world with their own little special gas pumps.

That has to be the most lame brain statement in the world

You do not live in Detroit so you do not know.

Maybe you should get out some and visit other cities in the country,nothing in Detroit is no different then any other city,it’s not some city where it is a bubble within its self.

Hate to break it to you.

According to you I will not be able to visit Detroit anyways because sense you have your own little special gas pumps that nobody else in the world has,I would not be able to purchase fuel for my Florida car.

I would have to rent a special Detroit car that only uses special Detroit gas stations and not even be able to visit anything outside of the city unless I fill up in the city first and do not go outside of the range of the rental,because nobody else will have those special little gas pumps.

[Rocket]

Most stations do not have the infrastructure to deliver E15 ?

You went out of your way to pathetically try and make me look bad,then you post a statement like that?

You apparently never visited reality.

I was thinking,

Won't they just be replacing our E-10 with E-15, and then putting an E-15 sticker on the fuel-grade button?

I don't think we're gonna have a choice to use or not use E-15.

Perhaps not all stations will choose to. Or will they even have a choice?

[Richard]

I was thinking,

Won't they just be replacing our E-10 with E-15, and then putting an E-15 sticker on the fuel-grade button?

I don't think we're gonna have a choice to use or not use E-15.

Perhaps not all stations will choose to. Or will they even have a choice?

I think that was the whole reason they are offering the tax credits to the service stations,because the service stations will steer people to what they will make profit in which will be E15.

Next they will do the same thing with E85,they will stop selling premium and use that tank for the E85,E85 is for flex fuel cars,they already know they cannot meet the EV deadline so it will be EVs and flex fuel hybrid cars as a majority.

Remember when California had their cash for clunkers program way back when,they did that to remove the older vehicles from the road and incentivize people to buy new cars that met emission standards at that time.

I think it will be like it now as availability,some stations sell low,mid grade,premium and high test in that case it will most likely be mid grade,E15,E85.

Because they will not have to add more tanks or change pumps out,just do the switch over when the existing tanks runs dry.

For us WaWA is the only station that sells straight gas outside of a marina and not every one,but Florida has a massive boating base so it may be profitable to them whereas elsewhere maybe not.

Right now it is $4.85 per gallon which is the same as I pay for high test.

I think that is the long term goal in all of this,just make it so expensive to own a ICE vehicle that people will not have a choice but to switch.

The only outlier in all of that is E gas attacks rubber hoses,most hoses sold anymore are rated for E gas.

But are they rated at the 10% level and not at 15% ? I do not know that one.

But what caused the service station superfunds was a 90 degree hose that went at the bottom of the service station in ground tanks,what happened was they deteriorated and allowed the fuel to soak into the water tables.

It cost billions to clean all of that up,now here we are 30 years later and the elephant in the room is was those 90s replaced with E rated rubber because if they were not and the switch is made to E15 - E85 which will increase the risk,we may now be in the early stages of the next environmental disaster that will cost billions more and wipe out a majority of the existing gas stations like it did back in the 70s.

In the 70s I could still buy 105 octane to run in my 60s GTO,now you cannot find it outside of a random Sunoco who caters to the race crowd.

I think the rest will go the same way,they will just phase it out.

But they are still building new performance vehicles that require premium fuel in 2022,can’t imagine running a hellcat or new corvette on low grade fuel,unless they can.

The irony of E15 is while you save a few cents per gallon at the pump you will be making up for it in dollars at the grocery store because the cost of fertilizer has tripled in the process and the demand for corn will grow which increases the need for fertilizer.

Which is Round Up brand,so once again in order to drive costs down and save the planet we are going to triple the use of toxic products that will be dumped into the environment at a faster pace.

So we are right back to killing the planet at a faster rate,in order to save it.

It just makes no sense the way they are going about it,while wasting billions in taxpayer dollars and increased costs on those who can least afford it,even making those who currently can,less likely to be able to in the future.

Corn is used to make sucrose,which is used in just about every food product we consume so E15 is really a zero sum game,well,actually will drive up costs at the supermarket.

Here is a link that explains a lot,and says that existing gas station infrastructure is currently rated up to E100.

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/e15_infrastructure.pdf

But that is only stations that have switched their tanks out mid 80s and up and mostly not in aged urban centers because there are still thousands of operating gas stations that have not changed their tanks out because the superfund ran out of money.

When you see older gas stations that have a little square fenced in building in the back or on the side and has a vent sticking out of the top,that unit has a pipe sunk into the ground and is sucking the gasoline vapors out of the soil because their tanks are leaking fuel into the soil.

