What to do with Belle Isle?

[expatriate]

There is the Antelope pond and fountain in the Conservatory garden.

[Ray1936]

Then there is the concept of spacing after a comma. Forgive this English major.

[canuck]

Then there is the concept of spacing after a comma. Forgive this English major.

Yes.

Good of you to bring that up, but are you sure we can handle another justification for his idiosyncratic punctuation over 15 paragraphs of unrelated anecdotes?

Another Pandora’s box…

[mauser]

isnt that island a racetrack now ? have more races.

[casscorridor]

Allowing private businesses to operate concessions, be they small kiosks or full service restaurants, makes sense purely from the standpoint of enhancing the park's experience and attracting more visitors. I honestly don't understand why this isn't a normal thing at state/city/county/metro parks in general.

Another area that could be enhanced is sporting. There are some leagues that play here, but I could see it be much more of a focus. Bring in commercial partners such to help cover the maintenance costs of new basketball, soccer, baseball fields, a skatepark, etc.

Another idea - horses! Yes, horses could be a hugely popular attraction, either individual riding or carriage riding. It was an idea mooted before the state took over and the island did once have stables as noted in this thread: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...riding-stables

Maybe these sort of things aren't the DNR's wheelhouse, which I can understand. But they should have stronger partnership with the Conservatory, allowing them to experiment with some more creative uses of what is ultimately still a severely under-utilised park relative to its potential.

[Richard]

Everything currently there was implemented by the city while it was under city control,because they had the power to do that.

The DNR or park service is regulated by the state legislature,they cannot just make up new rules as they go along.

So it would take state legislature action in order to give them the power to enter into public/private relationships.

It has been done in other states,it has also been done in federal owned land.

For instance if a historical house or facility is located on federal land,you can enter into a agreement where they will give you the rights to the house,you have to cover the costs for rehabilitation but you can live there until you die.

The clevat being,because the federal parks are considered public space,you have to allow the public into the house for X amount of time per year.

That’s the legal mountain Belle isle has to climb,as a state park it is considered public space,if you privatized it,it no longer becomes public space excessable to all without limitations.

For instance,put a restaurant there,the park service would be responsible and liable for the building and parking lot,which is paid for by the taxpayers.

The sticky part comes in when the argument is made,why should the taxpayers pay to build and maintain facilities that are run by for profit entities,on public space.

It’s not to say that it cannot be done,my argument is,do it right because if not,all it takes is a legislature with a chip on their shoulder and it all goes away and nobody is protected.

Its not the same relationship as it was with the city,it is now with the state and that includes every taxpayer in the state and subject to the states whims,legalities and budget constraints.

As it stands at any given time the state can pull any deal or agreement that in not set out legally,off of the table.

Kudos to the conservatory for all the work they have done while it was under city control,but unless they have something that guarantees their existence under the state ownership,the state can shut them down at any given moment.

[Gistok]

What are the roles and responsibilities of the DNR, the BIC, and the City?

The City of Detroit owns the park and has leased it to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. The MDNR is responsible for the day-to-day responsibilities, while the Belle Isle Conservancy focuses on awareness, historical preservation, and fundraising for capital projects.


Yes canuck... another Pandora's Box...

[Richard]

What are the roles and responsibilities of the DNR, the BIC, and the City?

The City of Detroit owns the park and has leased it to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. The MDNR is responsible for the day-to-day responsibilities, while the Belle Isle Conservancy focuses on awareness, historical preservation, and fundraising for capital projects.


Yes canuck... another Pandora's Box...

DNR Responsibilities
Ownership
City of Detroit

Management
Department of Natural Resources, Parks and Recreation Division

In Collaboration with: MDOT
Roads and Bridges

DNR - Law Enforcement Division, & Michigan State Police
Public Safety

Great Lakes Water and Sewer
Public Water/Sewer Utilities

https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Pro...b7b822d6def935

Funny how DNR does not list the conservancy as in collaboration with.

All private events taking place on Belle Isle are scheduled through the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

So basically the conservancy is operating at the will of the DNR in the capacity as a PR and fundraising firm.

Everybody knows that there are a lot of revenue generating options that could be implemented on the isle,ever wonder why in 8 years none of them have ever been implemented?

It’s pretty clear that you and canuk did not have a clue,if you did it would not be in the shape it is in.

What did you do under your watch,if you had spent 1/10 of the energy that you spent in 4 years trying to unseat a sitting president it would be the most beautiful island in the world by now,you wasted all of that time when you should have been concentrating on the task at hand and actually doing something productive.

