Ford in a Model T Moment? Jim Farley Rings the Alarm Bells about Tesla

[Jimaz]

...Then press it, sit there and wait 30-45 minutes, then plug in....

Ah, thanks. That explains it.

So if the charger were to initiate the preconditioning automatically at the beginning of the charge, that car would be blocking others' access to the charger for 30-45 minutes.

A manual button makes sense.

[Rocket]

So if the charger were to initiate the preconditioning automatically at the beginning of the charge, that car would be blocking others' access to the charger for 30-45 minutes.

Right. The car sits there for 20 min before taking any charge at all, and then another 20+ min before it charges at a fast rate. So a charge like that might be 1.5 hours to 80%.

And if the car is dead, it can't even be pushed to the charger. It must be towed.

[Richard]

Right. The car sits there for 20 min before taking any charge at all, and then another 20+ min before it charges at a fast rate. So a charge like that might be 1.5 hours to 80%.

And if the car is dead, it can't even be pushed to the charger. It must be towed.

There are videos of Teslas blocking parking garages because when the battery gets low it locks the brakes up,so they cannot be pushed out of the way.

You have to admit there is some irony in there,spend hundreds of billions on building an automobile with the sole intent of removing human intervention in its operation ,without factoring in a human still has to plug the thing in or you end up with a brick

People have always driven their vehicles until the gas needle is at empty or even run out of gas,that’s why AAA includes bringing you a few gallons of gas out in the membership.

Maybe that’s what they will have to do for EVs ,instead of bring you out a gallon of gas,they send a vehicle out with a gasoline powered super charger to get you going again..

Or maybe a PSA campaign- Instead of its 10pm do you know where your children are on the news it can be - It’s 10 pm have you plugged your EV in?

[Gistok]

The biggest mystery to me is that with all this bad news about stranded EVs and the fact that Hertz Rental is selling off 20K of its' EV vehicles [[80% are Tesla)... and all of the other bad news about EVs... is how Tesla stock has managed to weather the storm so well??

[canuck]

The biggest mystery to me is that with all this bad news about stranded EVs and the fact that Hertz Rental is selling off 20K of its' EV vehicles [[80% are Tesla)... and all of the other bad news about EVs... is how Tesla stock has managed to weather the storm so well??

Right, well the legislated elimination of new ICE car sales in the long term shines a bright lite on Teslers.

[canuck]

Right. The car sits there for 20 min before taking any charge at all, and then another 20+ min before it charges at a fast rate. So a charge like that might be 1.5 hours to 80%.

And if the car is dead, it can't even be pushed to the charger. It must be towed.

…and if the damn thing burns in your garage or driveway, it’ll burn a hole all the way to China… before they can put it out…

[Jimaz]

Today I heard that preconditioning can also cool the battery for better charging when in hot environments: {4:10 here}.

Hmm. This gets complicated.

[softailrider]

Using that button drains a lot of energy from the same battery you're wanting to charge, so you don't want to press it until you're near a charger that you've verified is working and available.

Then press it, sit there and wait 30-45 minutes, then plug in.

The problem that people are having is they wait until they're at 20% charge before going to a charger. But if they have to wait 1-3 hours in line to get to a charger, they'll have used up all the battery staying warm. Then the battery pre-conditioner won't work.

Now they need to call a tow truck and have the car flat-bedded to the dealer. Then take an Uber home and figure out how to get to work in the morning.


In cold weather you want to find a working charger when you get down to 50% charge, which means in reality charging nearly every single day.

30% to 80% gives a range of 20-50 miles in cold weather, depending on model.

So drive for 30 min to an hour, then wait in line / charge for an hour.

That sounds like a mighty fun time - count me out.

[Richard]

Right, well the legislated elimination of new ICE car sales in the long term shines a bright lite on Teslers.

It makes it easy when you are a government backed and supported company,not so much for the other manufacturers in a capitalist country.

But it is no different then with silicone valley,without the space program funding,all of those star billionaire techies would never have existed had not the government had an objective to achieve.

Our governments motto is,Throw enough cash at something and eventually you will achieve the results you desire.

It does not have to make economic sense,because that is never the intent.

[canuck]

It makes it easy when you are a government backed and supported company,not so much for the other manufacturers in a capitalist country.




But it is no different then with silicone valley,without the space program funding,all of those star billionaire techies would never have existed had not the government had an objective to achieve.

Our governments motto is,Throw enough cash at something and eventually you will achieve the results you desire.

It does not have to make economic sense,because that is never the intent.

