How do y'all deal with service redlining from suburban contractors?

[KnnNike]

I just bought a house in Rivertown and I'm looking to do a variety of deferred maintenance and restoration tasks. Unfortunately I'm having a number of instances where various contractors [[e.g. firewood, heating/cooling, flooring) claim not to service my area. These guys are all no more than 15 or 20 minutes from my house, and their 'service areas' extend 30+ minutes into the outer 'burbs. It's pretty clear to me that some combination of racism/overblown fears of safety is keeping them out of the city [[one guy told me he services all of metro Detroit except Detroit and Pontiac...like, wtf). I should add that I am a white male, and have only communicated with these people via phone or email.

Has anyone else experienced this? How do y'all handle it? I'm not from the area, and while I've heard about some city/suburb animosity here, what I've repeatedly experienced just blows my mind. And it's doubly bad, because unfortunately not many qualified contractors are willing to locate inside the city to begin with.

[DetroitSoldier]

I have only had one issue with this in 16 years. Recently a contractor asked my zip code and then told me that they do not service this area. I went back to the same contractor a few months later. Instead of telling them the zip code I told them the name of the neighborhood. They came out and gave me an estimate and bid on the project. I don't know what the process was behind their first decision. But the appeal of a neighborhood name compared to a broad zip code may help.

[Richard]

First and formost finding a good contractor or even handy man anywhere in the country is a challenge.

Not sure about your local situation but I can give you some insight based on being a former building contractor and now I do service in another field.

Yes there are groups that I will not do or did not do work for.

It was not redlining it was experience and business decisions,quite simple really.

For every ten that wanted you to do work for them at a reduced cost there were always 2 that were willing to pay the price where you made the same amount of money doing 2 jobs verses 10.

It also depends on ones approach when contacting or speaking to a contractor,if you are coming across as looking for the cheapest deal then most will not waste time.

Also if contractors are backed up like they are now in most places,they can pick and choose jobs,when you are backed up with work and a call comes in you jack the rate up so high that the person says screw it to expensive but some will still say okay.

It also depends on your location,if somebody calls about getting $20,000 dollars worth of work on a house in a neighborhood that is well known that nobody spends that kind of money on a house,nobody is going to waste their time even bidding on that.

To write a proper detailed estimate it is 2 to 3 hours of time.

The worst is buying a house in a neighborhood that is going through regenifcation because they are usually in neighborhoods that are well known for not having the funds to spend.

Its not redlining its businesses that have learned in the past.

In your case you may do better looking for referrals from people that you know,looking for referrals online etc.

When I first started I advertised the first year and never spent a dime on advertising after that,it was all word of mouth.

Its no difference though in ordering pizza,a lot of businesses do not cover certain areas for whatever reason.

Most contractors are closed click,just keep asking around,you will end up finding one from a referral from a friend of a friend.

[KnnNike]

First and formost finding a good contractor or even handy man anywhere in the country is a challenge.

Not sure about your local situation but I can give you some insight based on being a former building contractor and now I do service in another field.

Yes there are groups that I will not do or did not do work for.

It was not redlining it was experience and business decisions,quite simple really.

For every ten that wanted you to do work for them at a reduced cost there were always 2 that were willing to pay the price where you made the same amount of money doing 2 jobs verses 10.

It also depends on ones approach when contacting or speaking to a contractor,if you are coming across as looking for the cheapest deal then most will not waste time.

Also if contractors are backed up like they are now in most places,they can pick and choose jobs,when you are backed up with work and a call comes in you jack the rate up so high that the person says screw it to expensive but some will still say okay.

It also depends on your location,if somebody calls about getting $20,000 dollars worth of work on a house in a neighborhood that is well known that nobody spends that kind of money on a house,nobody is going to waste their time even bidding on that.

To write a proper detailed estimate it is 2 to 3 hours of time.

The worst is buying a house in a neighborhood that is going through regenifcation because they are usually in neighborhoods that are well known for not having the funds to spend.

