Third Anniversary of the Q Line

**401don** · May-14-20, 08:50 AM

Just curious if you guys think voting will be a logistical nightmare. It appears Republicans will keep mail-in ballots are off the table. Could they not spread voting over several days?

**JonWylie** · May-14-20, 09:03 AM

Without trying to derail this thread too much, I think there's a good chance Democrats pick up a seat in Arizona and Colorado, while losing one in Alabama. That essentially leaves Maine and NC as the big toss ups, but I also think Montana could be in the picture with Bullock running. Michigan probably stays Peters but the make-up of the Senate could hinge on just a few percentage points.

Back to the light rail and bus debate, a large thing that often makes rail worth the investment is the sense of permanency of the rail compared to a bus. People buy homes, rent apartments, put businesses, and build new buildings close to light rail/subway lines because they know the stream of commerce will be there for the long term, its something you don't see as often with traditional buses. Bus rapid transit may be a good compromise but have to make it gold standard bus rapid transit with 100% dedicated lanes, even boarding, and long buses.

**ABetterDetroit** · May-14-20, 10:06 PM

If you want tourist or tech savvy young employees to appreciate buses you have to update the bus, the stops and the reliability of the system. All far more affordable then laying tracks. Hopefully Ford is thinking along these lines with their ‘mobility company’ philosophy.

https://www.daimler.com/innovation/a...uture-bus.html

**Bigdd** · May-14-20, 10:37 PM

I found an article that has ridership numbers for EARLY 2019 [[still cold out?), and it was 2,490 per day.

All of 2018 was 3,200 a day,.. so it seems to be continuing to fall.

Numbers should have come out last week for 2019. But I think they're closed down. Supposedly they have 2 cars running occasionally,. but no ne answers the phone.

**Bigdd** · May-14-20, 10:38 PM

I found an article that has ridership numbers for EARLY 2019 [[still cold out?), at 2,490 per day.

All of 2018 was 3,280 a day,.. so it seems to be continuing to fall. [[For reference, when it opened, officials said they were expecting 8,000 a day). So another wisdom nugget,... don't believe models and projections.

The numbers should have come out last week for 2019. But I think QLine is closed down. Supposedly they have 2 cars running occasionally,. but I'm guessing no one is coming into the office. At least no one is answering the phone.

**Johnnny5** · May-15-20, 08:33 AM

**Deleted.

**softailrider** · May-15-20, 02:15 PM

Detroit is not a mass transit city anymore, I guess it used to be but that ended 60 years ago. Now it seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

**Metro25** · May-15-20, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Detroit is not a mass transit city anymore, I guess it used to be but that ended 60 years ago. Now it seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Cities will always need and benefit from mass transit no matter what city it is. So it's really the opposite. Detroit needs to expand and build public transit infrastructure and there is no reason it can't. The writing is on the wall but boomer types are kicking and screaming the entire way desperately smashing the private car peg.

They want their extremely inefficient highways and pedestrian murdering wide roads, sorry but people have other needs and people want to go forward with better alternatives.

**Bigdd** · May-15-20, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

Cities will always need and benefit from mass transit no matter what city it is.

I presume that's BEFORE you consider the cost,.. and the myriad of other things that don't happen because the money was spent on light rail?

Because when you're strapped for cash, spending billions on something that's the least efficient and least flexible of it's type is usually considered a boondoggle, and not a benefit.

**JonWylie** · May-15-20, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Detroit is not a mass transit city anymore, I guess it used to be but that ended 60 years ago. Now it seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

The region needs mass transit, not just the city

**Metro25** · May-15-20, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

The region needs mass transit, not just the city

Amen, people need to realize that the whole region needs mass transit, it's not a city of Detroit thing. We are missing out on billions of dollars in economic activity and prosperity without mass transit. Not to mention a lot of federal government money.

Things are changing though, lots of leadership in the region is different and lots of political changes at the state level will come as a result of the anti-gerrymandering bill that passed.

**JonWylie** · May-15-20, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

I presume that's BEFORE you consider the cost,.. and the myriad of other things that don't happen because the money was spent on light rail?

Because when you're strapped for cash, spending billions on something that's the least efficient and least flexible of it's type is usually considered a boondoggle, and not a benefit.