It’s everybody else’s fault and they are wrong,ever think maybe it is your mind set is what is wrong,it’s not like you can ignore the devastation it has caused.

Now you choose to take a stand,where have you been the last 20 years,under a rock?

Why are you so quick to protect the status quo when it is clearly not working,are you blind,the taxpayers want to know what is going on,they have a right to know and somebody has a duty to tell them exactly how it is.

Sit down and shut up,we got this,is what put the city in the position it was in,and here you are pushing that narrative at any cost.

Its a citizens civic duty to be involved in what is happening in their city,you do not have the right to tell others or do everything in your power to circumvent that.

From 1200 miles away I can understand what that park means to the people of the city,they deserve a little bit more then what you are pushing.

It is supposed to be public knowledge,show the public the legal binding contract between the DNR and the conservancy that shows volunteers and donators that their time and money is not going to be wasted at the whim of the state.

Its not that complicated.

[southen]

I love a guy whose passion for a park he's never been to runs 400 paragraphs deep because he googled some things and has no hobbies.

There are private organizations operating at the park, those that are there for profit, those like the conservancy and others who work with the DNR to better the park for visitors. Are you rambling on and on because you say the DNR at any moment could turn on said organizations based on the wording of the agreements? That is what this whole thing is about?

[Richard]

I love a guy whose passion for a park he's never been to runs 400 paragraphs deep because he googled some things and has no hobbies.

There are private organizations operating at the park, those that are there for profit, those like the conservancy and others who work with the DNR to better the park for visitors. Are you rambling on and on because you say the DNR at any moment could turn on said organizations based on the wording of the agreements? That is what this whole thing is about?

You are here posting also,does that translate into you need to get a hobby?

This is why it is so screwed up,some are more worried about who has been there,paragraphs posted on the internet,spelling and other matters that have zero to do with local improvements.

It does not matter what was in place when the lease was signed,the lease clearly states that the state is under no obligation to honor any preexisting agreements.

I have posted my material facts to back my up my stance,nobody has shown me any legal facts that tie current relationships to a binding contract.

I have even posted the solution to that and the best people can come up with is,you have never been there,we have no problem asking for peoples time and money that, goes into the millions,based solely on,well that’s how we do it.

If you cannot provide the documentation that solidifies the agreement between the state and parties operating on the island,legally,you have no legal standing,me having been there or not is totally irrelevant.

You and others are acting no different then the state,just give me the money and piss off.

The posted lease is the law,what anybody else posts on the internet is irrelevant.

The cities wishlist wants to gift $50 million dollars to the isle,that money would be deposited into the DNR bank account and it would be under no obligation to actually put those funds into the isle,the city cannot force the DNR to specifically allot those funds to the island.

The only thing that will set Belle Isle apart from the other state parks and how it is run,legally,is by state legislature actions.

As it stands the DNR cannot enter into legally binding contracts with any of the existing enterprises currently operating on the island,that is why you guys cannot produce copies of them,after 8 years,until you can all you are doing is pissing in the wind,you are supposed to be looking for permanent solutions and not spending millions of dollars improving something that is subject to change on a whim.

All you have to do in order to prove me wrong is produce the documents that solidifies the island’s future.

Based on some of the replies,you cannot,that is why you have to resort to the tired reply’s that played a part in destroying the park in the first place.

[canuck]

Youguy are feeling tantrummy, again?

Folks on here are debating the need for rehabilitating and improving the island, notwithstanding the finer points of contracts as they stand. You then accuse [[you guys) of letting the island disintegrate on their watch.

Youguy’s relentless “one against the world” stance is what makes you a big hit.


My personal fave is the little bit about Trump youguy wove in one of your posts to somehow link this to [[you guys) failure to protect Belle Isle. Why not? Lol

[Richard]

Youguy are feeling tantrummy, again?

Folks on here are debating the need for rehabilitating and improving the island, notwithstanding the finer points of contracts as they stand. You then accuse [[you guys) of letting the island disintegrate on their watch.

Youguy’s relentless “one against the world” stance is what makes you a big hit.


My personal fave is the little bit about Trump youguy wove in one of your posts to somehow link this to [[you guys) failure to protect Belle Isle. Why not? Lol

It had zero to do with Trump and everything to do with when there is a window of opportunity open you take it,who is opening the window has little relevance,when you make it relevant,you are only hurting yourself and your community.

The people that live in the region are only here for a period of time,where as the city is there for decades,as each generation flows through the city,they have a duty to protect it and advance it for future generations.

