Gas Prices Low! FOR NOW...

[MikeM]

You basically just proved my point. E15 couldn't be sold during the summer due to its RVP. The war in Ukraine created the supply disruption, so an E15 waiver was issued on May to allow the higher RVP E15 to be sold through September 15. The waiver didn't allow higher RVP gasoline to be sold.

The BP fire [[and the earlier Delek failure) created localized shortages, so eastern Texas and the Lake Michigan states got emergency waivers to sell higher RVP gasoline.

Glad you finally sort of understand. Gasoline also has regional RVP limits even with zero ethanol [[E0).

[Richard]

You basically just proved my point. E15 couldn't be sold during the summer due to its RVP. The war in Ukraine created the supply disruption, so an E15 waiver was issued on May to allow the higher RVP E15 to be sold through September 15. The waiver didn't allow higher RVP gasoline to be sold.

The BP fire [[and the earlier Delek failure) created localized shortages, so eastern Texas and the Lake Michigan states got emergency waivers to sell higher RVP gasoline.

Glad you finally sort of understand. Gasoline also has regional RVP limits even with zero ethanol [[E0).

Why do you keep twisting it around to make it seem like I do not understand it,apparently you still do not understand it.

There was no shortage,you were told a shortage existed in order to justify the price increase.

The war in Ukraine had zero bearing on fuel prices in the U.S. outside of it was an excuse.

The BP fire in Whiting had zero impact of fuel prices in Michigan as advertised,I have provided plenty of information repeatedly that proves that.

A shortage equates to less product availability which equates to less profits to the oil company,we have been producing the same amount of oil and the oil companies have shown record profits.

That is the exact opposite of a shortage,the price of gasoline just like everything else shot up in price because the dollar had little value due to inflation because of the massive amount of cash dumped into the market.

They just used the word shortage because they did not want to use the word inflation because it looks bad.

We were not dependent on foreign oil or prices the only thing they did was export at one price and imported at another which drove up costs and provided an illusion of a shortage.

They had to find an excuse to justify raising the prices,they just called it a shortage.

They did it so the federal government could raise billions in oil import taxes and raise funds,at the expense of the American pubic.

If there was a shortage in the United States,we would have never had the highest volume of oil exports in 2 years,we would have needed it to fill the demand here.

[MikeM]

You're the one who keeps changing the subject every time I correct you.

Reuters, Aug 25th:

Chicago CBOB gasoline gained 30.5 cents per gallon, trading 3 cents above the futures benchmark on the New York Mercantile Exchange , market participants said.​

Chicago ultra-low sulfur diesel gained 17 cents, trading 20 cents above diesel futures .

Argus, Aug 25th:

The outage sent Chicago gasoline prices rocketing higher and smothered West Canadian Select [[WCS) crude prices. Argus assessments immediately following the outage climbed higher by 44.75¢/USG for regular Chicago CBOB and by 48.75¢/USG for regular Chicago RBOB.

[Richard]

You could be a dress maker as much as you skirt about.

You have not corrected me on anything,you are desperately trying to justify actions even after you were presented with facts.

Prices are going to rise again because the oil production countries announced that they are going to start limiting production in order to keep prices high.

Unfortunately daddy decided to make us an importer of oil verses self sufficient so we get to be OPECs little bitches again and just have to suck it up.

Prices started to go up 2 weeks ago when the announcement was made and now because they committed to lowering production they will go back up.

Not tomorrow but within the next 30 days,you can also bet winter setting in will also increase the prices,you can park your car and ride a bike or public transit,but you still have to heat your house.

An outage represents zero production,has anybody in Michigan seen any gas stations that were out of gas?

Or even in Chicago?

You still do not understand the concept of if there was a shortage in Michigan or Chicago then it would reflect that shortage in prices,but the prices have been about the same as the rest of the country.

There is a gas station in Orlando near the airport,they have been $10 per gallon for over 20 years,because they are the only station left for when people with rental cars have to bring the car back with a full tank.

People pay it because they have no choice,the station charges it because they can,if there was a shortage as claimed,stations would be selling gas for $10 per gallon and even higher as the other stations ran out.

You must be young,otherwise you would remember the real gas shortages of the 1970s and how that was handled.

We see real gas shortages when a hurricane is coming in or has passed and while you are sitting in line for 2 hours waiting,you see the guy on the ladder upping the prices every 15 minutes as other stations run out of fuel.

1 out of 10 stations will have fuel.

