Voter Fraud in Detroit?

[Zacha341]

Duly noted Bust, I get to what you said in parts, as I am an independent - not ever-carrying the water for either party.

Likewise, the Dem party that is to say Classical Liberalism for some, has ALSO changed as now greatly infiltrated by the far left [[with their own enthusiastic "boys" and "girls" at the ready too)!

This made manifest and hugely justified by the urgency to remove Trump, and set agenda that can readily justify much under the repudiation-of-all-things-Trump umbrella.

This will be proven by what the Harris/ Biden presidency push forth policy-wise as they come online to re-cast social culture and policy here in Michigan and Detroit. The easy-read, default view will find their new policies will be considered most expedient.

After all, they can reference Trump as justification to mandate said changes for at least the first year while emotion and impetus remains high.

But some aspects of this new administrations agenda may raise the concerns of even the most Democratic, devoted Detroiter's.

I say this as many Black people tend to be our own [[not easy to check-off as right-winged) brand of conservative, without being Repubs [[or having ever voted for Trump) on many levels. Such as, in regards to religion and family. Areas to which we still retain some cultural and political commitments.

Much of the far left detest religion [[particularly Christianity), and the traditional family. Righteously branding such as, ewww, uh 'patriotic', provincial, and privileged 'whiteness' as they call it [[ignoring their own privilege, ironically) that must be jettisoned! Preferring government holy writ - they plan to author.

Good times! As Black people are once again captive audience to much of this thinking, and policy mandates on our, eh, umm 'behalf'.

Again, the new progressive Democratic party in certain factions is no longer the party of the Traditional Liberal who decried heavy handed government, and had a healthy suspicion of big government. Todays far left too often wants ever-more government control of what you do and say.

The same control as demanded by the far right [[what an irony!).

The radical left within the party think they were given a mandate, but not just quite. In Detroit there may be just a tad of push back.

For example: Along the lines or racial injustice [[which I am NOT denying) the far left within the Dem party is counting on the black community and other POC to ally with them - broad stroke WITHOUT question or critique.

But they are forgetting that our core values and interests may not exactly line up as assumed.

Especially as we exam the civil rights movement here in the Detroit and what our priorities are - which are different to what they are in say Seattle or LA.

And we're [[Black people) a bit fed up of being handled in general, without even being asked what are our priorities beyond the Dem status quo and content of their progressive agenda.

Additionally, moderates [[for the sake of ADDITIONAL diverse thought and inclusion) within the Dem party will push back just a tad too. They will tire of being told how bad, and dumb they are. Perhaps.

As I said before, this was an election of VERY poor choices. Again, I'm just hoping we Detroiters [[keeping this thread local) don't end up with 'buyers [[or captive audience) remorse'.

...Republicans today are certainly no longer the party of Lincoln, no matter how much some try to capitalize on that. Not since Goldwater, if not before. Since Trump it's gotten ridiculous. They've become the party of the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, and QAnon. Lots of "boys" [["bois", haha sp?) in there, if also some girls [[goirls?) as dumb as they are. At least McCain and Romney were decent and honorable, and didn't trade in racism and conspiracy theories.

[SammyS]

Whichever way you lean regarding voter fraud, we must keep in mind that news of rampant, obvious and widespread voter fraud have circled the globe many times over placing Michigan and Detroit at its epicenter. This is not good PR for us especially in light of the progress the city has made over the past 10 years; not to mention, our reliance on new money to continue the rebuild. If we lose confidence, we lose momentum. If we lose integrity, we lose trust. Investment frowns on uncertainly.
If there is no evidence of fraud, then I will play my part to ensure as many people as possible understand that but where it currently stands, the jury is still out and unfortunately, my efforts will likely fall on deaf ears.
My advice to everyone is simple. Washington doesn’t care, California doesn’t care, no one should care more about Detroits reputation than its own residents. We after all must live with the fallout whichever way this goes. So I say, don’t love the “party” more than the city and certainly don’t hate Trump more than you love Detroit.

[Gistok]

^ I think you are being overly sensitive to how much people believe the Dumpster. Philadelphia and Georgia and Maricopa County AZ are more in the limelight. Detroit's reputation is only in trouble with the MAGA crowd... who thinks that all mail-in votes are fraudulent because that was what they were told to believe... Much ado about nothing as for Detroit's voting reputation.

[ABetterDetroit]

They can’t even read let alone count. Problem is how do you weed out harvested and illegitimate votes and prove those are bad?
I would really like to see the whole thing redone and ONLY in person with proper ID. I think this angle would be fair and catch em
with their pants down! Are there really that many people brainwashed into thinking Trump is a bad guy? So bad anyone [[senile old man) is better?