It’s not one against the world,it’s a community fighting to protect what they have while moving the city forward in the proper way,in order to reduce the set backs that occur due to changing conditions.

It all plays into the same group,from protecting the island to saving historical buildings to implementing public transportation,if you do not have a solid foundation at the start,IE something that is legally protected so it is not subject to change as administrations change,it remains protected forever.

The difference between you and me is you look at the here and now and laser focused on a specific object,where a city is based on a bigger picture.

What is going on with the island is repeating the mistakes of the past,the key is to recognize them and prevent them from happening again,it is clear that there is opposition in doing that,for whatever motive,as there are clearly some that prefer the city and region to stay the same.

I do not need to live or visit the city or island to invest in it,I have a right to protect my investment,the city still owns the park and someday it will return to the city.

I do not care if you do not like me or my posts,the city guarantees my investment,actually the taxpayers do,if I see something that may pose a threat in the future to the city and my investment,I am going to say or do something,sense you are not backing my investment as they say Frankly my dear ,I do not give a damn what you think about me.

I invested in what was once the greatest cities in the country that impacted the world,I believe in it and I believe it can achieve that again,If I see something I will say something,it does not matter even if it is from 1200 miles away.

It has now been 8 years under state control,the only major announcement that I have seen is the moving of the race to downtown,from the comments I have seen here and other places,not much groundbreaking improvements have been made,and you do not need to mow the grass when it is covered in snow.

So the next question would be what does it take to move it forward in a more rapid and productive manner,to me it takes going back to the beginning and seeing what roadblocks are in place that need to be addressed and what are the limitations.

Intil you do that you are not doing anything different in the last 8 years as you are going to be doing in the next 8 years.

Plus you have to look at the states point of view,are they really going to put millions into a park that they have to return to the city,that is millions in capital investment or are they going to just do what it takes ground maintenance wise in order to keep it clean.

It needs capital investment in order to maximize,that takes private agreements that the state may not be in the position to implement.

So the way I am looking at it,8 years later is it time to revisit the original lease terms in order to tweak it,the city has the power to make decisions in regards to the operation and allowing private enterprise to run functions on the island that the state does not.

I do not know if they could revamp it where the state retains it as a state park but sub-leases back to the city the rights to running the structure aspect,who could then sub lease parts out to private enterprises.

Every year that goes by there are structures continuing to deteriorate and soon they will be at the point of no return and the state is not obligated to repair or replace them,it will be subject to the state’s budget as to if they will continue to exist or not.

[Gistok]

Richard... unless you have actually been to Belle Isle over the years "to walk the walk"... [most of us locals have been there over 100 times over the years]... then your "talk the talk" about any problems with the lease to the state are just that.... talk.

Maybe if you visited between 2014 when the state took over... until now... you would have seen the improvements to the park. The park has had over $300 million in deferred maintenance... and it is being taken care of piece by piece. The island has been neglected for 1/2 century, so 8 year since the state took over has not been enough to fix everything.

With the Grand Prix leaving the island to go back downtown, removing the remains [such as the vast paved paddock area] has yet to begin... but will vastly improve the beauty of the island.

Here is an article about recent improvements... hey Southen, I see they are using your photos... cool!

https://detourdetroiter.com/big-chan...favorite-park/

With the Ralph Wilson Foundation [he was the late owner of the Buffalo Bills football team] mandated to spend $600 million in Detroit improvements over the next 20 years, I can picture that organization to contribute to add to the improvements of Belle Isle, just as the foundation has spent over $50 million in city park improvements/expansions in the last 6 years [especially the $40+ million to create the new riverfront Ralph Wilson Centennial Park].

With the exception of the ill fated opening of the lagoon systems to the river [causing flooding and deforestation in the islands eastern woodlands], much of the park infrastructure has not looked this good in over 50 year.

The one major area that has yet to be addressed is what to do with the former Belle Isle Zoo... either tear it down, or reuse it in some capacity.

[Richard]

Nice of you to throw in the ad hominem,not surprised

What protections are put in place that protects all of that improvement so it does not revert back to its current state in the future.

You can talk all you want but you cannot dismiss what happens in the future,recession's,change of administrations,funding priorities at the state level,state budget cuts the list goes on.

You are also completely ignoring what the people are looking for in the park,they are paying for it,and their suggestions are exactly what it needs as a buffer against all of the above.

If they create the ability to lease aspects of it legally,they would do it triple net,who ever leases a building would be responsible for the fixing and maintenance instead of the time and money aspect being placed on the taxpayers.