IF there was a shortage in this country,that was why the national reserve was established,in order to keep the supply uninterrupted.

IF there was a shortage in this country,we would not have sold oil from the National reserve to foreign countries and even worse China.

Because otherwise that would make the person selling off the national reserves to foreign countries and even worse China,look like he or she is putting their interests in front of the American peoples who were suffering from the high cost of fuel and everything else that is related to it.

Good thing that did not happen …. O wait ….. it did happen.

I explained why it happened and you just want to live in denial and try to push it off on me like I am that gullible.

The national reserve is No different then the social security fund,government officials see it as a cash cow in order to fund their pet projects,the national reserve and social security was our money designed to protect us in our time of need,not for politicians to put their greedy little hands in it.

I want to see the governments plan to replace that oil in the national reserve out of their pockets and not out of ours.

So they got us twice,once at the pump and everything else,and now we have to pay to replace what they took.

[MikeM]

Blah, blah, blah...

There was a shortage of RBOB and summer RVP CBOB. That's why the prices spiked when 400 MBbl went offline. Remember supply and demand? Solution: allow a different supply to take its place - winter RVP gasoline.

[Richard]

^ bla bla bla

You are still confused on there was no shortage of supply or danger of one,if there was they would have used the national reserve in country and not sold it overseas.

That is why it was established.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

People would have been marching on the White House had a president sold the National reserve to China and others while we were standing in line because of shortages here.

You do not think all of that was calculated out ?

I have a bridge for sale,if you are interested I will give it to you cheap,it is in Brooklyn though.

If there was a impending shortage,do you think that Michigan’s governor would have fought so hard to shut down #5 while knowing full well it would have devastated you state’s economy?

The Midwest region — Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Pennsylvania — would pay between $4.8 billion and $5.9 billion more a year on gasoline and diesel, according to the study. The closure of Line 5 could increase regional fuel prices by 9.5% to 11.7%, if the fallout from prior disruptions to refineries due to natural disasters is any indication, according to a Consumers Energy Alliance study released in March.

[MikeM]

^ bla bla bla

You are still confused on there was no shortage of supply or danger of one,if there was they would have used the national reserve in country and not sold it overseas.

That is why it was established.

National reserve? Of gasoline? Are you that misinformed or are you deflecting again?

[Richard]

National reserve? Of gasoline? Are you that misinformed or are you deflecting again?

Maybe we should start at the beginning,do you know where gasoline comes from?

Do you know what the National reserve is,why it was established and when it is to be used?

We keep hearing that prices are high because of a shortage of this or a shortage of that ….

Capacity utilization rate is used to measure the rate at which potential output levels are being met or used.

The United States is currently running at 80% capacity,from 1967 - 2022 the highest being 89% the lowest 67% .

If the shortages were real in anything we would not as a country be running at 80% capacity because the supplies would not be able to keep up with the demand we would be closer to the 67% which is what it was during the recession of the 70s.

Even during COVID when most of the states were shut down,we were still running at 77.5 %,as a whole the country only dropped 3% when it comes to supply and demand.

The numbers do not lie,there is no supply and demand issue on anything that is forcing prices up,the country has been running on steam the whole time,the only thing that pushed prices up with gas and everything else was dumping a whole bunch of cash into the market which in turn devalued the dollar.

Commonly referred to as inflation,it’s just easier to tell people it’s a supply and demand problem.

[MikeM]

There is no national gasoline reserve. Stick to the topic Richard. We're talking fuel waivers.

[Richard]

There is no national gasoline reserve. Stick to the topic Richard. We're talking fuel waivers.

So now all you have to do is show me where I ever posted that we have a national gasoline reserve.

We are not talking about fuel waivers,we are talking about waivers that allow the exceeding of summer pollution levels through the use of E15.

E15 is just the name of the tool.

You are not actually reading anything,just superglued to your narrative no matter what the human cost is.

[MikeM]

So now all you have to do is show me where I ever posted that we have a national gasoline reserve.

Sure. MikeM posted:

There was a shortage of RBOB and summer RVP CBOB. That's why the prices spiked when 400 MBbl went offline. Remember supply and demand? Solution: allow a different supply to take its place - winter RVP gasoline.

We were discussing gasoline prices and RVP waivers due to supply interruptions from refinery issues. Richard directly and immediately responded:

You are still confused on there was no shortage of supply or danger of one,if there was they would have used the national reserve in country and not sold it overseas.

So now he wants me to think he's talking about oil reserves and not gasoline reserves. Because he got called out and needs to change the subject.