I don't think you're going to get anyone here that's going to argue that we should spend money on things we don't need. Better bus transit should 100% be a goal for the region. However, there are areas that could be served by rail that could be very effective, maybe even more so than bus transit.

**Wheels** · May-15-20, 05:45 PM

Ya that’s what we need, a vehicle we can pack a mass of people in to spread virus faster! Good luck with that.

**ABetterDetroit** · May-15-20, 09:03 PM

Just curious why the same folks who pump rail constantly on this forum for years sometimes under different screen names never suggest running that Billion Dollar Elevated train down 7 mile, arguably the densest part of Detroit instead of the constant running downtown to airport or A2 and Royal Oak up the flagpole?

The average Detroiter is really not looking to spend a month in Thailand or desperate to go get hammered in RO or A2 on $7 craft beers without getting in a car.

Why exactly are the neighborhoods of Detroit somehow always left out of the equation of ‘the rail Detroit has to have?’

**Jason** · May-15-20, 11:54 PM

Downtown is the region's single biggest employment center. And within Detroit, other than a handful of factories, it contains nearly all of Detroit's jobs. Downtown is the single biggest individual place that Detroiters are traveling to.

If you travel up Woodward [[DDOT's most used route) the closest logical point to end the route is Royal Oak, because it's a reasonably dense place and it's a major SMART bus hub, has an Amtrak station, and importantly SE Oakland County has a large number of downtown workers [[if you're looking at this as a neutral transit issue and not a political or social justice issue). tbh DDOT should just extend their own buses express to Royal Oak because it's such a better transfer point to suburban jobs than the State Fairgrounds.

For 7 Mile specifically, about twice as many people ride the buses on Woodward. 7 Mile doesn't have much employment [[except for St John at the very end), and I'm guessing most of the people riding that bus route are actually using it to transfer. Elevated rail on Woodward would be more useful to most people living along 7 Mile because it could mean that they could take a short bus ride to the metro station, and then get to their destination faster, without having to worry about transfer delays or reliability issues or waiting at a bus stop for forever.

You could look at other routes too though.

The problem with Gratiot is that its jobs are very dispersed and along a VERY long route. The route would really need to go all the way to Mt Clemens in order to cover all of the retail jobs that people are traveling to. Just by its nature, improved bus service makes more sense for Gratiot. That's not even thinking about the politics of building transit in Macomb County.

Grand River is similar, except that it has less employment.

Michigan Avenue in Detroit isn't that great as a route [[although I think the route could jog over to serve SW Detroit). But Dearborn is tied with Hamtramck for having the densest neighborhoods. But it also is a major employment center, and has colleges, major tourist attractions, an Amtrak station, and a lot of developable land. And then after that you have the I-94 and existing rail right of ways to make a quick jump to the airport.

Jefferson is a route that I think should be taken more seriously than it usually is. The area near downtown is dense, but also has a decent amount of employment and other destinations, and it has a strong commuting relationship to downtown. Grosse Pointe and Harper Woods also have a very strong commuting relationship to downtown. And physically it's the easiest and cheapest to build transit on. I think a route on Jefferson and then jogging and going to St John would be successful.

Then there are other routes to look at. Dexter is ridden a lot but Dexter is basically a branch of the Woodward bus route. It follows Woodward for a while and then it veers off to go into the denser residential areas instead of following Woodward, and it lets people make one seat rides. A lot of routes do this, they're east-west routes and the when they get close to Woodward they turn and go downtown. But with a really fast frequent backbone these funky routings wouldn't be needed, you'd just need good crosstown service perpendicular to the route and it becomes faster to transfer to the metro.

Our region has a reverse commute thing going on where many suburbanites commute downtown and many Detroits commute to the suburbs. The biggest bus stops are the transfer points between SMART and DDOT because those are the trips that actual people are making. The routes that objectively make the most sense are ones that connect downtown to the suburbs.

**renf** · May-16-20, 08:30 AM

Jason,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. The Census Bureau annually publishes data about the population density of all the geographic areas you mention.

**Wheels** · May-16-20, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Just curious why the same folks who pump rail constantly on this forum for years sometimes under different screen names never suggest running that Billion Dollar Elevated train down 7 mile, arguably the densest part of Detroit instead of the constant running downtown to airport or A2 and Royal Oak up the flagpole?

