Raining in Detroit - Expressways and Homes Flooded

[Honky Tonk]

if you squint, it's almost like the Canals of Venice...

Careful what you say. They'll label that a "quality of life benefit" and raise your taxes.

[jcole]

Careful what you say. They'll label that a "quality of life benefit" and raise your taxes.

[JBMcB]

It took them a lot of jumping thru hoops just to get them to allow a soccer field on that flood plain.

It's odd that they had to go through that much trouble. If the soccer field floods, you don't play soccer on it for a day or two. Grass *loves* water, the most you'd have to do is mow it a bit more often.

This might be a good idea. Scrape down larger parks with large fields a few inches below grade and funnel rain water into them. Grass doesn't mind being submerged for a few days, as long as it gets sun. Just make sure to build pavilions and bathrooms up a bit. Even a few inches, spread out over a few acres, is a LOT of water.

[Gistok]

It's odd that they had to go through that much trouble. If the soccer field floods, you don't play soccer on it for a day or two. Grass *loves* water, the most you'd have to do is mow it a bit more often.

This had more to do with leveling the ground for a soccer field when they first bought the property and getting all the necessary permits, as well as all the rules they had to go thru with altering "wetlands".

[MikeM]

"The Great Lakes Water Authority has promised an independent investigation into the flood, with a specific focus on the power outage last month that maimed the Freud pump station ahead of what's been described as a 1,000-year rain event."

Looks like water isn't the only thing flowing freely at GLWA. Next time something goes down in my area at work, I'm going to tell management it was the "1000 year glitch".

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. You would never design a system with a capacity that is only needed once every hundred years, or less. You can't drive a 500,000 lb truck across the Ambassador Bridge. Can a skyscraper withstand a 500 mph wind?

[Honky Tonk]

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. You would never design a system with a capacity that is only needed once every hundred years, or less. You can't drive a 500,000 lb truck across the Ambassador Bridge. Can a skyscraper withstand a 500 mph wind?

I guess if one buys into bullshit and posts unrealistic scenarios, it would be hard to grasp. The flooding is repeating on a regular basis. At first it was the "hundred year rain", now it's a "1000 year rain", next time it'll be a "5000 year rain". Part of the taxes collected is supposed to be to provide a liveable environment for it's inhabitants. The sewerage system doesn't get regular testing and inspections? There is no redundancy backup? Any idea how much money is being spent on the damage caused and insurance costs?About the only thing desk jockeys are capable of is doing "studies" for covering damage control.

[MikeM]

I guess if one buys into bullshit and posts unrealistic scenarios, it would be hard to grasp. The flooding is repeating on a regular basis. At first it was the "hundred year rain", now it's a "1000 year rain", next time it'll be a "5000 year rain". Part of the taxes collected is supposed to be to provide a liveable environment for it's inhabitants. The sewerage system doesn't get regular testing and inspections? There is no redundancy backup? Any idea how much money is being spent on the damage caused and insurance costs?About the only thing desk jockeys are capable of is doing "studies" for covering damage control.

Here's an unrealistic scenario: 8" of rain in 3 hours. Here's another unrealistic scenario: several centennial storms in one decade. I'm sure they should have had a crystal ball. Here's a not so unrealistic scenario: if they proposed a system that cost ten times as much to carry four times the flow ever experienced in recorded history, you would have been on the front steps of DWSD with a pitchfork demanding heads roll.

[GPCharles]

I'm just asking them to do their jobs. All of the GLWA pumps should be checked on a frequent basis, for both usability and power. I have talked to a former navy nuclear power guy and he said their ongoing training involved constant checking and rechecking their systems.
I was shocked to read that the Public Lighting Department was involved in supplying power to some of the pumping systems. Does PLD still have any generating capacity?

[jcole]

It's actually FEMA who sets those terms for the amount of flooding; ie 100 yr, 500 yr, etc. FEMA sets the rules for insurance purposes

[MikeM]

I'm just asking them to do their jobs. All of the GLWA pumps should be checked on a frequent basis, for both usability and power. I have talked to a former navy nuclear power guy and he said their ongoing training involved constant checking and rechecking their systems.
I was shocked to read that the Public Lighting Department was involved in supplying power to some of the pumping systems. Does PLD still have any generating capacity?

Their job is to run the infrastructure they have in place while planning for replacement or upgrading or expansion of the existing system. They probably can't hold off a battalion with just a platoon even if everything works perfectly.

The pumps are checked throughout the year. But you don't just flip a switch. It's a lengthy and complicated process, as to be expected with large equipment contained within a larger operating environment.

PLD no longer generates power. Shutting down Mistersky was easy once city transmission lines were transferred to DTE connections. The longer task is to transfer city powered infrastructure to local DTE subs, as well as running new distribution lines to service that infrastructure. And doing it while bankrupt.

