Return of the Q line

[Rocket]

^ Someone weighing bus v.s. car probably isn't shopping for "average car", I.E. a $35,000 Lincoln MKZ or the like. Probably more like a Chevy Trax, or if they're smart, a well-used Fusion with 50,000 miles.

Buy one of those for $4,000 and drive it for 8 years, then sell it for $1,500, making the cost more like $315 a year. Plus a grand for maintenance, and $1,200 for insurance, and you get more like $2,500 a year. [[My first 3 cars were all under $1,400 in today's money).


We also have to consider a worker's time.

The rail + feeder system etc you speak about means workers spend literally hours getting to and from work. 15 min waiting for a bus, then go to a stop and get off, then wait again for a train, then travel down WW or the like at 8 mph.

I've had employees that commuted on the bus [[which is faster) for 1:45 to work, then another 1:15 to get home, for what would have been a 12 min drive each way by car. What does that lost 650 hours year cost? At just $15 an hour it's almost $10k.

V.s. $2,500 - $5,000 to have a car? And all the freedom it provides?


I don't know. I just don't see it. For an entertainment district sure, the light rail makes sense, IF occasionally there's a huge, safe, clean, well-lit parking garage. But outside of that, as a means to get around or get to work, and with our low pop density, it just seems like another way to light truckloads of money on fire.

[Jason]

https://www.move.org/average-cost-owning-a-car/

Actually apparently Michigan is $9,300. According to their methodology this doesn't include the cost of labor in car repairs [[parts only), and doesn't include parking costs, car washes, or any of the other small things car owners have to pay for.


As I've said, I don't think the QLine is good transit and I'm not in favor of expanding it, or of the city taking it over. But if it had transit lanes, it would be more frequent and more reliable and it would provide an additional layer of service on top of the buses. The transit lanes biggest impact would be on buses, where they would improve reliability and speed and save DDOT $4 million a year.

I'm not a fan of streetcars [[the QLine and others) but I'm also not a fan of light rail, because low end light rail doesn't have much advantage over buses but costs a lot more, and while at the high end it's just as expensive as a metro but without the full benefits.

The transit scenario I was describing was a People Mover expansion [[a metro system).

The feeder buses would be similar to the current system except modified to take advantage of the metro line. Since some bus routes are very long and improving service across the entire bus route isn't practical, I think there should be more intensive supplemental feeder lines for the areas within a within a few miles from the stations, using a small number of buses, with peak headways being about 10 minutes.

For example if there were a PM expansion to Royal Oak and you lived in Huntington Woods within walking distance, driving downtown would take 18-28 minutes down I-75 [[according to google maps) plus parking and walking time. Riding the metro would take 28 minutes [[12 miles at 25 mph) plus 0-4 minutes boarding time, plus walk time. An extension to Grosse Pointe Park would take 12-22 minutes driving and 15 minutes by metro. Plus parking/walking. It's not a huge difference, but like you said, people's time has value, and you can do work or entertainment on your phone while riding transit.

If you have to ride the bus then you're looking at an additional 0-10 minutes waiting for the bus in a nice bus shelter, and 5-10 minutes riding the bus. Yeah it's 5-20 minutes longer but it's still doable, and again, most of that time you can do things on your phone. Or you can drive to the station and park there, which would have overall comparable travel time to driving the whole way.

[softailrider]

https://www.move.org/average-cost-owning-a-car/

Actually apparently Michigan is $9,300. According to their methodology this doesn't include the cost of labor in car repairs [[parts only), and doesn't include parking costs, car washes, or any of the other small things car owners have to pay for.


As I've said, I don't think the QLine is good transit and I'm not in favor of expanding it, or of the city taking it over. But if it had transit lanes, it would be more frequent and more reliable and it would provide an additional layer of service on top of the buses. The transit lanes biggest impact would be on buses, where they would improve reliability and speed and save DDOT $4 million a year.

I'm not a fan of streetcars [[the QLine and others) but I'm also not a fan of light rail, because low end light rail doesn't have much advantage over buses but costs a lot more, and while at the high end it's just as expensive as a metro but without the full benefits.

The transit scenario I was describing was a People Mover expansion [[a metro system).

