Return of the Q line

[KnnNike]

Lol, I just love reading all of the anti-transit lane comments on here from people who either live in the suburbs or have never lived in a big city outside of Detroit. Y'all act like Detroit is struggling with some massively complex, never-before-heard of problem...not enough parking directly in front of storefronts.

There are dozens of thriving cities with commercial centers that are orders of magnitude more difficult to reach by car. In downtown Washington DC where I used to live, you're usually looking for 30 minutes to find parking if you want to be right in front of the store. Or you're paying $25 per hour to park in a nearby garage. Geez, how ever do people do it? They Uber, walk, bike, etc..

The point is that we need to make it less convenient for people to plop their cars in downtown. Every other big city besides Detroit figured this out decades ago. People will adapt and development will follow. As long as the major attractions like the sports team commit to staying in place it will work out. Eventually things would get so bad that even the suburbanites will be demanding transit options to get downtown...what, are you going to drive the Cleveland for sporting events?

[Gistok]

The point is that we need to make it less convenient for people to plop their cars in downtown. Every other big city besides Detroit figured this out decades ago. People will adapt and development will follow. As long as the major attractions like the sports team commit to staying in place it will work out. Eventually things would get so bad that even the suburbanites will be demanding transit options to get downtown...what, are you going to drive the Cleveland for sporting events?

Yeah... I can't figure out the parking in front of the store issue... even in suburbs you can't often do that.

As for making it too difficult to park downtown, that's another issue. Metro Detroit has always been car centric going back over half a century. But make parking too difficult... then people may just opt out of coming downtown. My family has an annual tradition of going down to Greektown for lunch every Good Friday and then to the Belle Isle Conservatory and Aquarium. Been doing that for 30 years. Only problem is, if there is a Tigers game on that day, we avoid the parking mess downtown [[not worth paying $20-$50 for). Instead we go to either Pegasus or Fishbones in SCS, and then hit Belle Isle.

When the family goes downtown, we park once and take the People Mover or Q-Line to get around, which works great. Walking is part of the Downtown/Midtown experience.

[EGrant]

It'll never be enough for some people. For example, Royal Oak has built all kinds of parking garages, implemented extremely favorable rates and free parking times and people still complain that there's not enough parking because they can't park directly in front of Buffalo Wild Wings for free on a Friday night.

[Rocket]

Royal Oak has built all kinds of parking garages, implemented extremely favorable rates and free parking times and people still complain that there's not enough parking because they can't park directly in front of Buffalo Wild Wings for free on a Friday night.

Depends on the kind of store.

If it's an all evening dinner and movie kind of deal, then yeah, people don't mind going into a parking garage, walking the stairs and the blocks to the bar or whatever.

But if you're stopping at a shop for 10 min to buy something, you don't want to spend twice that long going into and out of a garage.

People who have money value their time, and aren't going to park in a garage, give away their privacy by typing their plate number / using a CC to park. Then hike down a few flights of stairs and walk 2 blocks just to eat lunch or get an ice cream cone.

[dtowncitylover]

Depends on the kind of store.

If it's an all evening dinner and movie kind of deal, then yeah, people don't mind going into a parking garage, walking the stairs and the blocks to the bar or whatever.

But if you're stopping at a shop for 10 min to buy something, you don't want to spend twice that long going into and out of a garage.

People who have money value their time, and aren't going to park in a garage, give away their privacy by typing their plate number / using a CC to park. Then hike down a few flights of stairs and walk 2 blocks just to eat lunch or get an ice cream cone.

True, yet in Royal Oak many stores are only open until 7 or so and when there's free 2 hr parking before 5 there's a good chance one is going to those stores during the day weekday or weekend [[with Sundays being free street parking anyway). And Royal Oak is so well known for the restaurant scene that most coming in past 5 are going there for dinner anyway and therefore willing to spend the money to park.

[Jason]

Depends on the kind of store.

If it's an all evening dinner and movie kind of deal, then yeah, people don't mind going into a parking garage, walking the stairs and the blocks to the bar or whatever.

But if you're stopping at a shop for 10 min to buy something, you don't want to spend twice that long going into and out of a garage.

