Welcome to the Reality of DEFUNDING Policing...

**Richard** · July-08-20, 05:13 PM

Pfffft what pandemic they have a country to overthrow,the virus is just a little speed bump.

The whole Mt Rushmore thing is also another one,we bought that land from the French,they got a problem they can bring it up with the French.

The Indians are acting like thier past was filled with smoking peace pipes and singing kum-by-ya around the campfire.

They were burning,raping,kidnapping and killing other tribes in their land grabs,when are they going to be held accountable to the other tribes for their past wrongs?

**Zacha341** · July-08-20, 09:12 PM

^^^ There are very few cultures/ nations or peoples absence of malice, killing, conquering, and other brutalities. Such has been the history of mankind. However, one set of negative behaviors DO not excuse others.

I can't collaborate on any justification of the determined destruction of the varied Native Americans against their will which is a historical fact.

They had their own angst - internal strife, tribe against tribe. This made only worse [[in their divided state) by an occupier bent on taking their lands by force, denying their civil rights, leveraging their power by deceit and murder to conquer them collectively.

This is what happened regardless to what the Native Americans nations were doing among themselves [[during or before)! It's a sad chapter of US history, granted. I don't see it is our only chapter [[as some do), but it happened.

I'd not assume what they're thinking collectively.

I'd also not personally walk about in perpetual guilt especially if my own family were not involved. But historical events are to hard deny here considering the vast amounts of detailed info. on the subject.

**Honky Tonk** · July-09-20, 05:19 AM

My take on policing is not defunding but more funding. You're not going to draw rocket scientists at a measly $36k a year. Hence, you have the problems developing that you do. Where I live the ratio is about is about 70-30, black to white. [[maybe 60-40 now with the millennial influx) We all seem to get along fine and talk freely and honestly with each other about things. I haven't run into one person yet, black or white, that advocates defunding the police, and receive a solid "oh, hell no" about shutting down operation Green Light. My neighbor, who needs a walker to get around, informed me she walked 3 blocks and back to the local grocery store. I became miffed when she told me, and replied that I had already told her if she needed something, let me know and I would pick it up. "Why would you do that?" I asked. "Because I can" she answered. I can't imagine some shithead choke-holding her and taking her purse because she wanted to excersize the little bit of independence she still has. I can't imagine living in a world where there's no repercussions for the aforementioned shithead, leaving them to prey on those that can't defend themselves.

**Zacha341** · July-09-20, 05:25 AM

^^^ I agree. Love your 'testimony' from your neighborhood. We need healthy collaborations within our communities and with policing. And more people reaching out beyond the boundaries we've built to survive!

Living in urban settings beyond the safety of keyboarded blogs, no one wants to be a mark [[preyed upon). There are far too many operating from a position of being BOUND! Bound in their fear, or their need to sculpt a narrative to fit an agenda. Bound to the idea of neutralized police department as the greatest solution! It will not be. Criminality will thrive.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

My take on policing is not defunding but more funding. You're not going to draw rocket scientists at a measly $36k a year.

For starters, that figure you cited is an extremely low outlier and not AT ALL representative of what police officers actually make in Michigan. Salary.com says the average salary for a cop in Michigan is 57K a year, Indeed.com pegs it at 50K a year. It also doesn't take into account the typically generous benefits packages they usually get [[medical, dental, 401K/pension, etc.).

But fine, if you want to pay them more [[which I am not opposed to) then it should be in conjunction with raising the bar for hiring standards. I would also prefer to see mandatory psychological evaluations for all officer candidates as part of the hiring process.

Of course, if departments wanted to pay their personnel more, they could always offload some of those MRAPs and Armored Personnel Carriers and the various other military hardware they have, that would probably free up some coin to spend elsewhere once they actually start acting like civilian police officers again and not as a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces.

**GMan** · July-09-20, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

For starters, that figure you cited is an extremely low outlier and not AT ALL representative of what police officers actually make in Michigan. Salary.com says the average salary for a cop in Michigan is 57K a year, Indeed.com pegs it at 50K a year. It also doesn't take into account the typically generous benefits packages they usually get [[medical, dental, 401K/pension, etc.).

But fine, if you want to pay them more [[which I am not opposed to) then it should be in conjunction with raising the bar for hiring standards. I would also prefer to see mandatory psychological evaluations for all officer candidates as part of the hiring process.

Of course, if departments wanted to pay their personnel more, they could always offload some of those MRAPs and Armored Personnel Carriers and the various other military hardware they have, that would probably free up some coin to spend elsewhere once they actually start acting like civilian police officers again and not as a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces.

Not a low outlier for detroit.

From city webserver:
https://detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs...-26-143413-033

Article on shortage / high turnover in DPD:

https://www.bridgemi.com/detroit-jou...s-jumping-ship

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by GMan

Not a low outlier for detroit.