They can put things online that generate traffic and revenue in order to decrease the burden there and when it all comes together in the future it is mostly self supporting.

The goal being in not repeating the mistakes of the past,not sure why you are so opposed to that.

But then again you view a legally binding document as irrelevant,so if you do not even understand the basics I guess I cannot expect you to understand anything more complex then a sippy cup.

If you own a house,do you have a contract with the bank or did you just tell them,do not bother ?

[Gistok]

^ Richard, I have said many things about you in the past [as have many others], but I have never gone Ad Hominem on you... I know all the logic fallacies, and Lowell does not permit name calling on this forum. There are dozens of people who are no longer on this forum because of that, but I've been here over 23 years, so I know what Ad Hominem is and isn't [your use of the "sippy cup" insult towards me does go in that direction, but I look at who said it].

It's just when you post here, and pretend to be so knowledgeable on every subject, that you become annoying... especially since you've never set foot on Belle Isle. You look at a legal document... and most of us here look at the results by visiting the island often, and seeing for ourselves. It's really that simple. So stop obsessing over the document [oh how I wish our lawyer friend 3WC was still here, he'd probably give you an earful on city/state government legalese].

It took over 70 years of neglect to get the island to how it was around the time of the bankrupcy... and it's not going to be fixed in 10 years.

So I'm not wasting anymore time on your inane comments [and weak analogies] about how a legal document is causing Belle Isle to be neglected. It's not.

[southen]

This whole thread is just another exercise in Richard's paranoia and complete distrust of any governmental organization.

I say hobby Richard because you spend hours talking about a park you have never been to in a city you have never visited. I spent hours in the park volunteering and spending time in nature last week. You won't find me on message boards for places I have never been to arguing with locals to invalidate their first hand experiences with the place.

[Zacha341]

^ Yep. Well stated. Time is very valuable - priorities must be maintained.

I took a ride about the island recently. Great. Making a concerted effort to go more often. My parents took me to the park often as a child. We did the same with ours. Different areas of the isle provide different experiences.

One of my favorite spots is that narrow east walkway towards the old light house that looks straight on lake St. Clair. There are a few benches there with a straight-on awesome view of the few remaining freighters come thru.

[Richard]

^ Richard, I have said many things about you in the past [as have many others], but I have never gone Ad Hominem on you... I know all the logic fallacies, and Lowell does not permit name calling on this forum. There are dozens of people who are no longer on this forum because of that, but I've been here over 23 years, so I know what Ad Hominem is and isn't [your use of the "sippy cup" insult towards me does go in that direction, but I look at who said it].

It's just when you post here, and pretend to be so knowledgeable on every subject, that you become annoying... especially since you've never set foot on Belle Isle. You look at a legal document... and most of us here look at the results by visiting the island often, and seeing for ourselves. It's really that simple. So stop obsessing over the document [oh how I wish our lawyer friend 3WC was still here, he'd probably give you an earful on city/state government legalese].

It took over 70 years of neglect to get the island to how it was around the time of the bankrupcy... and it's not going to be fixed in 10 years.

So I'm not wasting anymore time on your inane comments [and weak analogies] about how a legal document is causing Belle Isle to be neglected. It's not.

You cannot even comprehend the difference between neglected and protected,and as par to the course you spin everything around to fit your narrative with ad hominem in order to bolster your counter point.

I already posted it was not going to be fixed in 10 years,but yet you twist it around like I said something different,there is a difference between reading something and comprehension.

Just because you said the lease is not with limitations it does not mean it has no limitations,I provided the facts,you have done nothing to counter that outside of throwing barbs and writing words that have zero to do with my point.

Just because you have limitations in life when it comes to matters outside of your little bubble you automatically assume everybody else does.

I can see what happened under your watch and yet you still hold fast to everybody else does not have a clue.

Everytime anybody brings up any suggestions that would make the city a better place to live,you are right there telling everybody how it will not work,then you defend that stance to the point where the person making the suggestion is screwed up for even thinking of it in the first place.

Until people like you that retain that mentality step aside and allow things to progress you will not be able to have nice things,because people like that will be right there telling everybody else how they cannot do something verses how they can.

Clearly you are not aware that there are people that drive every street of the city and the park while video documenting it,you do not need to physically be somewhere to actually see it,all you are doing showcasing your limitations.

Lots of people can do something for 23 years,it’s called doing something without actually doing anything.