The feeder buses would be similar to the current system except modified to take advantage of the metro line. Since some bus routes are very long and improving service across the entire bus route isn't practical, I think there should be more intensive supplemental feeder lines for the areas within a within a few miles from the stations, using a small number of buses, with peak headways being about 10 minutes.

For example if there were a PM expansion to Royal Oak and you lived in Huntington Woods within walking distance, driving downtown would take 18-28 minutes down I-75 [[according to google maps) plus parking and walking time. Riding the metro would take 28 minutes [[12 miles at 25 mph) plus 0-4 minutes boarding time, plus walk time. An extension to Grosse Pointe Park would take 12-22 minutes driving and 15 minutes by metro. Plus parking/walking. It's not a huge difference, but like you said, people's time has value, and you can do work or entertainment on your phone while riding transit.

If you have to ride the bus then you're looking at an additional 0-10 minutes waiting for the bus in a nice bus shelter, and 5-10 minutes riding the bus. Yeah it's 5-20 minutes longer but it's still doable, and again, most of that time you can do things on your phone. Or you can drive to the station and park there, which would have overall comparable travel time to driving the whole way.

I really doubt any of the above is going to happen.

Detroit just isn’t a mass transit town anymore, from what I understand it used to be, but that ended in the mid 50’s. Now it seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[JonWylie]

I really doubt any of the above is going to happen.

Detroit just isn’t a mass transit town anymore, from what I understand it used to be, but that ended in the mid 50’s. Now it seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Let's make it one

[Rocket]

https://www.move.org/average-cost-owning-a-car/

Actually apparently Michigan is $9,300. According to their methodology this doesn't include the cost of labor in car repairs [[parts only), and doesn't include parking costs, car washes, or any of the other small things car owners have to pay for.


If you have to ride the bus then you're looking at an additional 0-10 minutes waiting for the bus in a nice bus shelter, and 5-10 minutes riding the bus. Yeah it's 5-20 minutes longer but it's still doable,

Ok, but I never said "Average" car. The 'average' new pickup truck now is nearly $60,000. And insuring a financed car in Detroit would be another $ 2k a year.

I was suggesting something on the low end, like the 3 workers I know that bought cars in the $ 900 - $2,000 range in the last year.



Also, "Nice bus shelter" ? Where are those? I know they have them in some places in NY or DC, but do we have any here? Like covered, heated? Like they do for the people mover? Mostly I see people standing on the side of the road, and the only evidence there's a bus stop there is a sign nailed to a telephone pole.

And you left out the walk time after someone gets off their bus. Being as bus routes aren't very flexible usually, and Q-Line is completely inflexible, your walking time after getting off a Q would be a good bit longer than it would be getting out of a car in most cases. Perhaps 5 - 10x.


So 10-20 min waiting for a bus [[standing outside, perhaps in the cold, heat, rain, snow) Then an extra 20 min on the bus, plus 10-20 min walking in whatever weather to get to your final destination. And that's only IF you live on the same road as you work on. Most everyone has to make at least one change of buss. So we need to factor in 20 min or so for that.

So you should probably add an hour each way to the car drive time to get a more realistic estimate.

[bartocktoo]

https://www.move.org/average-cost-owning-a-car/

Actually apparently Michigan is $9,300. According to their methodology this doesn't include the cost of labor in car repairs [[parts only), and doesn't include parking costs, car washes, or any of the other small things car owners have to pay for.


As I've said, I don't think the QLine is good transit and I'm not in favor of expanding it, or of the city taking it over. But if it had transit lanes, it would be more frequent and more reliable and it would provide an additional layer of service on top of the buses. The transit lanes biggest impact would be on buses, where they would improve reliability and speed and save DDOT $4 million a year.

I'm not a fan of streetcars [[the QLine and others) but I'm also not a fan of light rail, because low end light rail doesn't have much advantage over buses but costs a lot more, and while at the high end it's just as expensive as a metro but without the full benefits.

The transit scenario I was describing was a People Mover expansion [[a metro system).

The feeder buses would be similar to the current system except modified to take advantage of the metro line. Since some bus routes are very long and improving service across the entire bus route isn't practical, I think there should be more intensive supplemental feeder lines for the areas within a within a few miles from the stations, using a small number of buses, with peak headways being about 10 minutes.