A do-over using the data from the election and only use the voting method where your candidate might do better? Are we supposed to believe if mail ins favored the lying reality TV salesman and Biden won the election with the in-person that you wouldn’t all be screaming that mail in is really how the election should be run with the pandemic and all and that is how the do-over should be done? Give us a break.

The far right [[in this case) and the far left can equally threaten democracy. Look around the world, when either takes over permanently everything goes to absolute shit. Democracy is the best thing going by far. Lets try to keep it a while longer. A habitual liar running a cult of his own personality is not worth fucking up how we elect leaders forever.

[oladub]

^ I think you are being overly sensitive to how much people believe the Dumptster. Philadelphia and Georgia and Maricopa County AZ are more in the limelight. Detroit's reputation is only in trouble with the MAGA crowd... who thinks that all mail-in votes are fraudulent because that was what they were told to believe... Much ado about nothing as for Detroit's voting reputation.

The "Dumpster"? How about Basement Biden and Commie-la for balance? I do agree though that Detroit is not at the top of the list of possible voter fraud sites. I've voted with absentee ballots twice this year whatever you imagine I've been told to believe. I'm not above asking questions though. According to the article, "The suit contains affidavits from five poll workers and one employee of the City of Detroit who allege they witnessed election fraud during the votes' processing and counting." Either they are all lying or Detroit's attorney is correct in reassuring us of "baseless allegations, trying to undermine confidence in a well-run election". Attorney Fink even provided an unsubstantiated motive. Given that six people stuck their necks out and signed affidavits, I'm more inclined to believe them than Detroit's paid counsel.

[Henry Whalley]

I'm more inclined to believe them than Detroit's paid counsel.

Send at least $8,001 to the Official Election Defense Fund.

[Gistok]

The "Dumpster"? How about Basement Biden and Commie-la for balance?

Sorry Oladub... but he's used name calling during his entire presidency... [[Pocahantas, Lyin' Ted Cruz, Little Marco Rubio, Sleepy Joe, etc...) that any decorum or respect for his office few out the window long ago...

[Richard]

Late on election night, the NY Times gave a 95% chance of Trump winning Michigan. This is a very high confidence, but for whatever reason they decided not to call it for Trump. Then suddenly in the middle of the night the election suddenly swung for Biden. How was the NY Times so wrong? Or what happened that their 95% confidence in Trump winning Michigan turned into a Biden victory. Something does not pass the smell test.

So now that they are reading the data streams,which are public record they are finding what is going on with the dominion machines.

In Pennsylvania alone in a 1 minute time frame Trump lost 17,000 votes while Biden gained 17,000 votes with only 54 new votes being registered.

So the software flipped the votes from Trump to Biden.

542,181 switched from Trump to Biden with a total of 2,865,805 system wide so far.

[Zacha341]

Thumbs up for this! We'll need to watch the incoming administration as much as the out-going. Particularly as there can easily be a move to put forth all forms of policy and processes, excused or not vetted at the behest [[in this case) of repudiating all things resembling Trump, or judged to resemble.

I'm not particularly favoring the 100% winner-take-all position without critique or push-back - any less than was applied to the out-going administration.

The far right [[in this case) and the far left can equally threaten democracy. Look around the world, when either takes over permanently everything goes.... Democracy is the best thing going by far. Lets try to keep it a while longer.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

So now that they are reading the data streams,which are public record they are finding what is going on with the dominion machines.

In Pennsylvania alone in a 1 minute time frame Trump lost 17,000 votes while Biden gained 17,000 votes with only 54 new votes being registered.

So the software flipped the votes from Trump to Biden.

542,181 switched from Trump to Biden with a total of 2,865,805 system wide so far.

Nice try Richard.... There was no "Hanky Panky" going on with Dominion Machines, or any other for that matter. People were tired of TDS [[Trump Derangement Syndrome) and voted him out.

[Wesley Mouch]

The correct response to 'signed affidavits'...

We are 100% committed to fair and transparent elections, and we welcome challenges, and will actively help root out any fraud.

Wrong response: Signed affidavits = baseless claim, there's nothing to see here please move along.

[bust]

Thumbs up for this!

I also agree!

However, it's clear without a doubt Trump is far-right, and he coddles those who are um, let's say even far-righter, while Biden is a centrist whose instinct has always been to unify and seek bi-partisanship. In no way a mirror image, the reverse.