People who have money value their time, and aren't going to park in a garage, give away their privacy by typing their plate number / using a CC to park. Then hike down a few flights of stairs and walk 2 blocks just to eat lunch or get an ice cream cone.

These types of people already don't go to either Royal Oak or Detroit because of "the parking", and having or not having street parking doesn't affect this.

[EGrant]

The QLine is back today, with full service starting on Monday [[with no fares).

Story from Local4

[Satiricalivory]

Suburbanites driving up here is not a priority for the city, sorry. The priority is to build a city that's best for the residents who live there and continue to grow that population with walkable environments [[that means little to no parking). That's how you make a successful city. Nobody cares if you find it difficult to find parking, take the bus.

[Honky Tonk]

Nobody cares if you find it difficult to find parking, take the bus.

With the rate businesses open and close in the City, I bet the business owners care.

[Gistok]

Suburbanites driving up here is not a priority for the city, sorry. The priority is to build a city that's best for the residents who live there and continue to grow that population with walkable environments [[that means little to no parking). That's how you make a successful city. Nobody cares if you find it difficult to find parking, take the bus.

Sorry but you are wrong... Suburbanites are a BIG priority for the city... a large percentage of the folks who visit LCA, Comerica Park, Ford Field, the Opera House, Orchestra Hall, Fox, Masonic, Fillmore, Gem & Century Theatres, restaurants, as well as the majority of special functions such as DLECTRICITY have a large suburbanite attendance.

If these venues/functions depended solely on city residents... half of downtown and midtown would be a desert again as it was in the end of the last century. Sure a lot of city residents also participate as well... but the entertainment district is dependent on both city AND suburban folks. And the city works to welcome everyone.

[Rocket]

Suburbanites driving up here is not a priority for the city, sorry. The priority is to build a city that's best for the residents who live there and continue to grow that population with walkable environments [[that means little to no parking). That's how you make a successful city. Nobody cares if you find it difficult to find parking, take the bus.

Well, light rail cannot serve those running a business [[who need to haul stuff), or people with children in tow, or that have a lot of shopping to do, etc.

Pretty much the only use for it is in a young office worker / entertainment / restaurant district. Which to be fair, Detroit has partially built with lofts, The Fox, Comerica Park, Pizza Stadium, Ford Field, Casino, etc.

But most of those things do not add to an economy. They don't produce anything of value. They're merely entertainment. In fact they're a slight economic drain on balance. Lots of energy and materials spent with nothing to show for it other than amusement [[muse being to think,.. so A-muse = 'prevented from thinking').

HOWEVER,.. if those things are in YOUR city, and you can get people from OTHER cities come in and leave their money behind, then your city benefits [[at a small loss to the others).

Ok cool. Just what we were hoping for.

BUT, we don't want to put up any obstacles to those outsiders coming into our city and leaving their money behind by making it time consuming or difficult for them to get out of their cars.

[Satiricalivory]

Sorry but you are wrong... Suburbanites are a BIG priority for the city...

That's nice you think so, tell that to the city planning commission. Who are definitely not designing the city like a giant strip mall for suburbanites. They don't care. In fact they're implementing a zoning overhaul that eliminates parking requirements entirely.

Suburbanites really need to get over their delusions.

[bust]

... a large percentage of the folks who visit LCA, Comerica Park, Ford Field, the Opera House, Orchestra Hall, Fox, Masonic, Fillmore, Gem & Century Theatres, restaurants, as well as the majority of special functions such as DLECTRICITY have a large suburbanite attendance.

If these venues/functions depended solely on city residents...

Absolutely right.
Here you're absolutely wrong:

half of downtown and midtown would be a desert again...

No healthy city depends so heavily on suburban folks occasionally driving in for the opera or any of the above.

Healthy cities have a wide range of commercial activities that serve actual residents densely integrated into communities unburdened by so much parking for suburban folk. If that does not include The Opera, so be it. You may be surprised what culture is produced.

If suburbanites expect free parking directly in front or adjacent to whatever it is they patronize but actual city people don't and can't handle being ever so little inconvenienced during their occasional visits to the city, especially when the small sacrifice is for the great benefit of better service for actual city residents who live there 24/7... I watched my words and edited out what I think of that.

