Detroit biggest holdup on regional transportation Crains

[Todd_Scott]

If it were a regional vote it would never pass. Most suburbanites don't have transportation problems.

I think that comment highlights the funding problem. Suburbanites either don't recognize the transportation problems this region has or simply accepts these problems as normal.

Here are some thoughts on our current transportaiton system --

* It requires significant energy which is located outside of the state and at a volatile price, causing Michigan's economy to bleed billions of dollars to other states and countries.
* We've allowed road agencies to expand the road network to the point where it is financially unsustainable. Have you read about the plans to raise fuel taxes and double registration fees?
* Transportation costs are the second highest budget item for Metro Detroit families and above the national average.
* Our transportation system is the leading cause of death for our youth. It's a major cause of death for adults.
* Michigan suffers from high obesity rates, which costs everyone in increased health care costs. Studies show our transportation options and built environment are a primary reason why, especially among kids. In many suburban communities kids can't walk or bike to school.
* The lack of transportation options is also a big issue for many of our area seniors.
* In terms of attracting businesses and jobs, Southeast Michigan is not competitive with other regions that have effective mass transit and other transportation options. It's no coincidence that Google's two Michigan offices are located in Ann Arbor and Birmingham, which have good density, walkabilty and bikeability. Unfortunately most of the region is unlike these two cities.

[lilpup]

Suburbanites don't give a shit about other people's transport problems. If anything, it's just another filter in an extraordinarily competitive job market.

All of these arguments are chicken/egg, but realistically no one's going to put out money for anything until there's an improved sense of prosperity and financial security.

[lilpup]

Let's start with some facts, which I claim are unarguable:
1. All successful urban areas, everywhere in the world, have effective mass transit.

Mass transit is not emphasized in any newer [[i.e. western/southwestern) US cities.
Mass transit is not self-supporting in ANY US city.

[tkelly1986]

A union suing to protect their evaporating turf is typical union logic and not surprising at all. Rational logic would suggest that decreasing costs, becoming more efficient and possibly even profitable would allow the system to expand its services and create more jobs in the long run…Again, why would unions think long term. This would also create more stable union jobs, not ones that are propped up by court cases.

[Novine]

"Mass transit is not emphasized in any newer [[i.e. western/southwestern) US cities.
Mass transit is not self-supporting in ANY US city."

Mass transit may not be emphasized in the south and west but the most ambitious new transit systems have been in cities like Charlotte, NC, Phoenix, AZ and Nashville, TN. Those cities grew without systems like light rail but they've figured out that they can't be sustainable without it.

I thought I had read somewhere that the subway system in NYC is self-supporting. Don't know if that's true. Our highway and road transportation network isn't self-supporting either. If it was, we wouldn't be dealing with potholes and constant complaints about the lack of funding.

[lilpup]

The highway and road transportation network has scalable costs - build or not, widen or not, pave or not [[some roads in Washtenaw County are being reverted to gravel/dirt). Funding shortfalls there are a function of mismanagement or overreaching. Mass transit systems, other than buses, are nowhere near as cost flexible. And even buses are road and highway dependent.

[EastsideAl]

Subway system in NYC is definitely not self-supporting. Transit systems are not self-supporting on fare-box revenues anywhere, and it is a very unrealistic red herring to expect them to be so. So, folks need to throw that notion out of the window before they even start thinking about mass transit. But an extensive and well-run transit system has so many other benefits to the community as a whole that they're always worth it. Certainly cheaper to everyone in the long run, and with more benefits, than subsidizing and building more and larger freeways.

[Novine]

I don't expect any system to be self-sustaining on fares alone but I had heard that the NYC system was. I don't have a link either way to document what percentage of costs they cover.

"Funding shortfalls there are a function of mismanagement or overreaching."

Oh really? Are we supposed to believe that highway users pay the full cost of building and maintaining the road system but it's mismanagement and overreach that account for any shortfalls?

[lilpup]

Mismanagement and overreach include unnecessary new routes and unnecessary expansions of existing routes, poorly supervised construction projects where contractors get away with inferior work and materials, etc. - things that can also happen with all mass transit systems. Quite frankly, the excessive amount of salt dumped on roads in Metro Detroit is an element of poor management.