Yes, same with Big Pharma.

Most of the profitable molecules come out of university labs, and heavily subsidized so taxes have paid for research and the patents are given to companies to exploit.

Not much different from the way Chinese operate.

[canuck]

I don’t want no electric car.

[canuck]

…or typewriter.

[EASTSIDER BALDUCK]

use a spell checker and read before

[ABetterDetroit]

Yes, same with Big Pharma.

Most of the profitable molecules come out of university labs, and heavily subsidized so taxes have paid for research and the patents are given to companies to exploit.

Not much different from the way Chinese operate.

Yep. But the really interesting part is when 30 Billion go to subsidize farming every single year the same folks who’s panties get in a bunch when new tech is subsidized will pay those farm subsidies no mind whatsoever. Wonder why?

It Cost Uncle Sam more to bail out soybean farmers in Trumps tariff wars than it did to bail out General Motors. And everyone knows GM paid the government back. The 40 Billion for soybean farmers just went in the pockets of the donors /farming corporations never to be seen again.

[Richard]

^ yes because subsidized food for 350 billion citizens is less important then subsidized tech.

Maybe if all of those people can master the art of slow cooking their tech so it is tender enough to serve up for Sunday dinner it would be different.

Could have some Apple IPhone a lá mode for desert.

The government does subsidize tech,it invested billions in solar,Tesla and Musks space program,$53 billion in chip production,$12 billion in EV manufacturing,$174 billion towards the EV market including infrastructure ,$2.8 billion towards battery production alone,and it goes on that is only on the federal level and does not even touch the individual state billions in subsidies so those factories will locate there.

Thats $240 billion in 2 years alone never to be seen again in order to replace a mode of transportation,that most already have.

Read the “bailout” agreement,in order to except the funds U.S. auto manufacturers had to agree to transition into E.V s by 2030,before it was even popular.

Committing over $1 trillion dollars over 5 years in grants and subsidies towards tech is a fair comparison to food ?

Strange how that works,silly people thinking eating is more important then tooling about in an EV,one needs to have priorities in life.

Who needs farmers anyways,they can always go build solar panels,everybody knows that food comes from the grocery store.

Do a test,go buy an EV,then do not eat for 1 week and see which one you prioritize.

If China takes Taiwan,everything tech related comes to a halt,think about how much of your life revolves around tech.

But look at the bright side,the bad guys tariff’s were lifted when the administration changed,how’s your shopping experience been lately?

How many more in this country dropped into food poverty when the price of groceries shot through the roof ?

Animal’s have to eat,70% of the soybean production in this country goes to feeding the animals that create the food that you eat,it’s basic math,if it cost more to produce food the cost is passed down to the consumer as we have experienced in the past 3 years.

$1.5 billion in the state of Michigan comes back to your economy from soybean farmers alone. Silly man,leveling the playing field for the people that hate him,but the one you love sucked $1.5 billion out of your local economy and threw you under the bus.

I guess that what they call tough love.

I would think that the American consumer paying what amounts to less then .50c a year per person to subsidize farmers in order save $200 per month at the very least at the grocery store is a pretty good trade off.

[Zacha341]

If? I think it's a matter of WHEN.

China sees America at its leadership level as feckless, distracted and very weak; our nation overall prioritizing that which obviously is not in our own best interests; decadent and divided.

Any day China could make a move. Admin/ culture-wise they view the world from the lens of centuries. Not a Tik Tok, the Emmy's, NYT headline or press secretary talking points of reassurance. If we could but 'view' ourselves as others/ nations do.

It goes without saying Detroiter's, especially low income individuals and households will be impacted!

...If China takes Taiwan,everything tech related comes to a halt,think about how much of your life revolves around tech.

But look at the bright side, the bad guys tariff’s were lifted when the administration changed, how’s your shopping experience been lately?

How many more in this country dropped into food poverty when the price of groceries shot through the roof?

[Gistok]

^Zach341... the Chinese have their own problems... severe corruption. They have to get all of the water out of their ICBMs before they can fight anyone else. Hilarious that the lower level military sold off that fuel for cooking uses... and replaced their missiles with "water" fuel...

[Zacha341]

^ Indeed. They have their own problems. Problems that must be solved: one way or another [including the final resolution of our fiscal debt owed to them].

The 'another' and the obvious is what we need to be watching.

As they watch our folly [on-going]. Bet.

[Rocket]

^ Indeed. They have their own problems. Problems that must be solved: one way or another [including the final resolution of our fiscal debt owed to them].

The 'another' and the obvious is what we need to be watching.