They are also monitoring the fuel flow through the water table,Detroit it will naturally flow to the river,that is how they determine if the leaking tanks are a hazard to the public and if the station needs to be immediately shut down,is by the flow of gasoline in the water table plume.

Us older folk will remember when there used to be a filter on the side of the gas pumps,that was to filter the sand out of the gas as it was sucked up through the leaking rubber 90s.

Thats why you never ever rent or buy an X service station without checking with the city and EPA and find out if and when the tanks were removed and if the soil is contaminated otherwise at any given second they can shut you down a force you to clean it up,that’s over $100,000 minimum if you own it and if you rent it,you need to move with no notice.

[Dan Wesson]

I buy recreational gas REC-90 for every gas burning tool I use.
I was unaware of the intentional separating of E-fuels.
REC-90 is ethanol free. 2oz of Stabil per 5 gallon jug every refill.

Mich gov website on the thing about ethanol and water
https://www.michigan.gov/mdard/lab/m...etail-guidance

[Richard]

Even worse up north with the seasons but I wonder how many millions consumers spend every year replacing equipment that sat up for the winter and did not start in the spring,so they just bought a new one.

Its a scam of sorts because of the use of tax credits.

So how they work is larger pollution generating corporations are fined every year according to how much pollution they emit over and above current EPA set guidelines.

They can either pay the fine,millions for some,or use tax credits purchased from other businesses to pay the fine.

In this case a gas station has a low pollution footprint,but with the tax credits received for every gallon sold there is no way they can use them all,so they can then sell them on the market.

So for every dollar collected as a tax credit you can sell it for a percentage on the dollar.

I think what they are doing here with the E15 and tax credits is using it simply as a tool in order to generate millions more credits for purchase for other higher pollution generating companies.

IE: A refinery generates more pollution then the regulations allow,so they have to pay a fine.

If you then use the individual gas station and give them tax credits that they will never be able to take advantage of ,they will pump millions in credits back into the refinery.

What it appears like they are doing is trying to up the output of the refineries,which in return will double the pollution levels over and above the limits,while offsetting the fines with the actual gas stations tax credits.

How it can backfire is the gas stations are not required to sell the credits to the refineries,they can sell them to the highest bidder.

If that happens the refineries will have to increase the cost of fuel delivered in order to correlate with the increased fines that will come with increased production demand.

So it is not really about E15,it’s about using E15 as a tool in order to generate tax credits on a massive scale,for other businesses that will not be able to comply with new EPA regulations.

[CassTechGrad]

The 1958 Ford Nucleon: An idea that’s still ahead of its time
The Ford Nucleon was envisioned to be powered by a miniaturized version of a nuclear reactor of the sort found in a submarine and would go as far as 10,000 miles between refueling. The original concept model is currently on display at the Henry Ford Museum.

[Rocket]

to be powered by a miniaturized version of a nuclear reactor of the sort found in a submarine and would go as far as 10,000 miles between refueling.

Of course everyone's first thought is, "What happens in a crash?"

Probably a lot safer to have the reactor in the garage, and use it to charge the car at night.

Of course that still leaves the problem of making batteries, which we still have no way to do on a large scale, and the minerals needed to produce them can't be mined fast enough, and probably don't exist in even a fraction of the quantity needed.

Gasoline is the way to go for the foreseeable future. Perhaps in 50 years someone will have developed a solution.

FOR SURE ethanol isn't it. It INCREASES petroleum use and instead of reducing it.

[JonWylie]

Of course that still leaves the problem of making batteries, which we still have no way to do on a large scale, and the minerals needed to produce them can't be mined fast enough, and probably don't exist in even a fraction of the quantity needed.

Based on what evidence? There's plenty of improvements happening every year that make batteries more efficient and easier to recycle

[Rocket]

Based on what evidence? There's plenty of improvements happening every year that make batteries more efficient and easier to recycle

Well, currently, less than 1% of cars and trucks on the road are electric. And only about 3% or less of new car sales are electrics, which means we need to multiply battery production by 33 times [50x or more if we're going to do heavy trucks too]. And we need to achieve that rate of production not just this year, but EVERY year, forever.

The industry simply has no clue how they might do that. For one thing, there is a very limited amount of certain minerals needed to make the batteries, like cobalt, manganese, lithium carbonate, lithium hydroxide, etc, etc.

The USA has less than 2% of the world's lithium production. Almost all of it is controlled by China.