And Z, I appreciate your earlier thoughts. I hope you'll consider some responses.

It's not just Democrats whose economics have traditionally been grounded in a strong foundation of classical liberalism. It's the foundation of Republican economics too, maybe even more. For better and for worse it's been the core principle of American economics since our nation was founded. You probably know that but the way you presented it made it unclear.

Regarding your characterization of the "far left" detesting religion, be careful. That's been an effective rallying cry against them-- pushing the buttons of religious beliefs triggers emotion [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"), not those parts of our brain that put faith in facts. But the vast majority of the left does NOT detest religion. Many may not "religiously" follow a religion, but many do. And there are at least as many centrists, libertarians, and other right-wingers who don't either-- including several of our "founding fathers" [[many preferred the Ethical Society) and Trump [[though I hesitate to put him in the same sentence). Of course not all of them. Don't forget Biden has been a committed Christian his entire life.

At the risk of stepping further into that minefield, I'll do my best to characterize my own thoughts on religion, which I suggest are common among the left, and possibly even reflective some ways how the majority of us think here in Michigan and Detroit.

I deeply respect our right to practice religion. Any religion.
Equally important: our right to live free from the arbitrary constrictions of anyone else's religion.

For example, most controversially, I've never accidentally made a woman pregnant, but if I were in that situation I don't think I'd want her to have an abortion. Who would? Ok, some. But I don't believe it's a sin and I acknowledge there are cases when it's necessary or justified. And even if it's hard for me to imagine wanting that for myself [[um, I mean her), I'd never be so arrogant as to presume I know better than everyone else, especially not the pregnant woman [[THAT her). I could never support a law that prevented her from deciding herself what's best. That's pro-choice.

In other words, I refuse as strongly to impose my beliefs on others as I refuse to accept when anyone else attempts to impose theirs on us. Anything else may raise the concerns of even the most Republican, devoted Detroiters.

If someone believes abortion is a sin, that's her right, and I'd defend her right to refuse one. But if she tried to mandate every other woman do the same, I'd oppose. We should not impose our religious beliefs on others. Even more than classical liberalism, our liberty to be free from someone else's religion is a core principle of our nation since its start. Here in Detroit there may be just a tad of push back. [[Remember the thread complaining about the call to prayer in Hamtramck?)

So it follows... it's a person's right to believe we descend from Adam and Eve who were created by God at the dawn of the Universe 6000 years ago, that we descend from aliens, that there are innumerable Gods such as one with 8 arms and the head of an elephant, that we must never eat shrimp, that we must never eat meat, that we must never eat fish, the we must never cut our hair, that we must never drink alcohol, that we must never use fire thus electricity on the "holy day", that we must never wear v-neck shirts, that adulterers deserve to be publicly killed, or whatever. But that person does NOT have the right to mandate their beliefs on us.

I'm just hoping we Detroiters [[keeping this thread local) agree on that.

As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence? [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"???)

Maybe winning the lawsuits isn't the point:

Nessel: Trump election lawsuits aim to delegitimize Biden
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...den/114956510/

[oladub]

As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence?

Five poll workers and one employee of the City of Detroit signed affidavits alleging they witnessed election fraud. Are you suggesting that they are all liars? Why would the City of Detroit employee be risking his job opposing Detroit's legal councel who is paid to water down the allegations? Not related but did Detroit hire a Detroit resident as its legal councel?

The 6,000 vote Dominion voting machine glitch was also evidence that such problems happen. Dominion Voting Systems equipment [[is) used in 69 of Michigan’s 83 counties and dozens of states, along with third-party software from Election Source of Grand Rapids, which the GOP has claimed is used in 47 Michigan counties. Technically, this was not a 'glitch' as the official Dominion explanation is that the Antrim County Clerk failed to add an update. But I wonder if other clerks missed an update notice and how hard the Dominion update company worked and voting machine companies servicing Detroit worked to make sure all counties were onboard with updates. This would be a simple thing to look at.

There were also curious late at night vote dumps in Detroit which benefitted Biden. Since there are no demographic group that supported Biden by 92-99%, I'm curious how such lopsided clumps of votes could occur in Detroit. "You'll notice that after the massive 6:30am vote dump [[141258 Biden votes to 5968 Trump votes), nearly all swings in the counts came in multiples of around 5,500 at a time to benefit Biden. So of this late vote dump representing nearly 150,000 votes, Biden "received" a statistically impossible 96 percent.There was also an earlier [[11/4/2020 8:50:00Z) dump of around 60,000 votes that went 92 percent for Biden, as well as a later [[11/5/2020 13:34Z) one that was 99 percent."