From city webserver:
https://detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs...-26-143413-033

Article on shortage / high turnover in DPD:

https://www.bridgemi.com/detroit-jou...s-jumping-ship

Well Detroit IS the outlier there, but notice even in that salary range the pay is tied to qualifications. You get paid more if you have a college degree. But hey, I'm on 100% board with dropping the "low pay/low qualifications" model of policing that Detroit and other departments use. You could graduate from high school with a C- average, have misdemeanor offenses and traffic violations on your record, and STILL get hired. In many respects, you get what you pay for, so I'm on board with expecting a higher caliber of police officer and compensating them accordingly.

On another note, perhaps city, county, and state governments would have more funds to allocate to police agencies to earmark for salaries if they didn't have to pay out so many six-figure and seven-figure civil judgement and settlements to citizens who's rights were violated by the police.

**Honky Tonk** · July-09-20, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Of course, if departments wanted to pay their personnel more, they could always offload some of those MRAPs and Armored Personnel Carriers and the various other military hardware they have, that would probably free up some coin to spend elsewhere once they actually start acting like civilian police officers again and not as a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces.

Next time they have any active shooter wasting neighbors, I'll suggest they give you a call. You can walk past the police barricades with a tray of Tim Hortons coffee and donuts, and show them how it's done.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Next time they have any active shooter wasting neighbors, I'll suggest they give you a call. You can walk past the police barricades with a tray of Tim Hortons coffee and donuts, and show them how it's done.

When was the last time the Detroit police needed to use a tank to take out an active shooter? Can you even name one time?

Yup, definitely makes sense to maintain a fleet of tanks as a contingency for an event that rarely happens.

**Zacha341** · July-09-20, 10:48 AM

Well there was that perky event in 2012... but hey for me I am not arguing for tanks. I just know we are not in the position to call for full disbandment of policing in Detroit. No way!

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/swat-te...s-appointment/

**Honky Tonk** · July-09-20, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

When was the last time the Detroit police needed to use a tank to take out an active shooter? Can you even name one time? Yup, definitely makes sense to maintain a fleet of tanks as a contingency for an event that rarely happens.

That stuff was purchased for pennies on the dollar after the Federal government had their after war close-out sale. I don't think they have a fleet, maybe one or two in strategic areas. The vests, semi-automatic rifles, etc., all needed. Come into the outlying areas of Detroit on New Years Eve and take a listen. You really want to go up against that with a .38 revolver?

**Zacha341** · July-09-20, 11:31 AM

^^^ NOT JUST the Outlying areas - I'm not too far from Midtown there's more variants of gun fire than you can think of. Pounding, heavy, overlapping and constant... including the auto and semi-auto works!

I remember my dad had a .357 back in his days of reserve policing. That would be uselessly slow and cumbersome these days.

**Meddle** · July-09-20, 11:40 AM

SRT had armored vehicles in the 70s, maybe earlier. At least two that I know of that were used several times a year. Usually on warrant services where violence was anticipated but also on callout for barricaded gunmen, which there seemed to be quite a few of back then.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

That stuff was purchased for pennies on the dollar after the Federal government had their after war close-out sale. I don't think they have a fleet, maybe one or two in strategic areas. The vests, semi-automatic rifles, etc., all needed. Come into the outlying areas of Detroit on New Years Eve and take a listen. You really want to go up against that with a .38 revolver?

Because those are the only two alternatives. Either cops drive around in M1 Abrams tanks or else all they have is a tiny little .38 and nothing else to defend themselves with. There's nothing in-between those two EXTREME options. Nothing at all. Gotcha. Good to know you're arguing from a position of legitimate debate and aren't being deliberately intellectually-dishonest. It's either we let home owners buy missile launchers for home defense or we let roving bands of criminal ninjas rape and murder entire defenseless families! So let's let everyone buy AT-4 missile launchers to defend their homes with! See, logic!

Just FYI, even if the vehicles were free, are you aware of how much money it costs to maintain those vehicles in good working order and supply them with fuel? What kind of gas mileage do you think an 18-ton MRAP gets? If an MRAP breaks down, do you think you just take it in to Midas to have it fixed? The OPERATIONAL costs of these behemoths far exceed any purchase cost.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

SRT had armored vehicles in the 70s, maybe earlier. At least two that I know of that were used several times a year. Usually on warrant services where violence was anticipated but also on callout for barricaded gunmen, which there seemed to be quite a few of back then.

A handful of vehicles for SPECIALIZED SWAT-type units in high-population urban environments is one thing, but that's not how the 1033 Program has been used.

For example, please explain to me why the police department for rural Thetford Township, MI [[Population 7000) needs military-grade mine detectors.

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/201...ng_invest.html

Lots of terrorists deploying land mines in Thetford Township? They got $1 million worth of military gear, which the Police Chief distributed to all of his buddies so they could use them as Big Boy Toys.

**GMan** · July-09-20, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

.................................
For example, please explain to me why the police department for rural Thetford Township, MI [[Population 7000) needs military-grade mine detectors.

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/201...ng_invest.html

Lots of terrorists deploying land mines in Thetford Township? They got $1 million worth of military gear, which the Police Chief distributed to all of his buddies so they could use them as Big Boy Toys.

Hey they got the hydroseeder also so they can re-seed the lawn after pulling up the mines they find.