Its not redlining its businesses that have learned in the past.

In your case you may do better looking for referrals from people that you know,looking for referrals online etc.

When I first started I advertised the first year and never spent a dime on advertising after that,it was all word of mouth.

Its no difference though in ordering pizza,a lot of businesses do not cover certain areas for whatever reason.

Most contractors are closed click,just keep asking around,you will end up finding one from a referral from a friend of a friend.

In all 3 cases so far, I simply stated the city I lived in and was met with "sorry, we don't service" there. One business was in Oak Park, another in Ferndale, and another in Taylor.

Your logic is sound, but is not remotely describing my situation.

[Meddle]

How do y'all handle it?

And it's doubly bad, because unfortunately not many qualified contractors are willing to locate inside the city to begin with.

Perhaps it's your definition of 'qualified'?

Torques me off when somebody admittedly 'not from the area' wants to hire somebody 'not from the area' and send their money to somewhere 'not from the area'.

[Wesley Mouch]

Sad that you have to go to the 'burbs' to find a 'qualified' contractor. Think about why suburban contractors don't want to work in Detroit, and why there aren't enough local entrepreneurs to fill your needs. [[Hint, its mostly not racism).

The long-term solution is to remove the impediments to working in the City.

1) Reduce crime, increase police funding and ignore BLM [[and all other racists).

2) Eliminate city income tax in Detroit and Pontiac [[and Hamtramck).

3) Allow diversity in education [[non-DPS), and acknowledge that DPS and the Teacher's Union are part of the problem, not the solution.

If you remove these problems, you'll go a long way towards

[ct_alum]

Sad that you have to go to the 'burbs' to find a 'qualified' contractor. Think about why suburban contractors don't want to work in Detroit, and why there aren't enough local entrepreneurs to fill your needs. [[Hint, its mostly not racism).

The long-term solution is to remove the impediments to working in the City.

1) Reduce crime, increase police funding and ignore BLM [[and all other racists).

2) Eliminate city income tax in Detroit and Pontiac [[and Hamtramck).

3) Allow diversity in education [[non-DPS), and acknowledge that DPS and the Teacher's Union are part of the problem, not the solution.

If you remove these problems, you'll go a long way towards

I'll take your advice and ignore all racists, which means that I will ignore all of your future posts.

[bust]

I'll take your advice and ignore all racists, which means that I will ignore all of your future posts.

I learned within my first year here at DYes that if you pick apart his posts with an understanding where he's coming from light can mostly only be found in the counterpoints to his arguments.

But that's frustrating, and takes work. Ignoring may be a better strategy.

[Satiricalivory]

[[Hint, its mostly not racism).

It's entirely racism, there's no reason a contractor shouldn't service Detroit or Pontiac. I've dealt with properties in Pontiac and there aren't people waiting in the shadows to commit crime against you.

There should really be some legal repercussions with this "contractor redlining" bullshit.

[intelligentBeing]

Sad that you have to go to the 'burbs' to find a 'qualified' contractor. Think about why suburban contractors don't want to work in Detroit, and why there aren't enough local entrepreneurs to fill your needs. [[Hint, its mostly not racism).

The long-term solution is to remove the impediments to working in the City.

1) Reduce crime, increase police funding and ignore BLM [[and all other racists).

2) Eliminate city income tax in Detroit and Pontiac [[and Hamtramck).

3) Allow diversity in education [[non-DPS), and acknowledge that DPS and the Teacher's Union are part of the problem, not the solution.

If you remove these problems, you'll go a long way towards

Well said!

[KnnNike]

Perhaps it's your definition of 'qualified'?

Torques me off when somebody admittedly 'not from the area' wants to hire somebody 'not from the area' and send their money to somewhere 'not from the area'.

You can kiss my you-know-what. I'm as big a champion for this city as anyone, I'm sorry that my existence here is short so far. I have complicated needs that need to be done on my property, and I have spent hours searching for qualified contractors, **who also have good reviews**, and many areas require looking out past the city limits. I'm not going to debate you on this point. I also use many local contractors...my auto mechanic is over on the east side, my barber is in midtown, and my housekeeper lives in Mexicantown.