With roads there is much more flexibility with how and where dollars get spent.

[DetroitDad]

I'm not sure if this is a good place for this, but why can't I buy a regional pass that includes both the People Mover and the buses? The People Mover is a Downtown distrbuting line, right? So why can't suburbanites and outer urbanites take one of the radial bus lines down to the People Mover and transfer? Will the light rail line have it's own issolated pass system too? Would adding the option to combine passes add perceived value?

At least they sell a Smart and DDOT combo pass.

[Tig3rzhark]

I'm not sure if this is a good place for this, but why can't I buy a regional pass that includes both the People Mover and the buses? The People Mover is a Downtown distrbuting line, right? So why can't suburbanites and outer urbanites take one of the radial bus lines down to the People Mover and transfer? Will the light rail line have it's own issolated pass system too? Would adding the option to combine passes add perceived value?

At least they sell a Smart and DDOT combo pass.

I always wondered that too. It seems that the people currently running DDOT are complete idiots. There are a lot of things that need to be done differently.

Of course the reasons why things are the way they are, can be summed up in two words

• Poor Mismanagement

Whoever becomes mayor at the end of the year, really needs to do an overhaul of the Department or eliminate it entirely and replace it with a regional authority. I've yet to see any talks in further collaborations with SMART. Even Chicago's CTA, MARTA, and PACE have a better relationship with each other than SMART and DDOT.

Currently, SMART stands for [[Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transit).

When it actually should be:

Southeastern Michigan Authority for Regional Transit

Forming a regional authority to handle mass transit shouldn't be that damn hard. Just change the naming around, start negotiating with the unions of both SMART and DDOT and perform the merger.

SMART is the closest thing we have to regional transit, that is pathetic!

[Russix]

I'd rather not see a regional authority wasting time sorting out SMART and DDOT's messes. They should be focused on increasing funding, building and operating metro light rail lines, and coordinating the two bus providers to feed into the system. This, theoretically, should reduce some of their cost as they are no longer providing the backbone for the system only the feeder/connector. I assume that 50% of SMART’s budget goes into providing the backbone bus service on the arterials. If they were no longer needed to provide that type of service, they could either provide better feeder service or reduce their costs. Same with DDOT too. I don’t think they would shorten any routes, but I do think they would be able to reduce the number buses there are operating as more people would op for the faster light rail line.

[Tig3rzhark]

I'd rather not see a regional authority wasting time sorting out SMART and DDOT's messes. They should be focused on increasing funding, building and operating metro light rail lines, and coordinating the two bus providers to feed into the system. This, theoretically, should reduce some of their cost as they are no longer providing the backbone for the system only the feeder/connector. I assume that 50% of SMART’s budget goes into providing the backbone bus service on the arterials. If they were no longer needed to provide that type of service, they could either provide better feeder service or reduce their costs. Same with DDOT too. I don’t think they would shorten any routes, but I do think they would be able to reduce the number buses there are operating as more people would op for the faster light rail line.

Since you mentioned the light rail line, let's talk about that:

The proposed M1 rail going from Downtown to New Center.

Thankfully ground hasn't been broken on that yet. If you look at Woodward from Park Ave, to Campus Martius, it is too narrow. In order for it to go down that far, you would have to either close motor traffic down that section or reroute the rail to go down Washington Blvd.

I actually recommend that since it will put it within walking distance of the Rosa Parks Transit Center.

Or, you can simply end the southern portion of the train at Grand Circus Park and use the People Mover station as a feeder throughout the rest of Downtown.

My optimism in the well-needed upgrade in mass transit is slowly starting to fade. Although the DDOT cuts have not effected me much, this doesn't bode well for those that are dependent on buses to as their sole way of getting around.

Light rail is great for the long term, but in the meantime, we have to get these buses running on time, now.