Downtown Detroit is a veritable desert because of so much [had to edit again] parking for suburbanites, a few greedy speculators [more suburbanites] who milk and corrupt the system, and a corrupt city government whose officials are allegiant [sic.] to whomever offers the heaviest teat [really pete] to be milked.

[Gistok]

^Oh I agree that nothing special should be done for suburbanites. Enough damage has been done in the past via freeways plowing thru city neighborhoods. I find there is so much available for both city and suburbanites... if you know what options there are. There is far too many parking lots downtown, especially the north end.

I love the People Mover, and it's one of the best ways to avoid the parking sprawl that Ilitch and others have built. Same goes for the Q-Line.

Parking in front of a store is an absurdity in both Downtown and Midtown. It's even been like that during the darkest retail days downtown/midtown, during the last few decades of the last century.

[Jason]

The majority of people living in the developed world get their groceries by transit, foot, and bicycle, picking up what they need for that day or the next day on their way home from work. There are only a few countries where driving 20 minutes to a literal warehouse to do 2+ weeks worth of shopping all at once is normal, and even out of those handful of countries, we stand out as an extreme.

Kids aren't really an issue. Sidewalks are safer than parking lots for kids. Rolling strollers onto trains is easier than loading babies onto cars. There's no distracted driving. The leading cause of child death is car accidents, at 20%.

Businesses do need delivery vehicles and trucks and things like that but that's not related to transit usage or reducing street parking or reducing driving lanes. Even in those European cities that have been closing their downtowns off to cars, the streets are still open for emergency and delivery vehicles. But even those aren't as necessary as people think. I've heard stories [[from non-transit related sources) from both the UK and Japan of contractors dropping the big stuff off with a truck when needed and riding a bike to the job the rest of the time.


Even with Detroit as it is now, there are routes that make sense for transit. 31% of workers in Grosse Pointe Park work in Detroit [[the numbers are similar for the other Pointes). Another 25% works within the Pointes. With fast, convenient, reliable, comfortable transit, most households in Grosse Pointe Park could be one car households, keeping one car for convenience. Car dependence from that tiny suburb alone has cost Detroit's economy $60 million in parking construction costs. Plus opportunity costs from not being able to use that land and money for productive uses. If only half of those commuters dropped their cars, it would save them $13 million a year in car ownership expenses. The Woodward/75 corridor also has a strong commuting relationship both within itself and to downtown Detroit.

In Japan, even metropolitan areas with 1.5 million people have subways. Everywhere has great bus service and regional rail. Their transit projects are built with the expectation that they recoup their costs and become profitable, and much of their transit is privately owned. American consumers spend 18.7% of their incomes on transportation. Japanese spend 10% on transportation. Supposedly the cost of healthcare has been crushing Americans, but we only spend 8% of our incomes on healthcare.

It doesn't matter how you work the numbers, large scale car use just doesn't work.

[Rocket]

It doesn't matter how you work the numbers, large scale car use just doesn't work.

^ Unless you want to be wealthy, or live in a house, or have a yard.

Mass transit works great when your population is fairly poor, and is forced to live in small boxes in high-rise buildings.

In Japan, the average income is just 83% of what it is in the USA, while simultaneously being quite a bit more expensive a place to live. Their homes for example average 1/2 the size of ours at just 1,300 sq ft.

So if we double our housing density and get poorer, the light rail will start to make a lot of sense. Personally, I'm hoping that DOESN'T happen.

Using "Purchasing power index" [[which is income v.s. the cost of living), the USA is #6 in the world.

1. Macao,
2. Quatar,
3. Bermuda,
4. Singapore
5. Norway.
6. USA
7. Luxembourg,
8. Iceland
9. Kuwait
10. Switzerland
.
.
.
17. Germany
18. Sweden
22. Saudi Arabia
.
.
29. Japan
.
.
37. Russia

We definitely don't want to be like Japan.