I live in this city, work in this city, pay all of the ridiculous taxes in this city, and talk this city up wherever I go. Get off your high horse.

[masterblaster]

You can kiss my you-know-what. I'm as big a champion for this city as anyone, I'm sorry that my existence here is short so far. I have complicated needs that need to be done on my property, and I have spent hours searching for qualified contractors, **who also have good reviews**, and many areas require looking out past the city limits. I'm not going to debate you on this point. I also use many local contractors...my auto mechanic is over on the east side, my barber is in midtown, and my housekeeper lives in Mexicantown.

I live in this city, work in this city, pay all of the ridiculous taxes in this city, and talk this city up wherever I go. Get off your high horse.

Over the years, we've come to know this poster, Meddle, lives in Mississippi, and a few years ago, admitted he/she hasn't stepped foot in the city of Detroit since 1988 - yes, when Michael Dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen were on the Democratic Presidential Ticket. That poster has no basis for criticizing you.

I had the same problem about 12 years ago, I needed a tall maple tree in my backyard removed, as the roots were infiltrating into the sewer line and causing basement sewage back-ups. I called a contractor whose facility in Redford [[Six Mile/Beech Daly) was less than 7 miles from my house on the far west side of Detroit.. They said "we don't work in that area".

If you need plaster work done, you can call the Plasterer's Union directly.

[Meddle]

Over the years, we've come to know this poster, Meddle, lives in Mississippi, and a few years ago, admitted he/she hasn't stepped foot in the city of Detroit since 1988 -

Incorrect. Twice.

[Hamtragedy]

I see your plight. I screen location on my calls and usually put an "x" if they say Novi, Macomb, or farmington hills, because those newer houses aren't up my alley and I prefer to grab materials from my trusted city based suppliers or the big boxes on my way, and have the back-roads mastered to avoid suburban traffic. That being said, my first question in Detroit is "does anyone live in the house?" because having to pack up tools each night really does suck and takes an hour or more. Yup, I've lost my share of tools overnight and do work in Detroit all the time.

It's also a question of price. I do have clients that "subsidize" other clients who might not otherwise be able to pay my going rate. Certain clients also get a markup on materials while others do not based on the ability to afford it.

I also look at the historic significance of the house and the building materials. If someone wants that old bathroom without a crack in the floor demoed because they don't like the color, I warn them that the original bath has several tons of concrete and the demo could easily hit 2-3 grand based on how many times I have to make a dump run. I advise them that they may even have historic tile [[not pewabic) and find a solution to love the old bath. And if someone wants an open floor plan that destroys decorative plaster, I may not be your guy. Also add permits, if you want to go that route. I mean really add....BSED will slow down the time and scheduling based on what is being done, moreso than the burbs.

Finally there's the ongoing education. I'll do a small job first to get my foot in the door, educate the client what is going on and what the potential pitfalls are of a 1915 house. If someone decides to start a job because my quote was too high and had someone else do jacked-up plumbing work that looks like crap, or run dangerous/insufficient wiring, I'll entertain for a second before I block you on my phone. I'm slammed for the last 15 years, and that estimate/proposal really was thought out based on experience, and the several hours it took me to prepare didn't impress the first time. Not to say I haven't put out fires, but now the budget is depressed even further.

I also warn everyone new in the city to be wary of contractors taking a bunch of loot up front beyond materials for the first week. I've gotten those calls from Indian Village and BE because they're out 7 grand and their front porch/bathroom/handmade kitchen cabinets are in a pile, and the collateral damage in the unaffected rooms is off the charts, and now the destroyer wants more to "begin" work.

