Peter Karmanos lobbying for Kwame Kilpatrick Pardon...

**Richard** · February-20-20, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Based on this I am assuming you would like to see Kwame out then? It's odd you didn't say that.

Do you feel that the crimes that Kwame committed are comparable to attempting to sell a seat?

Some May view it as one crime long term directly impacted the citizens and an entire city paying the price for the actions, verses another that only impacted the one committing the offense.

There is not even any comparable relevance in the two.

It is funny how fast some let out that they actually know the definition of Illegal and want to see and support consequences for actions.

Remember that.

**iheartthed** · February-20-20, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

You're not thinking this thoroughly at all. Dampening enthusiasm is not worth pissing off his base and voters in Macomb. It would look horrible for Trump to do anything in favor of a corrupted democrat.

Trump playing 4d chess with a Kwame pardon or commutation doesn't make nearly as much sense and you're trying to argue.

Trump supporters in Macomb County aren't going to revolt over him pardoning Kwame. As he said, he can shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and his supporters would stick with him.

**bartocktoo** · February-20-20, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Do you feel that the crimes that Kwame committed are comparable to attempting to sell a seat?

Some May view it as one crime long term directly impacted the citizens and an entire city paying the price for the actions, verses another that only impacted the one committing the offense.

There is not even any comparable relevance in the two.

It is funny how fast some let out that they actually know the definition of Illegal and want to see and support consequences for actions.

Remember that.

Are you serious? They were both convicted of public corruption. Blago's ultimate burn was trying to buy Obama's vacant seat, but My God read up on this stuff. What a joke. You've created your own double standard.

And I'm one who thinks that Kwame was just as corrupt as Blago [[see what I did there?) and got a sentence that was too long. But it was his roll of the dice that got him his long sentence. If Trump does something with it, so be it. But it's all a joke to me.

**Richard** · February-20-20, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Are you serious? They were both convicted of public corruption. Blago's ultimate burn was trying to buy Obama's vacant seat, but My God read up on this stuff. What a joke. You've created your own double standard.

And I'm one who thinks that Kwame was just as corrupt as Blago [[see what I did there?) and got a sentence that was too long. But it was his roll of the dice that got him his long sentence. If Trump does something with it, so be it. But it's all a joke to me.

Blagojevich is accused by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald of trying to sell President Obama’s vacated Senate seat to the highest bidder.

Not for nothing but if you are going to post “ My God Read up on this stuff”
you might want to follow your own advise.

How is it a double standard? Crimes are judged every day based on impact to the public.

**Meddle** · February-20-20, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Even if true, I'd suggest that Trump has done his in the most politically motivated way. And he has mentioned [[threatened?) more high-profile pardons/commutations based on people and situations directly related to him.

When Don get trounced in November, be very, very afraid of what he'll do. We've already seen how little he respects laws he doesn't like. Expect some very bad people to be released.

**Ray1936** · February-20-20, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Do you feel that the crimes that Kwame committed are comparable to attempting to sell a seat?

Retired in 1984 from DPD after 29 years. Kwame destroyed my retirement health care and badly damaged my pension. I hope the son of a bitch rots in hell for eternity. Otherwise, I have no problems with him.

**Seven&wyo** · February-20-20, 06:15 PM

[QUOTE=Richard;587120]

I would say Carter giving pardons to 500,000 Vietnam war draft dodgers would classify as a pardon spree.The got to live while the ones that followed the law came home in a pine box.

Are you really comparing the corruption of Kwame Kilpatrick and a bunch of people who didn't want to fight in a meaningless war?

**Richard** · February-20-20, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=Seven&wyo;587205]

Originally Posted by Richard

I would say Carter giving pardons to 500,000 Vietnam war draft dodgers would classify as a pardon spree.The got to live while the ones that followed the law came home in a pine box.

Are you really comparing the corruption of Kwame Kilpatrick and a bunch of people who didn't want to fight in a meaningless war?

no but you are,because in context my reply was about pardon sprees 11 pardons does not constitute a spree in comparison to the past history.

Maybe some would consider the number of 11 pardons a spree but personally I would lean more towards the 500,000 number classifying as a spree.

But then again what defines a spree in the numerical sense?

Maybe If they had been there to back their fellow Americans up,it would not have been so meaningless,it was not a volunteer draft and as some are making it clear here a crime is a crime and there should be no distinction between the severity of.

**Gistok** · February-20-20, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Maybe If they had been there to back their fellow Americans up,it would not have been so meaningless,it was not a volunteer draft and as some are making it clear here a crime is a crime and there should be no distinction between the severity of.

You know something Richard... sometimes you spout little more than utter crap....

Today we buy products from the wonderful communist country of Vietnam... to sell in our dollar stores as junk. This is through a treaty with the same government that sent over 58,000 American young men to their graves. But that's OK with you because the ones that moved to Canada or evaded being sent to be slaughtered are the ones you find fault with. Of course not everyone had a doctor like "bone spurs" did that could be bribed to lie about why they didn't get sent over there.

The rich were able to buy an excuse [[or college deferment) while those less economically fortunate had to either be slaughtered, come back with PTSD, or try to survive by not going in the first place and being labeled a traitor.

Funny how that works if you don't have the economic resources to buy yourself out of that quagmire.