[Jason]

Vehicles [[includes buses, semi-trucks, etc.) per 1,000 people:

1. Macao, 172
2. Quatar, 411
3. Bermuda,
4. Singapore, 170
5. Norway, 522
6. USA, 816
7. Luxembourg, 618
8. Iceland, 866
9. Kuwait, 477
10. Switzerland, 537

In Japan, the average income is just 83% of what it is in the USA, while simultaneously being quite a bit more expensive a place to live. Their homes for example average 1/2 the size of ours at just 1,300 sq ft.

Japanese cost of living is lower than ours [[https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-...-and-japan.htm). And Japanese houses are usually 3-4 bedrooms with 1.5 baths. They're about the same size or bigger than American houses built before the 1980s. They don't really have yards, but every few blocks are neighborhood parks. This area is 5 minutes from a subway station. https://goo.gl/maps/gioRafNmeQzzdhMJ8

But it doesn't really matter what is happening in Japan, you don't need to be Japan to have a metro system. One of the things I like about the Vancouver SkyTrain is that most of it runs through normal North American single family development. Stations located in "urban centers" [[little downtowns throughout the region) get densified. The rest just gets fed by good bus service and park and rides.

[renf]

It is good news to know that the Q line will be in operation for the Tigers' final home game of their unexpectedly successful season.

[bust]

Rocket,

It's important to compare median purchasing power, not average. Otherwise a tiny number of exorbitantly wealthy people throw the numbers way off.

Besides, let's look at those economies.

The first four countries on your list are klepto-States, three of them are totalitarian.

1) Macao is the Las Vegas of Asia. Corruption is in its DNA since before the Opium War. It's where Sheldon Adelson made his billions.
2) Singapore, another former hub of the colonial opium trade. Now the pendulum has swung the other way, where chewing gum is banned. Almost every major bank has their biggest Asian operation there, still.
3) Qatar, home to crime bosses and other fugitives living in luxury without fear of an extradition treaty. Besides oil sheiks.
4) Bermuda, one of most culpable tax havens. Oxfam said they're the worst.
5) Norway [petroleum riches], and 6) USA [many riches], ok.
7) Luxembourg, another tax haven, like 10) Switzerland. Did you think Amazon is based in Seattle? No, legally they're in Luxembourg, avoiding taxes on their vast profits. Many other corporations, upon advice, are there too.
8) Iceland, I don't know.
9) Kuwait, no need to explain.
And so on.

That "purchasing power" index doesn't say what you thought it did.

Math. More important, when the powers-that-be drive at least a BMW and their patrons Lamborghinis whether they favor cars or transit is skewed.

[bartocktoo]

Rocket,

It's important to compare median purchasing power, not average. Otherwise a tiny number of exorbitantly wealthy people throw the numbers way off.

Besides, let's look at those economies.

The first four countries on your list are klepto-States, three of them are totalitarian.

1) Macao is the Las Vegas of Asia. Corruption is in its DNA since before the Opium War. It's where Sheldon Adelson made his billions.
2) Singapore, another former hub of the colonial opium trade. Now the pendulum has swung the other way, where chewing gum is banned. Almost every major bank has their biggest Asian operation there, still.
3) Qatar, home to crime bosses and other fugitives living in luxury without fear of an extradition treaty. Besides oil sheiks.
4) Bermuda, one of most culpable tax havens. Oxfam said they're the worst.
5) Norway [petroleum riches], and 6) USA [many riches], ok.
7) Luxembourg, another tax haven, like 10) Switzerland. Did you think Amazon is based in Seattle? No, legally they're in Luxembourg, avoiding taxes on their vast profits. Many other corporations, upon advice, are there too.
8) Iceland, I don't know.
9) Kuwait, no need to explain.
And so on.

That "purchasing power" index doesn't say what you thought it did.

Math. More important, when the powers-that-be drive at least a BMW and their patrons Lamborghinis whether they favor cars or transit is skewed.

You've just judged millions of people in several countries you don't know.

[13606Cedargrove]

Rocket did not judge the people. He judged the political and economic systems of those countries.

[Rocket]

Rocket did not judge the people. He judged the political and economic systems of those countries.

Thanks.