[ABetterDetroit]

The whole thing is pathetic and some kind of sick addiction for him to spend the last years of his life with so many hours spent daily on a message board pretending to be an expert on a city and region that he has never set foot in. It is a shame that there is no one around him who cares enough to give him the help he needs to enjoy something remotely constructive.

Back to the island.

I find the state has failed on some of the most obvious basic affordable improvements. Surface drainage in the picnic areas is not functioning. Watching families with children navigate around mud and stagnant rain water for so long has been frustrating. Surface drain tile installation is highly mechanized and the tile cost is cheap even by today’s construction materials standards. A budget for the improvement based on what can be afforded annually and then starting in the worst places in the picnic areas and continuing to chip away at the problem yearly could have made a significant difference over the last decade.

[Richard]

The whole thing is pathetic and some kind of sick addiction for him to spend the last years of his life with so many hours spent daily on a message board pretending to be an expert on a city and region that he has never set foot in. It is a shame that there is no one around him who cares enough to give him the help he needs to enjoy something remotely constructive.

Back to the island.

I find the state has failed on some of the most obvious basic affordable improvements. Surface drainage in the picnic areas is not functioning. Watching families with children navigate around mud and stagnant rain water for so long has been frustrating. Surface drain tile installation is highly mechanized and the tile cost is cheap even by today’s construction materials standards. A budget for the improvement based on what can be afforded annually and then starting in the worst places in the picnic areas and continuing to chip away at the problem yearly could have made a significant difference over the last decade.

You posted points that I have brought up after making a childish comment about me when I posted it.

WTF

You guys seem to get off on creating discourse in a thread when I posted a simple question.

It is totally irrelevant what has been done or what is going to be done,the only thing that is relevant in my discussion is how is what is being done now and in the future going to be protected legally so it does not revert back to the state it is currently in.

All you guys have done is par to the course,not answered the question and went off in tangents that had zero to do with the question and then flipped it around as if I am the bad one.

Then the best you can come up with is the lane ass excuse that,you do not live here.

And the winner of the century,a legally binding document is not a legally binding document,then defend that stance repeatedly.

Make sure you inform all of the non profits in the city and Belle isle to never except outside support, because sense they do not live there they have no business in any city business,let me know how that works out.

[Zacha341]

Nice. I've never gone to this pond at the Isle. Looks nice from photos I found. Will check out soon!

https://www.google.com/search?source...&bih=610&dpr=1

There is the Antelope pond and fountain in the Conservatory garden.

[jcole]

One thing we all seem to be forgetting is a 2 going on 3 yr pandemic when most people haven't actually been working on the Island or much of anything else. Maybe some actual work will get started soon.

[Genesyxx]

One thing we all seem to be forgetting is a 2 going on 3 yr pandemic when most people haven't actually been working on the Island or much of anything else. Maybe some actual work will get started soon.

I don't think we forgot about the pandemic, its more about the years before it. I understand there has been some cleanup efforts, but its so much empty space its close to laughable.

The bandshell has been barely utilized [[I think they were showing kids movies there one year), some of the announced projects are still pending like the racquetball courts mentioned before. I don't even know why the water slide and pool were closed. I'd be happy with a simple bike rental stand being put up for people to cruise around, even if they start closing off vehicle access through the forest. To even put up a couple of frisbee golf nets where the mini-golf course was before seems like minimal effort wasted.

[masterblaster]

There is the Antelope pond and fountain in the Conservatory garden.

I really wish they would bring back:

The old Lily Pond [[much, much larger than the tiny one smushed against a corner of the conservatory building) -

-Return Central Avenue to the tree-lined, pedestrian-only road that it originally was:

-Another poster said bring back the horses. I concur. My heart sunk when I heard the old stables are going to be rebuilt at Greenfield Village, as if Belle Isle doesn't exist anymore? The State DNR actually has experience with horse stables and horse riding at nearby Maybury State Park.

-The 9-hole golf course: make it into a permanent disc golf course

-Some kind of animals: the zoo existed across 3 CENTURIES from 1895-2001. Let's bring some element of that back, even if it is only the white-tailed deer pen and feeding them.

[Jimaz]

Please Ignore This Giant Bronze Statue
{and other stories from Detroit’s Belle Isle}

"Please take this money to build a beautiful public landmark. And also a giant statue. Of me," said the local Detroit nuisance.

The stories behind two of Belle Isle's most notable landmarks: a marble fountain funded by a scoundrel, and a marble lighthouse built in honor of a Great Lakes shipping pioneer.