Having worked on a ton of Detroit houses and most neighborhoods since the mid 80s [[DPS grad here who worked in some seedy-assed apartment complexes in my youth), I've seen lots. There are some true artists out there in the their own trades who work in the city all the time. There's also a ton of scumbags. Don't let the fancy truck fool you either, as that's a target for thieves and I know a lot of professionals who drive beaters. The big talkers are just that, and some have been drinkin to look at your job. Nope.

Be outgoing, ask around to neibhgobrs, especially the elderly ones with the nice house, or contractors doing work in your area.

[KnnNike]

I see your plight. I screen location on my calls and usually put an "x" if they say Novi, Macomb, or farmington hills, because those newer houses aren't up my alley and I prefer to grab materials from my trusted city based suppliers or the big boxes on my way, and have the back-roads mastered to avoid suburban traffic. That being said, my first question in Detroit is "does anyone live in the house?" because having to pack up tools each night really does suck and takes an hour or more. Yup, I've lost my share of tools overnight and do work in Detroit all the time.

It's also a question of price. I do have clients that "subsidize" other clients who might not otherwise be able to pay my going rate. Certain clients also get a markup on materials while others do not based on the ability to afford it.

I also look at the historic significance of the house and the building materials. If someone wants that old bathroom without a crack in the floor demoed because they don't like the color, I warn them that the original bath has several tons of concrete and the demo could easily hit 2-3 grand based on how many times I have to make a dump run. I advise them that they may even have historic tile [[not pewabic) and find a solution to love the old bath. And if someone wants an open floor plan that destroys decorative plaster, I may not be your guy. Also add permits, if you want to go that route. I mean really add....BSED will slow down the time and scheduling based on what is being done, moreso than the burbs.

Finally there's the ongoing education. I'll do a small job first to get my foot in the door, educate the client what is going on and what the potential pitfalls are of a 1915 house. If someone decides to start a job because my quote was too high and had someone else do jacked-up plumbing work that looks like crap, or run dangerous/insufficient wiring, I'll entertain for a second before I block you on my phone. I'm slammed for the last 15 years, and that estimate/proposal really was thought out based on experience, and the several hours it took me to prepare didn't impress the first time. Not to say I haven't put out fires, but now the budget is depressed even further.

I also warn everyone new in the city to be wary of contractors taking a bunch of loot up front beyond materials for the first week. I've gotten those calls from Indian Village and BE because they're out 7 grand and their front porch/bathroom/handmade kitchen cabinets are in a pile, and the collateral damage in the unaffected rooms is off the charts, and now the destroyer wants more to "begin" work.

Having worked on a ton of Detroit houses and most neighborhoods since the mid 80s [[DPS grad here who worked in some seedy-assed apartment complexes in my youth), I've seen lots. There are some true artists out there in the their own trades who work in the city all the time. There's also a ton of scumbags. Don't let the fancy truck fool you either, as that's a target for thieves and I know a lot of professionals who drive beaters. The big talkers are just that, and some have been drinkin to look at your job. Nope.

Be outgoing, ask around to neibhgobrs, especially the elderly ones with the nice house, or contractors doing work in your area.

I appreciate the well-elicited response here. I'm a little chafed when I hear about being charged a different amount for a job just because I "look like I can afford it", but the rest of the info is very helpful. I also don't do anything -- ever -- without a signed contract, and I would never hand over money up front for a promise of work to be completed.

With that said, I want to get fair and honest pricing as much as the next guy...anything I can do [[in your opinion) to come off less like someone that you would want to overcharge?

[bust]

KnnNike, as a neutral observer and rarely a matchmaker, I've never met Hamtragedy let alone hired him, but everything he just wrote made a lot of sense. And based on years of reading what he's posted here, I suggest you should ask him for a quote.

There are also a few here who seem to be or who seem to know local architects. You may be able to find good referrals from them too.

[KnnNike]

Agreed :-)

[EastsideAl]

My parents, who lived in the city all of their lives, often ran into this problem, as did I when I have lived in my own place in Detroit. We would even regularly run into people who would say they were going to take the job or give us an estimate but then wouldn't show up once they figured out where we lived. Sometimes they were right out front with their racism in explaining why they wouldn't come.

