Michigan is Imploding Again

**bigboat** · March-06-20, 09:50 AM

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

**Zacha341** · March-06-20, 10:09 AM

Yeah the Ford situation is ridiculous - a pattern of selling cars with a short-shelf life. Especially their compact models. How can they compete with say Toyota or even Hundai with that??

That 'transmission' issue was really nuts in that some customers were summarily told the slipping was normal... I'd never purchase a used Ford. NEVER.

Perhaps their trucks and SUV sales will rebound. Or they come up with a fast muscle car to rival what Chrysler is doing.

**Gistok** · March-06-20, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

I'm not sure 10,000 jobs "will not be coming back soon". Maybe not those jobs....

**bigboat** · March-06-20, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I'm not sure 10,000 jobs "will not be coming back soon". Maybe not those jobs....

The Art Van forecast is 5500 job loss, the Great Lakes Steel is 1600 add to that support jobs and there is a potential for a loss of 10,000 jobs.

**jcole** · March-06-20, 10:48 AM

I think the 5500 Art Van jobs are across 6 states.

Originally Posted by bigboat

The Art Van forecast is 5500 job loss, the Great Lakes Steel is 1600 add to that support jobs and there is a potential for a loss of 10,000 jobs.

**Bigdd** · March-06-20, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

The Art Van forecast is 5500 job loss, the Great Lakes Steel is 1600 add to that support jobs and there is a potential for a loss of 10,000 jobs.

Isn't the 5,500 jobs the total number?

I.E. the number they employ across 6 states?

[[Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, and Missouri)

**LongGone06** · March-06-20, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV.

Ford may or may not face bankruptcy; but, being competitive in today's market means having a strong truck and SUV [[or CUV) lineup. Passenger car sales were down nearly 11% in 2019, after declining 13% in 2018. Truck and SUV sales accounted for 70% of the market in 2019. Even though Toyota is sticking with sedans, its passenger car sales were down roughly 4% in 2019; it is eliminating several models; and, it sold significantly more trucks and SUVs than cars.

**Zacha341** · March-06-20, 11:16 AM

Sedans are passenger cars - four door as apposed to Coupes [[two door hatchbacks for example). Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by LongGone06

...Even though Toyota is sticking with sedans, its passenger car sales were down roughly 4% in 2019...

**Hermod** · March-07-20, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Sedans are passenger cars - four door as apposed to Coupes [[two door hatchbacks for example). Am I missing something?

Zacha, at one time the auto companies made 2 door sedans as well as four door sedans. In the days before car seats, people with small kids bought them so that the kids wouldn't open the doors and fall out. A 2-door sedan looked like a 4 door, but their was no door in the rear. A coupe tended to have a small semi-round rear window. The Chevy Nomad station wagon of the 50s was also a 2-door wagon.

**Zacha341** · March-09-20, 04:03 AM

Well I did mean contemporary cars of today. Not the FDR, or Bonnie and Clyde days...

... Good points you make nonetheless. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Hermod

Zacha, at one time the auto companies made 2 door sedans as well as four door sedans. In the days before car seats, people with small kids bought them so that the kids wouldn't open the doors and fall out. A 2-door sedan looked like a 4 door, but their was no door in the rear. A coupe tended to have a small semi-round rear window. The Chevy Nomad station wagon of the 50s was also a 2-door wagon.

**LongGone06** · March-09-20, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Well I did mean contemporary cars of today. Not the FDR, or Bonnie and Clyde days...

... Good points you make nonetheless. Thanks!

You are correct that most people identify coupes as two-door models, and sedans as four-door models.

**Richard** · March-09-20, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Well I did mean contemporary cars of today. Not the FDR, or Bonnie and Clyde days...

... Good points you make nonetheless. Thanks!

They picked that car because it was thick steel and V8,Local cops could not catch it or shoot holes in it,it was the guys with the bar15 and high power hinting rifles that ventilated it in the end.

The same exact scenario that happened with the California bank shoot out where LEO had to go to the pawn shops for weapons in order to stop the guys.

Now run a Honda up into the back of a pickup and the Honda is totaled while the pick up gets a scratch on the bumper.

**mikeg19** · March-06-20, 11:16 AM

Ford won't go bankrupt. They're sitting on a liquid war chest that most companies could only ever dream about. They definitely need to get their crap together this year and I'd say broom Hackett, but we will see.

**313WX** · March-06-20, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Ford won't go bankrupt. They're sitting on a liquid war chest that most companies could only ever dream about. They definitely need to get their crap together this year and I'd say broom Hackett, but we will see.

The war chest isn't as big as you make it seem.

Ford only has $34 billion in cash on hand [[and that's including everything it would have to mortgage), but current liabilities are $98 Billion in total. All it will take is a mere several consecutive quarters of losses to wipe out that "chest."

True, Ford has a war chest most companies can only dream about, but it also has overhead that most companies only have nightmares about.

**softailrider** · March-06-20, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The war chest isn't as big as you make it seem.

Ford only has $34 billion in cash on hand [[and that's including everything it would have to mortgage), but current liabilities are $98 Billion in total. All it will take is a mere several consecutive quarters of losses to wipe out that "chest."