Seriously though, sounds like they went on a spending spree with department grants for personal gain. Remember the rash of sheriff departments that had the "reserve deputies" programs for their friends and political contributors? From memory it seems one small dept in mid Mich had over a hundred reservists who all got their shiny badges to flash when ever they needed to get out of trouble.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by GMan

Hey they got the hydroseeder also so they can re-seed the lawn after pulling up the mines they find.

Seriously though, sounds like they went on a spending spree with department grants for personal gain. Remember the rash of sheriff departments that had the "reserve deputies" programs for their friends and political contributors? From memory it seems one small dept in mid Mich had over a hundred reservists who all got their shiny badges to flash when ever they needed to get out of trouble.

Exactly. Here's another local example [[there are many many examples).

Saginaw County ended up giving an MRAP back to the federal government when they were shocked at how much it cost to operate it and after John Oliver made fun of them on Last Week Tonight as it appeared the only actual use of the war vehicle was for Saginaw County deputies to joy ride around town in for the "kewl" factor.

https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/2...f_getting.html

The funny part is that the original justification for the Saginaw Sheriff requesting the vehicle in the first place was his fear of officers being ambushed by criminals welding automatic weapons with "silencers." Because Saginaw County is wartime Baghdad, you see. Anyways, I'm not aware of a single instance in the entire history of Saginaw County of such an ambush by heavily-armed insurgents occurring, so to have officers driving around in MRAPs would appear to be a very expensive solution to a problem that never existed. Just the annual maintenance costs for one of these boondoggles is easily in the five figures, it's not like you can just take it to Midas to get new brake pads.

**Jimaz** · July-09-20, 02:11 PM

Our military industrial complex at play.

**aj3647** · July-09-20, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Our military industrial complex at play.

Shhhh, you'll trigger Honky Tonk! He thinks these things operate for free and cost no money, and that police officers in every podunk bumfuck town in America should totally drive around in vehicles designed to protect their occupants from massive roadside bombs in a warzone because REASONS.

**Jimaz** · July-09-20, 04:53 PM

The "military–industrial complex" was a term that "gained popularity after a warning on its detrimental effects in the farewell address of President Dwight D. Eisenhower on January 17, 1961."

Wasn't Eisenhower that flaming, radical, left-wing, ANTIFA-hugging commie?

**Richard** · July-09-20, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

For starters, that figure you cited is an extremely low outlier and not AT ALL representative of what police officers actually make in Michigan. Salary.com says the average salary for a cop in Michigan is 57K a year, Indeed.com pegs it at 50K a year. It also doesn't take into account the typically generous benefits packages they usually get [[medical, dental, 401K/pension, etc.).

But fine, if you want to pay them more [[which I am not opposed to) then it should be in conjunction with raising the bar for hiring standards. I would also prefer to see mandatory psychological evaluations for all officer candidates as part of the hiring process.

Of course, if departments wanted to pay their personnel more, they could always offload some of those MRAPs and Armored Personnel Carriers and the various other military hardware they have, that would probably free up some coin to spend elsewhere once they actually start acting like civilian police officers again and not as a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces.

The police are a protective force and have to be prepared for and be able to address and prepare for anything that may come up.

They learned that lesson with the California bank robbery shoot out where the the police had to go to pawn shops in order to get the high powered weapons in order to stop the bank robbers.

It appears as though some do not have a clue about the weapons in the street and think they know what it is like,next time somebody with a high powered weapon has somebody hostage,volunteer to handle the situation,walk up there naked,disarm the person and be a hero.

Much easier to be a backseat driver,safer also when it is not your ass in the line of fire.

Save me from the bad guys,o but you have to do it with kisses and hugs,you get no self protection,I can go home to my family at the end of the day why should I care if you end up dead as long as you are a distraction long enough for me to run.

Nobody as it appears,has the balls to walk down the street and tell gangbangers to act in a civil manner and stop killing everybody, but yet they expect the police to do it in a civil manner.

Be the example,go show the police how it is done,go to Chicago and tell em to lay down arms and play nice,let me know how it went.

People act like the police are out there dealing with fine upstanding citizens that are just wandering about minding their own business.

A crackhead will blow your brains out for $1 and not think twice about it,if a cop needs a armored car to do his or her job so they can go home at the end of the day why not?

We demand workforce protections why should the police be exempt from expecting the same.

Some seem to be a little slow coming out the gate but recent events Kinda makes it clear who the line of defense is between joe citizen and mr thug.

Mr Thug could really give a crap about your rights,family or life,what part about that is confusing?

With all of the crap going on,if you run over a IED in the road,who is the first person you call,if you survive?

**Meddle** · July-09-20, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

It appears as though some do not have a clue about the weapons in the street

And who's fault is it they're out there?

Oh, yeah ....

N

R

A

**Richard** · July-09-20, 06:05 PM

^ just burns you that the NRA helps to protect the constitution of the United States.

opps sorry,almost forgot,who needs that pesky constitution anyways.

Last month alone 4 million of your fellow Americans practiced their right to bear arms as protected by the constitution of the United States.

Thats 4 million more that will not become soft targets to be preyed on.