[Meddle]

Why would the City of Detroit employee be risking his job opposing ...

I seem to remember a time when city employees [[with badges and guns) were stationed at Cobo intercepting ballot boxes for 'inspection' and only certain ones were allowed to pass.

[SammyS]

The correct response to 'signed affidavits'...

We are 100% committed to fair and transparent elections, and we welcome challenges, and will actively help root out any fraud.

Wrong response: Signed affidavits = baseless claim, there's nothing to see here please move along.

Right on. Biden supporters should be encouraging this, after all, what’s better than a win? Two wins.
This will all eventually come out in the wash. Let’s give the investigation a fair shake before drawing any conclusions. After all, this is the future of our country at stake.

[JonWylie]

Right on. Biden supporters should be encouraging this, after all, what’s better than a win? Two wins.
This will all eventually come out in the wash. Let’s give the investigation a fair shake before drawing any conclusions. After all, this is the future of our country at stake.

However, you don't get more than your single day in court unless there is some actually substance behind your claims. I don't think anyone believes they shouldn't be allowed in front of a judge, but many of those judges, thus far, have backed up the sentiment that these are baseless and frivolous claims.

So I think you can respect that they have a right to file lawsuits, while also confidently saying you believe they are baseless and frivolous. Even lawsuits with multiple affidavits have been thrown out at the first instance.

[SammyS]

However, you don't get more than your single day in court unless there is some actually substance behind your claims. I don't think anyone believes they shouldn't be allowed in front of a judge, but many of those judges, thus far, have backed up the sentiment that these are baseless and frivolous claims.

So I think you can respect that they have a right to file lawsuits, while also confidently saying you believe they are baseless and frivolous. Even lawsuits with multiple affidavits have been thrown out at the first instance.

I hear ya but I wish the DNC took that line over the Russian interference hoax.

If you have time, I’d recommend watching this

https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Against-...93LL/ref=nodl_

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
As far as the allegations they keep making, notice how they've NEVER provided any evidence? [["Blessed are they who believe who have not seen"???)

Affidavits are evidence. Someone swore an oath to the trust. Dozens or hundreds of people. Affidavits about fraud. Affidavits about access to watch the count.

That's evidence. Not proof. But absolutely evidence.

Swearing under oath is serious. And I suspect for a City employee claiming election fraud -- it'll be the end of their employment.

Do you think their City supervisor is going to warmly accept their insubordination, when fighting Trump by 'any means necessary' is a Holy War? One that they hope will provide urban funding for their jobs?
[/quote]

[Vic01]

affidavits are evidence. Someone swore an oath to the trust. Dozens or hundreds of people. Affidavits about fraud. Affidavits about access to watch the count.

That's evidence. Not proof. But absolutely evidence.

Swearing under oath is serious. And i suspect for a city employee claiming election fraud -- it'll be the end of their employment.

Do you think their city supervisor is going to warmly accept their insubordination, when fighting trump by 'any means necessary' is a holy war? One that they hope will provide urban funding for their jobs?

[/quote]

Wesley,

With all due respect, affidavits aren't evidence, they are a sworn statement of opinion. This is from the 11-13 decision of Wayne County Circuit Judge Timothy Kenny.

"The judge cast doubt on the affidavits of several GOP poll challengers who were present during the absentee counting process, writing that they had not attended an Oct. 29 walk through of operations at TCF Center and "did not have a full understanding" of the process".
"some affidavits by poll challengers alleging unsecured ballots or too many ballots cast for Biden were "rife with speculation" and showed they knew little about the counting process". It's likely that folks with no training or orientation on the actual processes which are used every election [[not just this one) would be suspicious of what were routine activities. That's why the orientation was offered... but some folks didn't bother to attend? Hmmm, makes me wonder if they had preconceived ideas of what they wanted to "witness" and didn't want facts or education getting in the way.
I know that I'd respect their "opinion" a lot more if they'd had the orientation, likely the Judge would have also.

[Wesley Mouch]

With all due respect, affidavits aren't evidence, they are a sworn statement of opinion.

My understanding is that they may [[or may not) be evidence depending on the use. You have a point, but it wasn't my main point.

People, some of whom are putting their employment at risk, were willing to write a sworn statement.

The judge's comments were that 'SOME' of the affidavits weren't up to snuff and showed lack of full understanding.

And in the end he's ruled against the argument. Probably the right decision.

That doesn't mean that all the poll-watchers are fools and idiots, nor that they are all uninformed.