[stasu1213]

It appears to me that the leaders in this state would rather invest money on the pavement of roads and freeway with cheap asphalt rather than light rail which would save wear and tear on the roads. 3 yrs ago many of the freeways and streets were being repaved. Are you telling me that this material being laid down can't last no more than a couple of years. All of this to provide for the automobile which the makers had crippled this whole region. Light rail could had been put to use if the politician would had directed the money in that direction instead of cheap asphalt that only lasts 2 to 3 yrs

[DetroitDad]

Since you mentioned the light rail line, let's talk about that:

The proposed M1 rail going from Downtown to New Center.

Thankfully ground hasn't been broken on that yet. If you look at Woodward from Park Ave, to Campus Martius, it is too narrow. In order for it to go down that far, you would have to either close motor traffic down that section or reroute the rail to go down Washington Blvd.

I actually recommend that since it will put it within walking distance of the Rosa Parks Transit Center.

Or, you can simply end the southern portion of the train at Grand Circus Park and use the People Mover station as a feeder throughout the rest of Downtown.

My optimism in the well-needed upgrade in mass transit is slowly starting to fade. Although the DDOT cuts have not effected me much, this doesn't bode well for those that are dependent on buses to as their sole way of getting around.

Light rail is great for the long term, but in the meantime, we have to get these buses running on time, now.

How they explained it at the transit meetings was that we basically have to have some start to light rail before the federal government will give us a serious look [[stimulus, grants, tax credits, etc.). Basically, they will only fund expansion of a system that already is running and has funding.

This is why everyone is eager to get this first line done. Again, I might not have that right, but that's what I took away from the meetings.

[Todd_Scott]

The highway and road transportation network has scalable costs - build or not, widen or not, pave or not [[some roads in Washtenaw County are being reverted to gravel/dirt). Funding shortfalls there are a function of mismanagement or overreaching. Mass transit systems, other than buses, are nowhere near as cost flexible. And even buses are road and highway dependent.

A major advantage of mass transit is it's more scalable than personal motorized vehicles. It's far more cost effective to add additional trains or buses to increase carrying capacity than it is to widen roads. Also, widening roads produces diminishing returns -- they are not very scalable.

If you want to push an agenda, that's fine but I would suggest you research some credible arguments for it first.

[lilpup]

I'm not pushing an agenda at all. I really don't care one way or the other since it won't affect me. But to say non-bus mass transit is more scalable when it requires more upfront infrastructure and the laying of rails/electrical any time for expansion is a joke. Mass transit will never replace cars so anything other than bus transit is going to be redundant and expensive. Bus transit requires the same infrastructure cars do, so that argument is moot.

[EastsideAl]

If you look at Woodward from Park Ave, to Campus Martius, it is too narrow. In order for it to go down that far, you would have to either close motor traffic down that section or reroute the rail to go down Washington Blvd.

I'm not sure why you would say that, streetcars ran down that stretch of Woodward for over 50 years [[and horse-cars for decades before that). Woodward was very much open to traffic, including buses, during all of that time, and had much much more pedestrian traffic as it was then the retail center of the entire Detroit area.

[Todd_Scott]

I'm not pushing an agenda at all. I really don't care one way or the other since it won't affect me. But to say non-bus mass transit is more scalable when it requires more upfront infrastructure and the laying of rails/electrical any time for expansion is a joke.

Okay. You're not using the right word. You're not talking about scalability. Scalability is the relationship between capacity and adding infrastructure TO EXISTING SYSTEMS. With mass transit you can realize significant gains in capacity by adding buses or trains without having to add more rail. Adding more cars to a road does not scale near as well and neither does adding more lanes, e.g. a four lane road does not carry twice as many cars as a two lane road. Adding road lanes also induces greater vehicle traffic.

And again, no matter where you live in Metro Detroit, our transportation system affects you for many of the reasons I've already listed.

[Russix]

I'm not sure why you would say that, streetcars ran down that stretch of Woodward for over 50 years [[and horse-cars for decades before that). Woodward was very much open to traffic, including buses, during all of that time, and had much much more pedestrian traffic as it was then the retail center of the entire Detroit area.