As they watch our folly [on-going]. Bet.

China is in free-fall collapse atm.

Only 10% of graduates can find jobs. Factories closing by the dozen. Home prices falling more than 40%. In some cities 70%. Workers are fleeing the cities and moving back to the rural areas with their parents.

We are blessed by comparison. China started a trade war, and fortunately we had someone with common sense in office recently, and he responded.

A couple industries got targeted in their response to our response to their trade war, and the former president gave those industries subsidies to dull the pain.

And the tariffs the govt charged China probably offset the ones we gave out to the affected industries.

We won. It cost us little, and China is in free-fall.

It's like winning a medium sized war without a single shot being fired.

[Richard]

They have 700 million military aged men and women with compulsory military service. Ours is 53 million.

When it comes to EVs ,they already dominate the EV market in the rest of the world and have the built in production capacity to triple that,our 25% tariffs on imported EVs and parts is nothing.

With all of the states including Michigan,that are coddling them with battery factories in this country,if they dominate the battery in this country they can dictate to the American manufacturers the price and make their import EVs the cheaper alternative.

When we gave up our dirty manufacturing and industrial cards and decided to be a country of consumers instead of builders,they already won.

It took a world war in order to get us out of a depression,China may feel the same way.

Taiwan manufacturers 70% of the worlds chip production,look at what happened when U.S. auto manufacturers could not get 1 chip for their vehicles,everything we have is run on chips,they do not need to go to war with us ,no chips and we are knocked back to the 1950s.

Which probably would not be a bad thing and Morse code and the telegraph replacing texts would remove a lot of stress from society.

The bright side of that is all of those singer foot powered sewing machines that have been collecting dust for decades,will become very valuable.

Us boomers would be okay,but the ones walking around with their heads buried in technology would be lost,with no app for that.

They do not even have paper maps,take out the GPS system and 1/2 the country would be running around in circles lost.

In a glass 1/2 full situation,us getting knocked back to the 50s would force auto manufacturers to build cool looking cars again,providing China allotted them enough steel.

[EASTSIDER BALDUCK]

Mandates are not for EV's. Mandates are for fuel economy, which in the last 15 years or so, is tied to CO2 emissions by california. Previously a harmless by-product of combustion of any carbon ladened fuel.

Therefore, car emissions = fuel economy.

State and now Fed mandates dictate low emissions of a harmless by-product?

cliff

[Richard]

I think that was the plan though,mandate everybody into a nice cosy little EV,that was until …..

Supreme Court restricts the EPA's authority to mandate carbon emissions reductions


https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/11035...climate-change

If you put so many restrictions on ICE until it gets to the point where it no longer becomes feasible to own one,then people have no choice.

Look at Paris,if you want to drive an ICE in the city it is a $25 congestion fee to enter per day,or any city over 100,000 ,it cost over $14,000 per year for the ability to own a car in the city.

So how many drivers in the city of Detroit would no longer be on the road if it cost them that much per year?

That’s how they get people to swap,they just make it so regulated for the manufacturers to produce and expensive to the consumer to own an ICE,you really end up not having a choice.

The part I do not understand is the with the Unions jumping on the bandwagon,when they know full well that EV production cuts the workforce by 1/2 ,so they are throwing their weight and support behind the very thing that will cause their own demise.

[Rocket]

Mandates are not for EV's. Mandates are for fuel economy, which in the last 15 years or so, is tied to CO2 emissions by california. Previously a harmless by-product of combustion of any carbon ladened fuel.

Therefore, car emissions = fuel economy.

State and now Fed mandates dictate low emissions of a harmless by-product?

cliff

Right, but ECV's [External Combustion Vehicles] leave the factory with double the carbon footprint s ICE vehicles, only becoming as clean as ICE vehicles at 140,000 - 180,000 miles.

It's a scam that's collapsing.

[canuck]

I love how our government favours EVs over ICEs in the public space. In Quebec, apart from generous incentives to purchase, the chargers are always closest to destination buildings like train station parking lots. Heck, the toll section of highway 30 around Montreal is toll free for EVs. That is a nice slap in the face to tax payers but so are a lot of other things I guess. Lol

[Richard]

^ They do that here also,some places have moved the handicapped spots further down in order to favor the charging spots.

Sometimes I feel like just parking there and telling them my ICE identities as an EV,in theory it does have 6 electric motors that powers the climate control system and the cooling fans.

It’s also class separation because I am poor and cannot afford to tool about in a fancy new contraption,I have to walk further as punishment.