[Honky Tonk]

Here's an unrealistic scenario: 8" of rain in 3 hours. Here's another unrealistic scenario: several centennial storms in one decade. I'm sure they should have had a crystal ball. Here's a not so unrealistic scenario: if they proposed a system that cost ten times as much to carry four times the flow ever experienced in recorded history, you would have been on the front steps of DWSD with a pitchfork demanding heads roll.

Hmmmmm, "several centennial storms in one decade." Are you sure they weren't "hand picked, organic, farm to table, storms"? "I'm sure they should have had a crystal ball..." Maybe a roll of duct tape to stop leaks from spritzing breaker boxes? Now that we're done chasing boogie men and making each other laugh, how about running monthly tests like they're supposed to do?

[MikeM]

Hmmmmm, "several centennial storms in one decade." Are you sure they weren't "hand picked, organic, farm to table, storms"? "I'm sure they should have had a crystal ball..." Maybe a roll of duct tape to stop leaks from spritzing breaker boxes? Now that we're done chasing boogie men and making each other laugh, how about running monthly tests like they're supposed to do?

Of course, more useless Monday morning rants that we're all accustomed to. Meanwhile, pumps run June XX, test okay. But you somehow miraculously believe they should run with no power a week later?

[Dumpling]

GPCharles' Post #119 is taken from Detroit News via Yahoo News
Service. We can go about casting blame here or there but it's
good to get a timeline of events then proceed with a root cause
analysis.

The following is information taken from that article. It is of course
subject to revision as more facts come to light. Certain facts
may not be available at this time as there now is pending litigation.
With those caveats in place:

The Freud Pump Station was not completely ready for the massive
rainfall at the end of June 2021.

There were two power substations supplying the pumps.
One was PLD equipment and personnel. The other was
DTE equipment and personnel. Backup generators would
be under the purview of the GLWA.

There was an intention to eventually phase out the PLD
substation and replace it with a DTE substation [there
is an extensive backstory on the mission of PLD which
I won't go into at all here; however PLD equipment tends
to be extremely antiquated at this time and the staffing
is now minimal].

The PLD equipment was possibly antiquated and therefore
not amenable to a switchgear that would seamlessly switch
the power source from one substation to the other or to
a generator for that matter.

[MikeM]

GPCharles' Post #119 is taken from Detroit News via Yahoo News
Service. We can go about casting blame here or there but it's
good to get a timeline of events then proceed with a root cause
analysis.

The following is information taken from that article. It is of course
subject to revision as more facts come to light. Certain facts
may not be available at this time as there now is pending litigation.
With those caveats in place:

The Freud Pump Station was not completely ready for the massive
rainfall at the end of June 2021.

There were two power substations supplying the pumps.
One was PLD equipment and personnel. The other was
DTE equipment and personnel. Backup generators would
be under the purview of the GLWA.

There was an intention to eventually phase out the PLD
substation and replace it with a DTE substation [there
is an extensive backstory on the mission of PLD which
I won't go into at all here; however PLD equipment tends
to be extremely antiquated at this time and the staffing
is now minimal].

The PLD equipment was possibly antiquated and therefore
not amenable to a switchgear that would seamlessly switch
the power source from one substation to the other or to
a generator for that matter.

Freud's three transformers were served by one line from Porter and two from Ludden, to spread the load and maybe for redundancy. I'd like to know if both Ludden lines were cut, or was the line supplying Ludden substation cut, or was one of the two supply lines retired at some point in the past [[maybe the reason for adding a backup generator?).

Nonetheless, the city would have flooded anyway, as evidenced by the other areas that flooded that rely in no way on Conner/Freud.

[Honky Tonk]

Of course, more useless Monday morning rants that we're all accustomed to. Meanwhile, pumps run June XX, test okay. But you somehow miraculously believe they should run with no power a week later?

It's about as useless as your defense of a continually failing pump system. "we're alll used to" Did I miss a meeting or did you stuff frogs down your pants? Let me point out today is Tuesday.

[Dumpling]

This is from behind a Detroit News paywall, but the Ludden
substation is owned and operated by DTE, and the Porter
substation is the ancient PLD relic that has the backup
generator.

The cable that was cut by a third party contractor, whose
identity has not been made public thus far to my knowledge,
ran from the Ludden substation to the Freud pump station.
It has not been made clear whether the contractor was
employed by DTE, GLWA, or had no connection with either.
Of course the contractor called Miss Dig beforehand?
But then, if it was a PLD cable, it had not been put into
Miss Dig's database ever, so the operator was clueless
to its existence? Just guessing why they might be trying
to put the flooding damages off onto PLD.

It is possible that the cable is a PLD relic also, but then,
a generator to back it up would have been good.

This cut cable meant that three of the six pumps at Freud
could not be powered on until it was fixed.