For example if there were a PM expansion to Royal Oak and you lived in Huntington Woods within walking distance, driving downtown would take 18-28 minutes down I-75 [[according to google maps) plus parking and walking time. Riding the metro would take 28 minutes [[12 miles at 25 mph) plus 0-4 minutes boarding time, plus walk time. An extension to Grosse Pointe Park would take 12-22 minutes driving and 15 minutes by metro. Plus parking/walking. It's not a huge difference, but like you said, people's time has value, and you can do work or entertainment on your phone while riding transit.

If you have to ride the bus then you're looking at an additional 0-10 minutes waiting for the bus in a nice bus shelter, and 5-10 minutes riding the bus. Yeah it's 5-20 minutes longer but it's still doable, and again, most of that time you can do things on your phone. Or you can drive to the station and park there, which would have overall comparable travel time to driving the whole way.

No specifics, but in general where do you live, Jason?

[Jason]

And you left out the walk time after someone gets off their bus. Being as bus routes aren't very flexible usually, and Q-Line is completely inflexible, your walking time after getting off a Q would be a good bit longer than it would be getting out of a car in most cases. Perhaps 5 - 10x.

I might not have been clear enough but there's a few different transit scenarios that I've been talking about in response to different points you've raised. I have never suggested expanding the QLine.

1. You said that doing transit lanes through midtown would be bad, and so I responded that it would improve car flow, improve transit service, save the city money, and create usable sidewalk space, at the marginal expense of a small number of parking spaces. I also said that the bus stops should be moved to the QLine stations so that midtown passengers can stand at one stop and take whichever comes first. Both of these things are clearly beneficial and only require MDOT and DDOT to decide to do them.

2. You said that higher order transit would not work in Detroit because it's not dense enough, and so I responded with the 6 miles of metro that are very practical right now. Expanding the People Mover into a metro system, to New Center and to Van Dyke, would be cheaper to operate than the bus service that it would replace, and capital costs would be recovered through new income and property tax revenue. You can search through my post history for more indepth explanations but I've done the math on it. While this is completely doable, I know our track record with transit.

3. You also said that it wouldn't work in Detroit because transit can't compete with the car, and so I gave a hypothetical transit situation, a metro line to Royal Oak. This is not something that is immediately doable, and would take long term planning and a lot of political coordination to happen. But it's a specific example which illustrates the pros and cons of having good transit. It's cheaper and you can use travel time more productively. Unless you live next to a station, it's slower than driving.

The times I gave are specific times calculated out based on the scenario I described, not guesstimates.

It's 0-10 minutes, not 10-20 minutes, waiting for a bus, because if the bus comes every 10 minutes, when you arrive at the bus stop either the next bus is just arriving [[0 minutes), or the last bus just left [[10 full minutes for the next one). It's 5-10 minutes, not 20 minutes, to take the bus from Huntington Woods because that's how long it takes. It's not 20 minutes transferring to another bus, because in this scenario you're transferring to the metro in Royal Oak.

20 minutes is not a plausible time to get from a station to your destination. It would be a 6 minute walk to One Campus Martius from RPTC where I would imagine the new line would branch from. Stay on the train for 5 minutes longer to get to the Ren Cen station. 1 more minute and a 3 minute walk to BCBS. Driving through the winding streets to your specific garage, driving up the ramps, parking, walking to and taking the elevator, and then walking a few blocks to your office building takes time too. If you reread my post I did say "walking/parking" but I didn't dwell on it because I figured they'd both be about the same on average. But of course sitting on a train playing with your phone is more fun than driving around downtown.

Also, "Nice bus shelter" ? Where are those? I know they have them in some places in NY or DC, but do we have any here? Like covered, heated? Like they do for the people mover? Mostly I see people standing on the side of the road, and the only evidence there's a bus stop there is a sign nailed to a telephone pole.

By nice I mean that there's a shelter which is big enough for a group of riders to non-awkwardly stand in. It would have lighting, up to date maps and schedules, clear signage, bicycle parking, trash/recyclable bins. There would be pavement leading from the sidewalk to the shelter and road curb so that you don't have to walk on grass/snow. Consistent snow removal. Depending on the location there might be some landscaping or streetscaping.

[Jason]

No specifics, but in general where do you live, Jason?

East side suburb.

[K-slice]

Thought I would bring this thread back to life as, anecdotally, the Q Line certainly seems to be "back" this summer.