And I wasn't even trying to do that,

I only meant to bring up income v.s. cost of living, which equates in my mind to standard of living. Well, disposable income at least. There's lots of other factors I suppose in "standard of living, depending on how you define it.

Disposable income is a huge factor for me, and translates to some degree to freedom. Economic freedom for sure, the ability to start your own business, vacation where and when you want to, send your children to private schools and the like, etc.

Others will put a bigger premium on healthcare quality, how 'walk-able' their city is, air quality, etc, etc. There's lots of ways to figure it I suppose.


But anyway, if you take out those very small states I listed like Macao, Quatar etc,.. we're only behind Norway and Singapore. Not bad to be 3rd out of 190 some countries in terms of income v.s. costs of living.

Anyway, light rail, subways etc work great when you have high pop density, which means people living closer together. So massive bustling cities like Tokyo, Shanghai, Manhattan etc. Not so much when you have sprawl like Detroit, which has just 40% of the population as it did 60 years ago.

Tokyo for instance has nearly 3.5 x the number of people living in each square mile. Manhattan has 14.5 x the density we do.

[bartocktoo]

Read what he or she wrote again.

[bartocktoo]

Thanks.

And I wasn't even trying to do that,

I only meant to bring up income v.s. cost of living, which equates in my mind to standard of living. Well, disposable income at least. There's lots of other factors I suppose in "standard of living, depending on how you define it.

Disposable income is a huge factor for me, and translates to some degree to freedom. Economic freedom for sure, the ability to start your own business, vacation where and when you want to, send your children to private schools and the like, etc.

Others will put a bigger premium on healthcare quality, how 'walk-able' their city is, air quality, etc, etc. There's lots of ways to figure it I suppose.


But anyway, if you take out those very small states I listed like Macao, Quatar etc,.. we're only behind Norway and Singapore. Not bad to be 3rd out of 190 some countries in terms of income v.s. costs of living.

Anyway, light rail, subways etc work great when you have high pop density, which means people living closer together. So massive bustling cities like Tokyo, Shanghai, Manhattan etc. Not so much when you have sprawl like Detroit, which has just 40% of the population as it did 60 years ago.

Tokyo for instance has nearly 3.5 x the number of people living in each square mile. Manhattan has 14.5 x the density we do.

Fair enough, but we will never be those places.

[Jason]

Disposable income is a huge factor for me, and translates to some degree to freedom. Economic freedom for sure, the ability to start your own business, vacation where and when you want to, send your children to private schools and the like, etc.

The average annual cost of owning a car is $8,000. Every household needing a car for every person is a huge financial burden. 2 parents plus 2 teens is 4 cars. If the whole family could share one car that would be a huge amount of savings which they could use to pay for college, go on lavish vacations, invest or start a business.

Cars are also a huge burden on business. A parking space costs about $15,000 to build. There are ongoing costs to plow and light it, and it needs to be repaved after it degrades. It's common in suburbs for the parking lot to cost more money to build than the actual building housing the business. It's also pretty common for the parking lot to take up more real estate than the actual building.

Anyway, light rail, subways etc work great when you have high pop density, which means people living closer together. So massive bustling cities like Tokyo, Shanghai, Manhattan etc.

Population and employment density are both general proxies for potential ridership, because it means there's more people within a short distance of the stations. But you can increase the functional catchment area of a station by having good feeder bus service and bike infrastructure and park and rides. What really matters are the specific trips that can be accommodated. Canton being low density doesn't really impact whether or not someone from Royal Oak could take transit to their office in downtown Detroit.

Right now in Detroit there is 6 miles of metro that could be built and make practical sense [[People Mover expansion to New Center and to Van Dyke). I've done the math on the operating costs, and it would be cheaper to operate than the bus routes it would be replacing. It would be faster [[faster than even driving by car), perfectly reliable, more frequent, and higher capacity. Increased property and income tax would cover the cost to build it, only requiring the investment to create a moderate amount of development.

Extending beyond that already does have a basis [[population/employment density and commuting patterns) but would require more planning and coordination, and longer term thinking in order for it to work. But those first 6 miles are already a slam dunk today without having to do anything special.