It's been a little difficult to sort out the math of what pumps
would and could work at Freud and Conner Creek. Best
as I can determine, there are six lift pumps at Freud and
six lift pumps at Conner Creek. During the 6/25/2021 rain,
only three of the six at Freud were working, and a more
reasonable five out of the six at Conner Creek were working.

I'm going to go through CEO McCormick's talking points
memo a little bit.

https://www.glwater.org/wp-content/u...NAL-210702.pdf

If all of the Freud pumps worked to their maximum capacity
as stated in the talking points, they could pump 1740 MGD.
[million gallons per day]

There are four sanitary pumps and six storm pumps at the
Conner Creek pumping station. So the total number of pumps
there is ten. The capacity of the four sanitary pumps is
71 + 71 + 48 + 38 = 228 MGD. The six stormwater pumps
at Conner Creek apparently have a range of lower horsepower
values than the pumps at Freud, but pump a higher average
MGD - 318 MGD per pump apparently, so the overall stormwater
pumping flow at Conner Creek is 1908 MGD which added
together with the sanitary pump volumes gives 2,136 MGD.

[SFDS]

This seems like a great topic for high value investigative reporting, whether the legacy media or new media alternatives.

[MikeM]

This is from behind a Detroit News paywall, but the Ludden
substation is owned and operated by DTE, and the Porter
substation is the ancient PLD relic that has the backup
generator.

The cable that was cut by a third party contractor, whose
identity has not been made public thus far to my knowledge,
ran from the Ludden substation to the Freud pump station.
It has not been made clear whether the contractor was
employed by DTE, GLWA, or had no connection with either.
Of course the contractor called Miss Dig beforehand?
But then, if it was a PLD cable, it had not been put into
Miss Dig's database ever, so the operator was clueless
to its existence? Just guessing why they might be trying
to put the flooding damages off onto PLD.

It is possible that the cable is a PLD relic also, but then,
a generator to back it up would have been good.

This cut cable meant that three of the six pumps at Freud
could not be powered on until it was fixed.

It's been a little difficult to sort out the math of what pumps
would and could work at Freud and Conner Creek. Best
as I can determine, there are six lift pumps at Freud and
six lift pumps at Conner Creek. During the 6/25/2021 rain,
only three of the six at Freud were working, and a more
reasonable five out of the six at Conner Creek were working.

I'm going to go through CEO McCormick's talking points
memo a little bit.

https://www.glwater.org/wp-content/u...NAL-210702.pdf

Actually, they both have 8 storm water pumps.

The original configuration of Freud was three transformers and four buses with two pumps per bus.

Transformer #1 was powered by Ludden and served bus #1, which supplied pumps 3 & 5.
Transformer #2 was powered by Porter and served bus #2, which supplied pumps 1 & 7.
Transformer #3 was powered by a second feed from Ludden and served buses #3 and #4, which supplied pumps 2,4,6,& 8.

No transformer could power more than four pumps [[two buses). If both lines from Ludden had been lost, Porter [[bus 2) could have supplied it's own two pumps and one pair of the lost Ludden bus pumps for a total of four pumps. If only one Ludden failed, the other Ludden bus or the Porter bus could have taken the load, and six pumps would be available.

If the station has been rewired in the past, that might explain why McCormick said that a single transformer can only power three pumps now. There are still three transformers according to her statement, but maybe now only three buses? Also note how she said two of the transformers are still fed by Ludden, corresponding to the original layout with two feeds from Ludden - one per transformer. She also said they got three pumps running which the Porter feed alone could do, implying to me that both Ludden feeds were lost.

In the big picture, despite the power loss, the wet well levels never rose above 70'.

Four backup generators were installed in 1999. I guess they are tied to the Porter bus.

[Baselinepunk]

"... desk jockeys ..." like it's totally not the 80s, man. gag me with a spoon . . .

[Dumpling]

BLP - - the last few posts are not adding up somehow...sorry?

[Pam]

Flood watch tonight.

WWA Summary for Flash Flood Watch Issued by DTX [[weather.gov)

Flash Flood Watch for a portion of southeast Michigan, including
the following areas, Lenawee, Livingston, Macomb, Monroe, Oakland,
Washtenaw and Wayne.

* From late tonight through Thursday morning.

[Honky Tonk]

Flood watch tonight.

WWA Summary for Flash Flood Watch Issued by DTX [[weather.gov)

Connor Station and DPL left early to avoid getting stuck in flooded areas.

[Meddle]

Federal Agency OKs $29M for Flood-Hit Detroit Residents

The Federal Emergency Management Agency has so far approved about $29 million in grants for Detroit residents whose homes and property were damaged by heavy flooding during a late June storm.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...roit-residents

[Henry Whalley]

Connor Station and DPL left early to avoid getting stuck in flooded areas.

????????????????

[Henry Whalley]

Have you noticed that flood levels have impacted property values and home prices throughout S.E. Michigan? Note to self: Don't buy house in a flood plain.