True, Ford has a war chest most companies can only dream about, but it also has overhead that most companies only have nightmares about.

In spite of extremely low interest rates, low stock price and high yearly dividends, I do not agree with Ford stock being utilized as any type of investment vehicle [[pun intended). While I don’t think there’s any chance of that company going out of business, I don’t want their stock. If you’re looking for dividends, IMO there are better choices out there.

**Metro25** · March-06-20, 11:28 AM

lmfao this is absurd. Michigan is not running on a zug island steel plant that payed poverty wages and art van stores. The steel plant employed nowhere near 10,000 jobs, 1/10th of that more like. Coronavirus is bringing down all the stocks right now, not specific to Ford.

But whatever enforces the doom fetish people on this site have. I guess that keeps you going for the day.

**401don** · March-06-20, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

lmfao this is absurd. Michigan is not running on a zug island steel plant that payed poverty wages and art van stores. The steel plant employed nowhere near 10,000 jobs, 1/10th of that more like. Coronavirus is bringing down all the stocks right now, not specific to Ford.

But whatever enforces the doom fetish people on this site have. I guess that keeps you going for the day.

While I agree with your first sentence. Ford stock is indeed struggling terribly and has been long before coronavirus.

**Seven&wyo** · March-06-20, 11:29 AM

Wow the title to this thread wasn't hyperbolic at all....

**bust** · March-06-20, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Wow the title to this thread wasn't hyperbolic at all....

I would have thought this thread was started by 313WX except there was no mention of a ranking or a list.

**313WX** · March-06-20, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

GM isn't doing all that hot under the surface either.

They continue to exit the world and are virtually putting all of their eggs in the basket of electric cars and autonomous vehicles, despite the fact that the national infrastructure won't be in place to support these products for well over a decade.

**bust** · March-06-20, 12:30 PM

I agree Michigan has some structural issues to resolve.
Many related to government, districting, taxation, and the way tax revenues are allocated.
A lot of others related to segregation and the cultural issues that result. Not unrelated to the issues I previously mentioned above.
Let's fix them.
And don't overlook our strengths, let's not lose them:
Our tradition of worksmanship, entrepreneurialism, our natural resources, and our location on a prime international border.
Manufacturing is critical to our region, but I don't regret the closing of Zug Island. It's about time. An outdated, environmentally and socially irresponsible manufacturing facility like few still exist except for in low wage low regulation countries overseas.
Look forward, and abandon the backward Detroit.
That means figuring out how to profit from selling more than just gas guzzlers.
Rivian, anyone?
We can do this!

**iheartthed** · March-06-20, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by bust

Rivian, anyone?
We can do this!

Right, Rivian is one of the hottest startup stories of 2020.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · March-07-20, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

GM isn't doing all that hot under the surface either.

They continue to exit the world and are virtually putting all of their eggs in the basket of electric cars and autonomous vehicles, despite the fact that the national infrastructure won't be in place to support these products for well over a decade.

Great point. Kinda like putting the cart, before the horse.

**Richard** · March-07-20, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Great point. Kinda like putting the cart, before the horse.

They are not concerned about charging stations,they all took the bailout monies with a condition of production of electric cars by x amount of time.

They do not really have a choice but to go the route they are going,they have to develop and produce them to stick to the agreement,not sure if the consumers ability to actually charge them and use them was included in that agreement.

But maybe the problem can be solved with a gas tax in order to pay for the stations.

For about $21 million, Michigan can build a statewide network of electric vehicle fast-charging stations to meet anticipated demand by 2030.

https://mibiz.com/sections/energy/el...arging-network

That would be the irony of it,tax the people using gasoline in order to pay for electric vehicles that will force them out of their gasoline powered cars.

They could add another 45c per gallon on top of the other 45c they already want,so just round it out to $1 per gallon more.

Who would have thought you could have good roads and charging stations at the same time.

[[sarcasm)

**ParisianLesion** · March-06-20, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

IMO, the recent setting aside of transit legislation changes that would have likely resulted in passing a transit millage is a much bigger problem than any of these.

FoMoCo is not going to go bankrupt. Share value has nothing to do with bankruptcy. The company is still privately controlled and has $37B in cash-on-hand. It faces major challenges right now to be sure but stock price is more indicative of an evolving automotive market and the market's confidence in how Ford is meeting those changes - but saying bankruptcy is just going too far. Remember 2008? Ford Stock was practically junk, in the $1.00 range. Did they go bankrupt or even get a government handout? Nope.

As for ArtVan, they've been out of touch with consumer demand and changing retail for a long time now. Quite frankly, this has been coming for a decade. Also, they aren't even a local company anymore, the VanElslander's smartly took their value out of the company when they sold it to a PE in 2017. ArtVan's liquidation was practically guaranteed when that happened. That's what PEs do. The only real loss here are the employees who, with no disrespect intended for their hardship, should not have a hard time finding an equivalent job in the current economic environment.

For Great Lakes Steel, you can partly thank the man in the white house for that one. However, steel production in the U.S. has been tenuous for some time now and currently particularly susceptible to macro market forces. I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a "pause" than a true end to production at this facility. But either way, these workers aren't going to have a hard time finding other work either. A lot of this has more to do with a shifting economy than some sort of "implosion."