The problem was so pervasive for a while from the mid '70s to the '00s that folks in Indian Village shared lists of contractors who would work in our area. When I lived in Woodbridge it was nearly impossible to get anyone decent from outside to come there, and most work was done via a network of neighborhood handymen.

The big trick was to link into the networks around folks like Hamtragedy. Many of those people were real artisans who loved older houses and often lived in or near the city. But they weren't the kind of contractors who had ads in the Yellow Pages [[showing my age here), and even though they worked primarily on word of mouth, they were often too busy to take anything on in a timely fashion.

[Richard]

To make it worse there is a skilled trade shortage,even more so those with the knowledge and experience with working on old homes.

Most were custom built even down to the windows.

The younger generation contractors seem to have the tear it down because it is old,mostly because they present a challenge.

Most of the contractors that you may have been calling probably deal with cookie cutter homes so it is probably better that they do not come by,you will know when you find the right fit and when you do it will be a better fit you and your house long term.

Sorry you disliked my post and felt it was not even remotely relating to your situation,sense you want to dwell on the redlining aspect without any other insight then okay I will agree with you,everybody is a racist and that is the reason you cannot find a contractor.

Welcome to the world of homeownership and vintage homes,but it appears that you are more interested in a discussion about redlining in Detroit verses an actual solution or understanding towards it.

[KnnNike]

To make it worse there is a skilled trade shortage,even more so those with the knowledge and experience with working on old homes.

Most were custom built even down to the windows.

The younger generation contractors seem to have the tear it down because it is old,mostly because they present a challenge.

Most of the contractors that you may have been calling probably deal with cookie cutter homes so it is probably better that they do not come by,you will know when you find the right fit and when you do it will be a better fit you and your house long term.

Sorry you disliked my post and felt it was not even remotely relating to your situation,sense you want to dwell on the redlining aspect without any other insight then okay I will agree with you,everybody is a racist and that is the reason you cannot find a contractor.

Welcome to the world of homeownership and vintage homes,but it appears that you are more interested in a discussion about redlining in Detroit verses an actual solution or understanding towards it.

I don't share the opinion that everyone is a racist, and that's not why I said your response wasn't relevant... You seemed to be under the impression that people were refusing to take the work after a discussion and understanding of the complexity... This was not the case, the people just don't want to set foot in the city. I'm sorry that it came off a little brusque.

I felt your latest response was condescending and unnecessarily sarcastic.

[bust]

KnnNike, as a neutral observer and rarely a matchmaker, I've never met Richard let alone hired him [[he's never stepped foot in Detroit), would I ever. But the prolific body of opinion he's "put" here for at least the past 6 years leads me to suggest you parse his motivations to find their opposite truth, in so much as a way forward can be discerned by them. Better yet, much easier: ignore him.

[Richard]

KnnNike, as a neutral observer and rarely a matchmaker, I've never met Richard let alone hired him [[he's never stepped foot in Detroit), would I ever. But the prolific body of opinion he's "put" here for at least the past 6 years leads me to suggest you parse his motivations to find their opposite truth, in so much as a way forward can be discerned by them. Better yet, much easier: ignore him.

So as usual you are telling somebody to do as you say and not as you do.

You left the city when it needed you the most and then came back after everybody else did their part and now is the savior?

Seriously given the choice of Detroit,no matter how bad it was for NYC ?

It explains a lot.

You still need to close the gap of what you think verses what you actually know,there is a help section with easy to follow directions on how to block users,you are welcome to follow your own advice,unless it is to complicated for you to follow those directions,but if you ask I am sure somebody would be willing to take you by the little hand and walk you through it.

[Dumpling]

Kind of as an add-on to Hamtragedy's point about packing up
his/her tools from the vacant house, the contractors who installed
the new furnace and A/C did send a large group of people
[[five, counting the owner/supervisor) with an intention of
installing the new system within one day which they did
accomplish.