Proving a solid process from start to finish is, IMO, the responsibility of the city clerk, and I've yet to hear an argument of quality -- only arguments of bad intentions from the challengers.

In the end, I hope this focus on how this unusual pandemic vote went leads to a more audible and transparent voting process for the future.

[Richard]

Well Wayne county is refusing to certify the vote,so next it goes to supervisor of elections then to the state legislature.

Why?

Because the law is clear,in order to provide a balanced election a representative from the R party,The D party and the Independent party are allowed to observe the counting of the ballots.

Based on witnesses,affidavits,and thanks to the media coverage the blocking and ejecting of the observers was widely documented.

MSNBCs response to the governor of Michigan was why are they blocking the African Americans voices at the polls.

I guess it is true then,if you did not vote for Biden you ain’t black,because no African Americans would even dream of voting Republican or independent.

My guess is if the shoe was on the other foot,we would be going through the exact same thing.

Dominion software was engineered in Venezuela under the Hugo Chavez regime and designed to ensure power retention.

A whistleblower that was on the security team in Venezuela at the time has said,there is a back door to the software and if he wanted to add a million votes he could.

Take software that was coded in Venezuela under a dictatorship in cooperation with the Chinese intelligence agency,where our tally’s are figured up on servers in Germany and Spain what could possibly go wrong?

The voting machines were built with Chinese parts totally against protocol where United States voting machines are to be manufactured in the United States outside the realm and possibility of foreign interference or intervention.

No voting machine used in the United States is to be connected to the internet while the voting process is ongoing in order to not be excessable to outside hacking.

That was the directives that came out of the whole Russian thing.

But yet the machines were updated useing usb flash drives,minutes before the process began causing glitches in the system.

At any rate and at this point who cares who actually won,because next time it could be used against the opposition in the same manner.

We spent 3 years and millions of dollars investigating the possibility of Russian intervention,we can sure do the same with this and we really need to.

[401don]

Well Wayne county is refusing to certify the vote,so next it goes to supervisor of elections then to the state legislature.

Why?

Because the law is clear,in order to provide a balanced election a representative from the R party,The D party and the Independent party are allowed to observe the counting of the ballots.

Based on witnesses,affidavits,and thanks to the media coverage the blocking and ejecting of the observers was widely documented.

MSNBCs response to the governor of Michigan was why are they blocking the African Americans voices at the polls.

I guess it is true then,if you did not vote for Biden you ain’t black,because no African Americans would even dream of voting Republican or independent.

My guess is if the shoe was on the other foot,we would be going through the exact same thing.

Dominion software was engineered in Venezuela under the Hugo Chavez regime and designed to ensure power retention.

A whistleblower that was on the security team in Venezuela at the time has said,there is a back door to the software and if he wanted to add a million votes he could.

Take software that was coded in Venezuela under a dictatorship in cooperation with the Chinese intelligence agency,where our tally’s are figured up on servers in Germany and Spain what could possibly go wrong?

The voting machines were built with Chinese parts totally against protocol where United States voting machines are to be manufactured in the United States outside the realm and possibility of foreign interference or intervention.

No voting machine used in the United States is to be connected to the internet while the voting process is ongoing in order to not be excessable to outside hacking.

That was the directives that came out of the whole Russian thing.

But yet the machines were updated useing usb flash drives,minutes before the process began causing glitches in the system.

At any rate and at this point who cares who actually won,because next time it could be used against the opposition in the same manner.

We spent 3 years and millions of dollars investigating the possibility of Russian intervention,we can sure do the same with this and we really need to.

Another version: The two Republicans got in a snit over a couple of minor paperwork errors and then quickly caved when people spoke out about their nonsense.

[MikeM]

Another version: The two Republicans got in a snit over a couple of minor paperwork errors and then quickly caved when people spoke out about their nonsense.

Correct. And after this presidency, who's going to read any long-winded "explanations" from the right? Keep it to 140 characters Richard.

[CassTechGrad]

It was “the end justifies the means” philosophy in this election. We all saw the liberal media’s true self in those White House press conferences and how Democratic politicians openly expresses their hatred for Trump. The left organized large rallies over the last 4 years denouncing Trump’s presidency and trying everything to overturn the election. Does anybody sincerely believe that they wouldn’t use election fraud to make sure Trump didn’t get reelected? Come on guy’s be real. Did it happen here? I don’t know but I guarantee it happened somewhere and weather it effected the outcome we'll never know.

[jcole]

I let Jocelyn answer

Well Wayne county is refusing to certify the vote,so next it goes to supervisor of elections then to the state legislature.