That portion of Woodward was reconstructed sometime in the last 50+ years after that picture was taken. The sidewalks were widen and 2 travel lanes plus the center lane/streetcar ROW were removed. Also, in the former busiest intersection of the world, is now a large park and the fact that buses navigate around it is still pretty amazing let alone a larger rail vehicle in traffic. The traffic bottleneck on this stretch would potentially decapitate a light rail system at the very moment when it could be realizing its most usefulness. What should be done, in my opinion, is to excavate a ramp where the “No Left Turn� lane is just north of Adams into the Grand Circus Park Garage and make that a pseudo subway station. You already have all the infrastructure in place. You have a People Mover station basically on top of it. And you have entrance wells on both sides of the park. People would not have to “crowd� into the street to board it. And the light rail would not interfere with narrow traffic on the lower portions of Woodward. Just my 2 unicorns.

[Tig3rzhark]

I'm not sure why you would say that, streetcars ran down that stretch of Woodward for over 50 years [[and horse-cars for decades before that). Woodward was very much open to traffic, including buses, during all of that time, and had much much more pedestrian traffic as it was then the retail center of the entire Detroit area.

I'm a little worried.

If the track isn't laid right, it could end up like another People Mover, and we all know how that went.

Local service would still have to be provided by the buses, of course. The streetcar would have to operate at few stops and quickly. Also, it must have exclusive right of way during big events like the Fireworks, otherwise it would be no different than sitting in your car trying to get to Royal Oak after the fireworks is over.

I'm really looking forward to the day when public transportation here runs on time. I don't want to be disappointed.

I ride my bike a lot to avoid the current disappointments, however sometimes I would like to be able to ride and catch the bus or train when I'm tired. I want to be able to put my bike in the streetcar during non-peak hours.

Also, when the trains stop running, where will they go?

If it goes all the way down to Hart Plaza, a building would have to be built to house them and maintain them. Also, if it doesn't get high priority at the lights, then it would be no different than catching the bus.

[Todd_Scott]

I ride my bike a lot to avoid the current disappointments, however sometimes I would like to be able to ride and catch the bus or train when I'm tired. I want to be able to put my bike in the streetcar during non-peak hours.

The plan is to have bike hooks within the cars to hold a couple or perhaps more bikes.

[professorscott]

To all the people who are straining to imagine how light rail might work, I would like to offer a suggestion: take a field trip. Go to any other big city in the U.S. or Canada, and ride their transit. Every other city in the top 25 has light rail and/or commuter rail and/or a subway, so you have your pick. Many cities have light rail of various varieties - either the "full light rail", which is higher speed and has stops spaced somewhat farther apart, or something akin to the streetcar service we used to have, which - agreed - is itself not faster than a bus [[but for some reason seems more popular where it exists).

If you're on a budget and can only go to one place, and would like to see high speed light rail and a streetcar together, go to Portland, Oregon. Watch out for all the scaffolding and construction vehicles in the area where the regional light rail and the streetcars run. [[If you're not familiar with the term "scaffolding", it is a type of construction equipment used in places where people are investing in new and rehabbed buildings.)

If, on the other hand, you would like to bolster the argument that we don't need light rail, I would invite you to find any region the size of ours - 4 to 5 million people - anywhere in the developed world that is successful and does not have any rail based transit. If you find one, please post here where you found it, since I am not aware of any such place anywhere. But that doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Tig3rzhark]

I just came from Los Angeles, California this year for my family reunion. That area has implemented mass transit very well. Unfortunately some laws would have to be passed here in Michigan in order for Detroit to ever get to that level.

I almost didn't want to come home, but the cost of living in that area is too high for me.

A local tax on parking could help pay for transit. I think that's how LA managed to get theirs done To be honest, I think that's what it's going to take. The taxes will have to go up in order to pay for its expansion.

There isn't enough money in the city and the city is simply going to have to find some way to increase revenue. Start taxing the hell out of parking.

[lilpup]

and finally put the city out of its misery??

Detroit is not in a position to drive away remaining business. This is not the right time to try to implement light rail or a major mass transit expansion.

The current system needs to become efficient and attractive - merge DDot and SMART, service the routes that have the most demand, and do a good enough job to increase ridership. Until that kind of competent management is displayed nothing else will work.