I ride it maybe one or twice a week, but see it daily while walking around town, and one thing I always focus on is ridership. I gotta say, apart from when it first opened, I have never seen the Q so busy! When I ride, there is usually no place to sit it's so full. Fine with me, I prefer to stand anyways.

And I'll tell you, it doesn't appear to be just bums on there either. I see people in scrubs, office attire, what appear to be college students, and of course some bums. But it almost looks like a real transit system from the inside.

I'll really be watching for the ridership numbers to come out, but I bet 2023 is going to be the best year yet for the system.

Any other transit minded people noticing this?

[DetroitSoldier]

I'm with you. I ride it 2 to 3 times a week for everything from picking up lunch to getting to the VA hospital for appointments. I think it's providing an important service right now for residents who live near Woodward and getting a good amount of downtown hotel guests to the cultural center area.

But for this to continue, the system must remain free. It's a sacrifice that will have to be made for the ancillary payoff that was hoped for. There is no way ridership remains high if people have to pay for it. DC Streetcar through the H street corridor should be the goal.

[drjeff]

I work near Canfield and Woodward and walk by the stops there on a daily basis. There are always people waiting to ride in both directions. I have also observed it is more crowded when I ride it myself.

[Rocket]

Are they ever going to release ridership numbers?

I remember reading years ago that even though it was private, that under some agreement with the City they had to release ridership numbers at least once a year.

But I can't find anything for the last 3-4 years.

BridgeDetroit reports that ridership is up this summer from about 2,000 a day to 2,450 ish a day. [Although a summer bump is expected].

But even that is just half of what was expected, and of course they haven't resumed charging fares.

What needs to be done to get the 4,000 - 5,000 paying riders a day?

[K-slice]

Axios last reported on their annual report in October of 22, so I expect we'll see another report in a couple months.

Continued development along the corridor it runs will help, as will the elimination of cheap surface parking in downtown.

[stasu1213]

The Q-line wait time had increased over the past years. The arrival time map screen are blank at a few stations in Midtown. Detroit will probably have the lack of decent mass transit curse unless the mindset change.

[Rocket]

The Q-line wait time had increased over the past years. The arrival time map screen are blank at a few stations in Midtown. Detroit will probably have the lack of decent mass transit curse unless the mindset change.

^ That's a big problem. We and City Council need to remember this in future discussions.

If they can't get a 3.5 mile section to work well with $5 million a year in federal subsidies, HOW ON EARTH will they get it to work right if it gets expanded to 8-mile or Pontiac with no subsidies?

It's pretty obvious that it would become a $20 - $50 million a year drain on Detroit's budget.

[K-slice]

The Q-line wait time had increased over the past years. The arrival time map screen are blank at a few stations in Midtown. Detroit will probably have the lack of decent mass transit curse unless the mindset change.

I mean, those claims are both wrong, but whatever.

[Jason]

The FTA has their transit agency profiles, but the most recent year is only 2021. https://www.transit.dot.gov/ntd/transit-agency-profiles I'll be curious to see more recent years as well.

QLine [[in millions)
2021 - 0.006
2020 - 0.4
2019 - 1.1

People Mover
2021 - 0
2020 - 0.9
2019 - 1.7

DDOT
2021 - 8.8
2020 - 18.7
2019 - 22.7

SMART
2021 - 3.2
2020 - 7.6
2019 - 9.0

[KnnNike]

^ That's a big problem. We and City Council need to remember this in future discussions.

If they can't get a 3.5 mile section to work well with $5 million a year in federal subsidies, HOW ON EARTH will they get it to work right if it gets expanded to 8-mile or Pontiac with no subsidies?

It's pretty obvious that it would become a $20 - $50 million a year drain on Detroit's budget.

The Q-Line in its current form will never go to 8-mile or Pontiac. This is a streetcar system; for those distances, you would need proper light rail.

[Rocket]

The Q-Line in its current form will never go to 8-mile or Pontiac. This is a streetcar system; for those distances, you would need proper light rail.

Very true.

I mentioned it because historically, our city councils and much of our citizenry hasn't been smart enough to understand that, and has preceded ahead anyway [such as the Q-Line].

And it's been discussed at length in DYes how it needs to be extended.