I just read that Lithium prices have risen 438% in the last year, so elec car companies are about to institute some very noticeable price hikes.

The elec car industry, government, media etc keep saying how we need a new breakthrough technology to do this and that, but so far nothing has come close to lithium-ion for the needed mix of energy density, lifespan, charge/discharge rate, etc.

So yeah, perhaps electric is the future, but so far, no one has even the faintest clue how they're going to pull it off.

[Jimaz]

Mostly about the tragedy of lead, but at 7:32 ethanol's effect on knocking is mentioned:

The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History

One scientist caused two environmental disasters and the deaths of millions....

[Rocket]

Mostly about the tragedy of lead, but at 7:32 ethanol's effect on knocking is mentioned:

It does do that, but it also is less energy dense, meaning when you use it in a gas car, it effectively leans out the mixture, which promotes knock again.

Modern cars have both knock and oxygen sensors, so their ECU's can mostly account for this. The net effect is just a loss of fuel economy.

What does hugely improve octane is injecting methanol. It's 113 octane or better, and has a cooling effect.


The title to that vid reminds me of Rachel Carson, the lady who wrote the book Silent Spring, about how DDT was terrible.

Turns out her science was junk, and her conclusions false. DDT is now used again. But in the meantime, many millions of people died in Africa, South America etc of malaria, thanks to DDT being banned. That puts Rachel well above Hitler, and near Stalin and Mao on the all-time death count list.

[Dumpling]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/us-jo...xt-space-state

The UP would probably be as NIMBY about Disney
World as it is about a Space Port. Here's hoping
that the Florida state government values both its
theme parks and space ports. The weather there
is nice for both of those. The New Yorker references
Nancy Langston. Her books are book club fare in the
UP.


http://www.nancylangston.net/

Methanol as a fuel additive may improve octane
but tends to increase nitrogen oxide emissions.

DDT is something of a "forever chemical".
Its use, if at all, should be carefully balanced
against its projected environmental and health
effects for populations that have close contact
with the environments that it would be put into.
It says something that a researcher investigating
DDT in Africa mentions that there is an ongoing
shift to the use of neonicotinoids instead of DDT.
Those have their hazards as well - they are
implicated in the decline of pollinator populations.

https://www.un.org/africarenewal/mag...vironmentalist

[CassTechGrad]

"There's a sucker born every minute" P. T. Barnum

[Jimaz]

What ever happened to "Palcohol" anyway?

[Richard]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/us-jo...xt-space-state

The UP would probably be as NIMBY about Disney
World as it is about a Space Port. Here's hoping
that the Florida state government values both its
theme parks and space ports. The weather there
is nice for both of those. The New Yorker references
Nancy Langston. Her books are book club fare in the
UP.


http://www.nancylangston.net/

Methanol as a fuel additive may improve octane
but tends to increase nitrogen oxide emissions.

DDT is something of a "forever chemical".
Its use, if at all, should be carefully balanced
against its projected environmental and health
effects for populations that have close contact
with the environments that it would be put into.
It says something that a researcher investigating
DDT in Africa mentions that there is an ongoing
shift to the use of neonicotinoids instead of DDT.
Those have their hazards as well - they are
implicated in the decline of pollinator populations.

https://www.un.org/africarenewal/mag...vironmentalist

Most of those rockets they are sending up are carrying satellites that provide GPS that the EVs,aircraft needs,It actually may be good for the state in the diversity aspect,hundreds of millions flowing through the state cannot be that bad.

The rocket launches at the cape have little impact on anything else.

Screw Reedy Creek and Disney,it is the only private business in the United States that operates as an independent government within itself.

They brought in foreign IT workers at a cheaper rate,made the existing IT people train them,then they fired them.

When they first started buying property to build it,there was a community of about 60 homes,Disney had the bank call the note on all of those property owners and they were kicked out of their homes without compensation,the remains of those homes are still on the property.

They can do or build whatever they want in their property with zero permits or regulations,you or I try that and we would be in jail.

The only way they supported public transportation was if it only ran from the airport to their property with no stops in between and expected everybody else donate their land to them.

They use their workforce as a political tool in a way that makes the unions look like child’s play,while they exploit foreign summer workers that have zero recourse.

They are just another example of a corporation dictating to the public,but exempts themselves from what they pretend they stand for.

They run 1000s of vehicles,ever here them say they are switching to EVs? They will say they are but will not do it,they do not even have to comply with any pollution regulations.

They are like a separate country within the U.S..