Detroit biggest holdup on regional transportation Crains

[crawford]

The #53 arrives every 8 minutes during rush hours. That's decent service, but I'd hardly call it "very frequent". Upgrading to a higher capacity mode that can operate at higher speeds and higher frequency is most certainly an addition of service. By an extension of your logic, Crawford, the #53 bus provides the same level of service as one of the Metro lines in the DC area.

What are you talking about? The Washington Metro is high-capacity heavy rail. The Charlotte Lynx is low-capacity, street-running light rail.

As for your "strange reason" why there isn't much development on Woodward despite decent bus service, let's do a thought experiment. Theoretically, DDOT could decide in the next 5 minutes that the #53 will no longer run. It would cost no money to make this change. There is a lack of permanence with bus transit that does not appeal to people who are looking to invest millions of dollars in a building project.

And theoretically Charlotte could shut down the Lynx tomorrow. How is this any different? You do know that rail lines have been abandoned in every city all over the world, right?

Don't you think that a better explanation for the growth in Charlotte and the decline in Detroit may have something to do with the relative strength of their economies, and not whether or not a choo-choo train replaces buses on the main street?

The following is a link to a December 5, 2008 article in the Virginian-Pilot of the Hampton Roads area of Virginia:

Great, some Hamptons Road exec wants federal pork $$ for Hamptons Road rail. Big surprise.

[ghettopalmetto]

No, this is simply false and you are just making baseless claims.

Charlotte is [[or was) a boomtown. There is new construction everywhere. Tons of new construction prior to any thoughts of light rail. Tons of new construction after construction.

There is no indication that light rail caused any of this construction. None! In fact, construction in recent months has ground to a halt.


20,000 passengers per day is pathetic ridership for a half-billion dollar investment. It's basically twice the ridership of the People Mover.

I would wager that the Woodward corridor far exceeds 20,000 weekday riders. D-dot has 200,000 weekday riders and certainly far more than 10% utilize Woodward on some point in their trips. Add in SMART, and I would wager you easily top 20,000 trips.

So you're arguing that $1.8 billion in development within walking distance of the Lynx light rail in Charlotte is mere coincidence? What are the overall development numbers for the rest of the region? All I know is Detroit would KILL to have that $1.8 billion in development along Woodward.

Light rail can move up to 15,000 persons per hour. That's equivalent to over six lanes of freeway. Is that low capacity? How many times have you sat in gridlock after a sporting event downtown, just to get back on the freeway? Maybe you enjoy it. Certainly others don't.

Charlotte could theoretically shut down Lynx tomorrow. But they won't. Because they have a financial investment in the rail infrastructure, stations, and power-generating facilities. And their transit ridership has grown 67% since the millage to support transit was passed in 1998. And developers know this. To remove bus service, all you have to do is not send the bus out onto the street.

Charlotte has decided that their economy does not function with people stuck in traffic, and driving an hour each way for a meeting. Hence, the decision to build and expand Lynx. Maybe they know something you don't. You're arguing for the status-quo, which frankly, is a piece of shit from an economic, employment, investment, and quality-of-life perspective. How do you justify this?

If 20,000 riders per day [[exceeding the 20-year projection, mind you) is so pitiful, then what should the numbers be? Now, if the #53 already has 20,000 riders per day, wouldn't it reason that a light rail line along Woodward would carry even more passengers?

And for what it's worth, Norfolk is moving ahead with their light rail line. Virginia Beach is considering extending the line into their city.

Why are you so hellbent on keeping Detroit in the 1950s? YOUR WAY DOESN'T WORK.

[iheartthed]

The DPM has 10,000 riders per day? Now THAT I don't believe...

[professorscott]

Many good comments on this thread, glad to participate.

The question was raised earlier, while the Prof was Proffing and therefore not on line, as to how much of the development around transit stations is new and how much is shifted. Of course, all development is going to happen in one place and not someplace else, so I think the essence of the question is: how much of that development would have taken place somewhere else in the metro area anyhow, and how much of it would not have taken place at all without the transit line?