We are not talking about fuel waivers,we are talking about waivers that allow the exceeding of summer pollution levels through the use of E15.

E15 is just the name of the tool.

Yes we are. You just don't want to anymore since I set you straight. RVP waivers for E15 and for gasoline are two different things. The sole purpose of waivers is to increase the supply of fuel. E15 waivers were to increase the supply of E15 which would increase the supply of gasoline. Gasoline RVP waivers for non-E15 fuel were to increase the supply of fuel in the wake of refinery malfunctions.

[Richard]

I do not want you to think anything,you just need to read,it’s clear the thinking process does not exist.

You are just trolling now.

I told you to look up what the national reserve is,when it was created,why it was created and when it is supposed to be used,I tried to keep it simple for you and remove the actual thinking process,all you had to do is read and understand.

And you took that as me wanting you to believe there was a big puddle of gasoline somewhere to draw from?

Read the EPA response to the governors request for a RVP waiver in order to have permission to exceed the summer pollution limits,once again E15 is just the vessel used to exceed those levels.

Once again I posted the link that clearly spells that out for you,but once again you choose not to read it.

To quote you - Bla bla bla

It does not matter if you are an auto manufacturer,factory owner or refinery,if you want to exceed the pollution levels set by the EPA you request a waiver,they do not care what you are doing to create the pollution,it is irrelevant all they care about is by how much you are going to exceed the set limits,so they can track pollution and charge accordingly.

The governor requested a waiver to exceed the set pollution levels for the summer months,she could have used E15 or E9000000 ,it is irrelevant the tool she was using.

The pollution levels that E10 emits is the maximum level that the EPA allows for the summer months.

I am ending this discussion because you clearly do not want to actually learn anything that exceeds your narrative,everything I have posted has been back up with facts,and not what you think it should be and now you are just turning it into a circle jerk.

Feel free to have the last word,you have already dug yourself in deep enough,a little more is not going to make a difference.

[MikeM]

I do not want you to think anything,you just need to read,it’s clear the thinking process does not exist.

You are just trolling now.

I told you to look up what the national reserve is,when it was created,why it was created and when it is supposed to be used,I tried to keep it simple for you and remove the actual thinking process,all you had to do is read and understand.

You mean the STRATEGIC PETROLEUM RESERVE? Better known as the SPR? Why don't you call it its proper name? I know all about it. But, again, we're talking about Michigan fuel prices here. FUEL - as in gasoline and diesel. You want to switch and talk about crude oil now.

Read the EPA response to the governors request for a RVP waiver in order to have permission to exceed the summer pollution limits,once again E15 is just the vessel used to exceed those levels. Once again I posted the link that clearly spells that out for you,but once again you choose not to read it.

Ok, so now we are back to talking about gasoline? Why don't you stick to the topic? Are you referring to the letter you quoted in post #408? And again in #416? OMG, how many times do I have to repeat this?

Therefore, to minimize or prevent disruptions of the supply of gasoline in waiver area, I am issuing thiswaiver of the federal Reid vapor pressure requirements for conventional and reformulated gasoline at40 C.F.R. § 1090.215[[a)[[1) and [[a)[[3), and of the Indiana and Michigan federally-approved lowvolatility gasoline SIPs and the requirements at 40 C.F.R. § 1090.215[[a)[[5), that apply in the waiverarea. Under this temporary waiver, regulated parties may produce, sell, and distribute GASOLINE in thewaiver area with a Reid vapor pressure of no more than 11.5 psi [[12.5 psi if the gasoline containsbetween 9% and 15% ethanol).

Let's look at the quoted regulations:

§ 1090.215 Gasoline RVP standards.

Except as specified in subpart G of this part and paragraph [[c) of this section, all gasoline designated as summer gasoline or located at any location in the United States during the summer season is subject to a maximum RVP per-gallon standard in this section.
[[a)
[[1) Federal 9.0 psi maximum RVP per-gallon standard. Gasoline designated as summer gasoline or located at any location in the United States during the summer season must meet a maximum RVP per-gallon standard of 9.0 psi unless the gasoline is subject to one of the lower maximum RVP per-gallon standards specified in paragraphs [[a)[[2) through [[5) of this section.

[[3)RFG maximum RVP per-gallon standard. Gasoline designated as Summer RFG or located in an RFG covered area during the summer season must meet a maximum RVP per-gallon standard of 7.4 psi.