The average Detroiter is really not looking to spend a month in Thailand or desperate to go get hammered in RO or A2 on $7 craft beers without getting in a car.

Why exactly are the neighborhoods of Detroit somehow always left out of the equation of ‘the rail Detroit has to have?’

Not to mention that seven mile is probably the safest area of Detroit!

**Zacha341** · May-16-20, 10:36 AM

^^^Um, hah! I get the sarcasm there. No rail is going to be financed down Seven mile, within Detroit - east or west!

**Atticus** · May-16-20, 04:56 PM

The politically incorrect [[but probably truthful) answer is that it doesn’t make sense to spend limited public dollars on rail, for a route that serves almost entirely low income neighborhoods.

Yes that statement sounds awful, and is not socially just at first. But the cost difference between bus and rail is huge. Obviously transit is necessary, and governments should create the best bus systems they can. But my point is basically this: You could spend X dollars on providing bus transit to low income folks, or you could spend X+Y dollars to provide that same transit via rail. But the real question is what is the best use of that Y dollars? I would argue there are many better things you could do with those Y dollars than basically pay to upgrade the bus to rail. Things like after school programs, job training, etc. is a far better economic use of those Y dollars for the low income neighborhoods.

Conversely, if you are trying to attract out-of-town investment, new urbanists and job creators, and the higher income earners who will contribute more to your local tax base, than maybe the economics of rail may make sense. Sounds harsh, but that is what will get the best return for your tax investment.

**Gistok** · May-17-20, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Not to mention that seven mile is probably the safest area of Detroit!

Maybe on the west side near Palmer Woods... but not on the east side. 48205 is one of the 3 roughest zip codes in Detroit.

**Jason** · May-18-20, 01:22 AM

Whether someone is rich or poor does affect the finances from the city's point of view, but the city still gets money from upgrading transit for poor people.

If someone is unemployed and doesn't have a car, the city makes $0 in income taxes, but if better transit gets them a job and they make $25,000, the city gets $625 a year, plus at least $900 a year in fares. If this happens with 2,500 people, over the course of 30 years the city would get over $100 million dollars that it wasn't getting before, plus a bunch of spinoff benefits [[less crime/police costs, less blight/demolition costs, etc). When it's all said and done, DDOT is probably a profitable investment for the city.

**iheartthed** · May-18-20, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

The politically incorrect [[but probably truthful) answer is that it doesn’t make sense to spend limited public dollars on rail, for a route that serves almost entirely low income neighborhoods.

Yes that statement sounds awful, and is not socially just at first. But the cost difference between bus and rail is huge. Obviously transit is necessary, and governments should create the best bus systems they can. But my point is basically this: You could spend X dollars on providing bus transit to low income folks, or you could spend X+Y dollars to provide that same transit via rail. But the real question is what is the best use of that Y dollars? I would argue there are many better things you could do with those Y dollars than basically pay to upgrade the bus to rail. Things like after school programs, job training, etc. is a far better economic use of those Y dollars for the low income neighborhoods.

Conversely, if you are trying to attract out-of-town investment, new urbanists and job creators, and the higher income earners who will contribute more to your local tax base, than maybe the economics of rail may make sense. Sounds harsh, but that is what will get the best return for your tax investment.

From an economic pov, it makes waaaay more sense to spend on rail than just about anything else. Investing in rail is a pretty safe bet for expanding Detroit's tax base. Putting money into social programs is commendable, but the money will eventually run out if the city doesn't grow.

**stasu1213** · May-18-20, 11:56 AM

I think that Biden will make sure Detroit will get its mass transit together as he had done a few years ago when the Reflex busses had started in Detroit

**Metro25** · May-18-20, 12:20 PM

I don't think Biden gives a shit about Detroit and I don't see him winning.

**iheartthed** · May-18-20, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I think that Biden will make sure Detroit will get its mass transit together as he had done a few years ago when the Reflex busses had started in Detroit

Biden doesn't have a magic wand to make mass transit work in Detroit. Detroit doesn't have good mass transit because of politics in the Detroit area. No other reason.