The answer is that development is not development. The kinds of developments taking place near the Portland light rail stations is high-rise, high-density, low-parking urban-style development which simply could not be built in a suburban area. Something which a developer might build near a Woodward light rail line is not something he might otherwise have opted to build at 75 Mile Road and Schoenherr.

Also, with regard to the comment that Charlotte could shut the Lynx system down tomorrow, ostensibly as easily as DDOT could shut down the Woodward line: baloney. Charlotte has invested a great many millions of dollars in infrastructure to build the Lynx system [[and much of that money came from Uncle Sugar). While it is true that transit lines shut down, look at when and how that happens. When Detroit eliminated the streetcars in the postwar era, the infrastructure was all about half a century old and in disrepair, and the nation was in the middle of a massive shift from people traveling on streetcars and trains to people driving on all the new [[federally funded) expressways.

Nobody builds a multi-million dollar transit line and then just shuts it down, and developers know this and rely on it. But "permanent" is not correct, "long term" would be better. Gratiot was once the US highway, with much more traffic than it has today; one can argue that I-94 "replaced" Gratiot in some sense.

Whereas it is not the least bit hypothetical that DDOT or SMART [[or any other bus company) can shut down a line, quickly and at no cost. DDOT is going to do just that, stranding the few remaining passengers on the Grand Belt and Holbrook lines, in several days. This isn't new; DDOT in the last several years has shut down Woodrow Wilson, Lafayette-Green, Meyers, various downtown shuttles, etc., and I'm sure I'm leaving some out. SMART has also revised and shut down lines over the years. Nobody expects a bus line to last; it is quick and easy to change and remove them.

[Trainman]

"Doesn't matter if no one is taking transit and the built form doesn't respond to the investment."

Right.

"Since 1998, when Mecklenburg County voters approved a half-cent dedicated sales tax for transit improvements, private-sector investments valued at more than $400 million have occurred along the South End Historic District, including 33 restaurants, 1,245 new housing units and 700,000 square feet of office/retail space. These investments have generated returns to the taxpayers in the form of increased tax revenues. Since 2001, annual tax revenues have risen from $240,000 to over $6 million.

The same rings true for the portion of the South Corridor Light Rail Line that runs through Center City Charlotte. More than 3,000 housing units have been added to Uptown Charlotte since 1997, with several high-rise residential towers just announced that will add an additional 1,500 units.

Major trip generators currently being constructed in the Center City include the Charlotte Arena, Imaginon Children's Learning Center, and Johnson and Wales University."

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_cha_2008-08a.htm

"Since 2012, when Wayne County voters approved a half-cent dedicated sales tax for transit improvements with the state constitution change, private-sector investments valued at more than $400 million have occurred along the Woodward Avenue District, including 33 restaurants, 1,245 new housing units and 700,000 square feet of office/retail space. These investments have generated returns to the taxpayers in the form of increased tax revenues. Since 2015, annual tax revenues have risen from $240,000 to over $6 million.

The same rings true for the portion of the Detroit to Ann Arbor Light Rail Line that runs through Dearborn. More than 3,000 housing units have been added to West Dearborn since 2011, with several high-rise residential towers just announced that will add an additional 1,500 units.

Major trip generators currently being constructed in Detroit include Comerica Park, the RenCen, Detroit Institute of Arts, and Wayne State University."

[crawford]

LOL, sure, Trainman.

Thousands of high-rise condo units will be built because we replaced a bus line with a trolley line.

Now why didn't all these amazing things happen back when the People Mover was built? One would think that the People Mover would generate at least as much development as some trolley on Woodward. And Detroit was a lot healthier back in the 1980's than now.

Or what about the Jefferson Ave.-Washington Blvd. trolley? Why didn't that spur any development? It was so "successful" that the Book-Cadillac closed, Washington Blvd. became a ghost town, and the trolley line was eventually abandoned and ripped up?

I'm sure many younger forumers think I am talking about ancient history. I am talking about 10-15 years ago.

[Trainman]

LOL, sure, Trainman.

Thousands of high-rise condo units will be built because we replaced a bus line with a trolley line.

Now why didn't all these amazing things happen back when the People Mover was built? One would think that the People Mover would generate at least as much development as some trolley on Woodward. And Detroit was a lot healthier back in the 1980's than now.