Whether it was due to a desire to provide excellent customer
service or fear of major theft or both I couldn't say for sure.

[Hamtragedy]

Kind of as an add-on to Hamtragedy's point about packing up
his/her tools from the vacant house, the contractors who installed
the new furnace and A/C did send a large group of people
[[five, counting the owner/supervisor) with an intention of
installing the new system within one day which they did
accomplish.

Whether it was due to a desire to provide excellent customer
service or fear of major theft or both I couldn't say for sure.

Yup, those guys are out there. And they send every truck out they have. Bam! Done in one day. And the work is awesome. I've seen them stay till 11 at night before.

I wish I could find a enough reliable staff to knock stuff out in a day. For now I'm a one man operation and even small projects take a few days. Hell, it just took me a solid week to rip out a 1920s leaking shower pan [[ONLY) because of the surgery required to not damage extra tiles, not make the 60 pound lead pan friable [[airborn), remove the 6 inches of concrete from the floor and the three inches of the concrete from the wall. All while trying not to damage the decorative plaster in the foyer below. And not cover the house [[and my lungs) with silica dust. Five of those hours were spent covering the surrounding floors with ramboard and half the house in plastic. Nothing like damaging a freshly coated oak floor, [[which I may or may not have done myself, only to get a call three weeks later that the shitty plumber they hired gouged the crap out of). Or worse, damaging historic tile elsewhere in the house.

Even the respective artists in their trades I utilize rarely get stuff done in a day. And these old houses really don't allow you to get out of there that quickly. There's just not enough room in some of those bathrooms for more than one person working at a time.

But if someone's at the house overnight, I'm fine leaving tools. But the client is usually aware their house might be a construction zone for a bit. I also deal with emergencies for a long list of regulars and those I usually knock out in a couple hours in the morning on the way in.

If I can make one suggestion: ONE ROOM / PROJECT AT A TIME! Don't start tearing into multiple rooms and expect them all to be done by next week when your wife moves in.

Basic rules apply:

If you want it cheap and fast, it won't be good.
If you want it cheap and good, it won't be fast.
If you want it good and fast, it won't be cheap.

[Dumpling]

Yeah, some contractors say "no" to money!

I am white. I was born within the city limits in the fifties.
By 1960 my out-state parents had purchased a home in
Royal Oak, and this is where I grew up, where we attended
the Roman Catholic St. Mary's church, which is where
Father Cunningham, who went on to help found Focus:Hope,
was a pastor, and they are still living in that house to this
day.

Last summer, my A/C went out in the Detroit house I
purchased in 2007. Then I decided that it was time for
a new furnace as well as a new A/C. A business in the
family was sold at about the same time and I received
some of the proceeds so I was able to pay cash up front
for the job.

I contacted a Livonia firm that was a descendant of a
Livonia firm that was recommended by a friend of mine.
However I was told that they don't do Detroit. So I
went to Yelp and left them a one star review there.

I located a review for a nearby contractor, who lived
in Detroit and advertised as doing work in the
neighborhood I lived in, and set up an appointment.
But he did not show up for the appointment and did
not pick up his phone and did not call and try to set
up another time. It was a very hot August day to be
sure - a good day to explore other life options besides
contractor work. Or he could have been slammed.

Then I called the number for the contractor that was
attached to the old furnace when it was installed sometime
in the eighties or nineties. That contractor is no longer
working, but his business was bought out by a different
firm, and that Livonia firm sent workers out to put in a
new furnace and air conditioner. But if they were to tell
me they don't do Detroit, then I had the option to put a
one star review for them on Yelp. [[I am overdue to leave a
five star review because they did come and do the job
in Detroit and did do good work).

The next contractor I would have tried would also be in
Detroit and was highly rated by several reviewers, one of
whom noted the excellent work done on some ancient
DPS systems.

I guess something that happens is when one suburban
firm says they don't do Detroit, the prospective customer
doesn't call other suburban firms next, they go to firms
that they think will operate in Detroit.