[[5)SIP-controlled gasoline. Gasoline designated as SIP-controlled gasoline or used in areas subject to a SIP-approved state fuel rule that requires an RVP of less than 9.0 psi must meet the requirements of the federally approved SIP.

You see, they are letting the stricter gasoline RVP requirements rise to 11.5 RVP to increase the supply of gasoline available by allowing non-summer grade gasoline to be sold.

[MikeM]

I am ending this discussion because you clearly do not want to actually learn anything that exceeds your narrative,everything I have posted has been back up with facts,and not what you think it should be and now you are just turning it into a circle jerk.

Feel free to have the last word,you have already dug yourself in deep enough,a little more is not going to make a difference.

Oh, okay, so as usual, you edit to add a few paragraphs to your post long after someone has responded to it. Can't you just make a new post instead, or would that keep you from twisting the narrative?

You started up the discussion again after the thread sat idle for nearly two months, with a post that has nothing to do with Michigan or gas prices, just because you wanted to troll and because you can't stand not having the last word. I'm the one posting facts that can be backed up in response to every one of your misstatements, fallacies, or misleading generalizations, and not some absurd and convoluted conspiracy theories. Like this one that you added a few minutes ago:

It does not matter if you are an auto manufacturer,factory owner or refinery,if you want to exceed the pollution levels set by the EPA you request a waiver,they do not care what you are doing to create the pollution,it is irrelevant all they care about is by how much you are going to exceed the set limits,so they can track pollution and charge accordingly.

The governor requested a waiver to exceed the set pollution levels for the summer months,she could have used E15 or E9000000 ,it is irrelevant the tool she was using.

Applicable sections from the Clean Air Act referred to by the EPA website:

42 U.S. Code § 7545 - Regulation of fuels

Section 211[[c)[[4)[[C)

[[ii)The Administrator may temporarily waive a control or prohibition respecting the use of a fuel or fuel additive required or regulated by the Administrator pursuant to subsection [[c), [[h), [[i), [[k), or [[m) of this section or prescribed in an applicable implementation plan under section 7410 of this title approved by the Administrator under clause [[i) of this subparagraph if, after consultation with, and concurrence by, the Secretary of Energy, the Administrator determines that—

[[I)extreme and unusual fuel or fuel additive supply circumstances exist in a State or region of the Nation which prevent the distribution of an adequate supply of the fuel or fuel additive to consumers;

[[II)such extreme and unusual fuel and fuel additive supply circumstances are the result of a natural disaster, an Act of God, a pipeline or refinery equipment failure, or another event that could not reasonably have been foreseen or prevented and not the lack of prudent planning on the part of the suppliers of the fuel or fuel additive to such State or region; and

[[III)it is in the public interest to grant the waiver [[for example, when a waiver is necessary to meet projected temporary shortfalls in the supply of the fuel or fuel additive in a State or region of the Nation which cannot otherwise be compensated for).

[Zacha341]

Well gas and fuel prices are going back up [some stations over four dollars if not paying with cash]. Quite a mess as winter encroaches withstanding this admins efforts to damage control and distract drivers from the realities at the pump, and the time-frame from which the steep increases started!

That Citco gas station [Michigan ave. near Greenfield] in Dearborn had quite a line at as low as $3.69 [cash] this weekend. I joined in for the savings.

http://www.michigangasprices.com/

How high will gas ultimately go say in January? The settling-in of all this as it were - withstanding the short-term reserve 'solution'.

The Saudi's, for example, acknowledging the truth of global energy stocks during this recession and the Russian/ Ukraine conflict, etc. have warned that we shouldn't deplete our reserves.

Doesn't look like their too keen on a bail-out....

https://abcnews.go.com/International...warns-92413625

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...s_to_come.html

And no, the average Detroiter cannot afford an electric car. And rising heating costs are not solved by that option.

[MikeM]

BP Whiting still not recovered and BP Todelo going to be down for a long time.

[Ray1936]

All gas prices out here in Las Vegas are around five bucks, give or take a dime. Just tossing that in for what it's worth. :[[

[Jimaz]

All gas prices out here in Las Vegas are around five bucks, give or take a dime. Just tossing that in for what it's worth. :[[

Somebody ought to tell Gas Buddy. Their highest at the moment is $4.29 in that area.

This might be useful to you too, Ray: LasVegasGasMaps.com

[MikeM]

Because you're stuck buying California gas.

[MikeM]

$2.98 cash, up and down Gratiot last night.

[Honky Tonk]

$2.98 cash, up and down Gratiot last night.

Wow, that's high. $2.95 on Mack.