Or what about the Jefferson Ave.-Washington Blvd. trolley? Why didn't that spur any development? It was so "successful" that the Book-Cadillac closed, Washington Blvd. became a ghost town, and the trolley line was eventually abandoned and ripped up?

I'm sure many younger forumers think I am talking about ancient history. I am talking about 10-15 years ago.

LOL, sure Crawford

I was mocking this post because the proposed NEW Countywide Sales Taxes and constitution change is very real indeed and the Transportation Riders United TRU and others are working to get this in place because of the failure of the SMART property tax and inability to protect existing federal and state funding from fuel taxes.

The TRUth is that if we had any mass transit leadership at all in Lansing that the November 2006 Livonia public bus reductions would have never occurred and in fact are illegitimate without alternative funding sources as I show on my website, see DETROIT LINKS, Trainman's.

In addition, if we had any mass transit leadership at all in any level of government in Michigan that there would be no possible bus service reductions next week in Detroit or the recent SMART service reductions in the western suburbs of Redford and Westland.

We just simply have no leadership at all. What we do have is much false propagandas and hype and scare tactics. Do you know that a NO vote next August 2010 will not shut down SMART or cause a loss of funding for the handicapped and the low income. Any funding cuts for community transit are illegal at all levels of government and can be challenged. The posted pictures of handicapped people to get your vote are anonymous and for a good reason, they are illegal and corrupt. Any moral government would never take away from the blind by asking for your vote. That is barbaric and should not be tolerated by the registered voters, the churches or our leaders,

The last passage of the SMART property tax gave the green light for 25 miles of NEW freeway lanes with $400 Million of funding from what used to pay for the buses in Livonia and the DDOT Greenfield bus line which now has mostly empty buses due to cuts in frequency of service. The Michigan Department of Transportation gets away with this because of powerful special interest groups.

In Michigan, the road lobbyists and transit tax supporters basically sleep in bed together to milk the public like a bunch of cows at this time. Both groups support County Sales Taxes for transportation that is coming much sooner then you think. In addition, the doubling of vehicle registration fees and increasing the fuel tax from 19 to 34 cents is also supported by both groups.

So Crawford, please take this post seriously if you want good jobs to return to Detroit, Livonia and Michigan because they won’t unless we get good compassionate mass transit leadership.

[ghettopalmetto]

LOL, sure, Trainman.

Thousands of high-rise condo units will be built because we replaced a bus line with a trolley line.

Now why didn't all these amazing things happen back when the People Mover was built? One would think that the People Mover would generate at least as much development as some trolley on Woodward. And Detroit was a lot healthier back in the 1980's than now.

Or what about the Jefferson Ave.-Washington Blvd. trolley? Why didn't that spur any development? It was so "successful" that the Book-Cadillac closed, Washington Blvd. became a ghost town, and the trolley line was eventually abandoned and ripped up?

Neither the People Mover nor the Washington Blvd trolley go [[went) anywhere, nor where they integrated into the larger transit system. If you have to drive all the way downtown to get on the People Mover, there really isn't any point to using it, is there? The DPM is nothing more than an overpriced, overglorified parking lot shuttle. Hence, the dismal ridership numbers that "system" has had since it opened.

[Trainman]

Neither the People Mover nor the Washington Blvd trolley go [[went) anywhere, nor where they integrated into the larger transit system. If you have to drive all the way downtown to get on the People Mover, there really isn't any point to using it, is there? The DPM is nothing more than an overpriced, overglorified parking lot shuttle. Hence, the dismal ridership numbers that "system" has had since it opened.

Sure, mass transit does promote growth but so do freeways. It's like this, you pay for the buses in Livonia by voting in mass transit leaders in Lansing. Then we can help pay for the freeway repairs in Oakland County and Detroit gets more people to graduate from high school so we can fill the buses and trolleys with educated workers and then help out the american car companies. Then we can fill up the trains with car parts and cars. Then, I can afford to pay the SMART property or sales tax.

Please support Bring Back SMART to Livonia and Southeast Michigan by getting your leaders to support my website under DETROIT LINKS