**Richard** · February-20-20, 09:27 PM

^ talk about spouting crap,you used the word traitor.

I enlisted 3 years after the end of that war and still could not walk down the street in uniform without getting harassed,so while you blame the government others blamed anybody in uniform and made it clear,so not only did they bail on their responsibility they choose to make everybody else pay.

I was more comfortable getting shot at in Somalia at that time,then I was in uniform in my own country,at least the Somalians has a reason outside of they did not feel like doing something.

Lest you forget it was about saving people from communism and helping those who could not help themselves,to bad they were all rounded up and shot after the US pulled out,it was not the governments fault that the public wanted a political war,how come they ran to Canada and not Cuba ?

Some seem to have a habit of wanting to embrace socialism and communism without having to actually live in it.

Their job was to spread communism our job was to prevent it,it is not rocket science and anybody that disagrees with it has always been welcome in Russia or Cuba,funny thing is people do not seem to be tripping over themselves to move there.

What would have happened during WW2 if 500,000 decided to flee to Canada or say I am not going because I do not agree with it.

I doubt over the last 2000 years Anybody has agreed with war if you believe in your country,you answer the call.

If you do not believe in your country then why hang around in a place that you do not believe in.

The US is not here for my personal pleasure,it is my duty to make sure future generations have the same rights and liberties as the past generations made sure for my time here.

That is how it works,well,some think the country is here for their benefit and it owes them something as an individual.

It would have been funny if after the twin towers the military stood down and said,well we do not feel comfortable with this.

But they did not,they also answered the call and gave their lives so you can sleep at night,if you cannot understand it,you never will.

**Seven&wyo** · February-20-20, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

^
But they did not,they also answered the call and gave their lives so you can sleep at night,if you cannot understand it,you never will.

Aha they gave their lives so billionaires and corrupt politicians could make money off the military industrial complex and a little thing called oil. Our democracy hasn't been threatened since WWII everything since then has been about securing power and money fighting proxy wars. This country doesn't give a fuck about the innocent people living under communism or even being murdered in a genocide.

**Richard** · February-21-20, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Aha they gave their lives so billionaires and corrupt politicians could make money off the military industrial complex and a little thing called oil. Our democracy hasn't been threatened since WWII everything since then has been about securing power and money fighting proxy wars. This country doesn't give a fuck about the innocent people living under communism or even being murdered in a genocide.

So name one military intervention that was based on oil.

80s and 90s 70% of our oil cane from Venezuela,no US military boots on the ground.

80% of Saudi crude goes directly to the shipping industry so we can import cheap goods.

Afghanistan started out as a over the border tiny land locked country that had a pipeline going to the port that the rebel’s liked to blow up,do not forget Russia was already there fighting because the rentals were selling the stolen pipeline oil in order to fund terrorism.

It was not about the oil anywhere,we provided military assistance for lots of reasons,mostly because dictatorships have a history of slaughtering those that do not agree with them and exchange they paid the bill with oil.

Ever see anybody boycott petro products or give up their car or electricity because they do not agree with war?

I meen you always hear people taking that stance but when it comes to the sacrifice for what they believe in,they seem to fall short.

Kinda like boycotting China for human rights abuses while filling your house with their products.

Children are mining cobalt 18 hours a day in Africa,nobody seems to have a problem with that because it gives them cell phones and the politics of green wants them to work 20 hours a day instead.

You do not see any Americans sending their kids to the mines.

Do not like the military complex that dumps billions into the economy and are adamant that wars are about oil?

Stand up for what you believe in and stop using products produced from petroleum,driving cars,heating your house,buying food,because without petro the farmers cannot farm.

My experience is those who are the most vocal against something are the ones least likely to actually take a solid committed stand.

Stop supporting human rights abuses in China by stop buying their products or stop complaining about it.

Stop perceived wars for petro by stopping the use of petro products,see how easy it is.

True OUR democracy has not been threatened outside of the US sense WW2 because we already showed that most will protect it at any cost,while others showed that they will run.

It is just like all the ones who said they were going to move to Canada if a certain candidate won in 2016,did they actually believe in what they were saying ?

They would not know what standing up for what you believe in if it dropped out of the sky on them as a grand piano.

Freedom is not free and you can see some will run when it comes time to protect it but they do not have a problem enjoying it while they are there.

At the end of the day people only protest things like war,genocide human rights abuses etc because it is easy to do without putting skin in the game for a resolution.

Because they actually do not have to do anything in order to say they stand for something.

**Metro25** · February-21-20, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Aha they gave their lives so billionaires and corrupt politicians could make money off the military industrial complex and a little thing called oil. Our democracy hasn't been threatened since WWII everything since then has been about securing power and money fighting proxy wars. This country doesn't give a fuck about the innocent people living under communism or even being murdered in a genocide.

Amen

**Meddle** · February-21-20, 05:30 AM

The recent travesty of justice is more serious because it's mostly about public corruption, stealing from the people, something The Don has been doing for most of his life. He's establishing a pattern that stealing from the people isn't wrong in his eyes. He's thumbing his nose at the courts by releasing people who in fact did commit crimes and were justly convicted and have not in any way even attempted to redeem themselves.

And then there was Arizona Joe, the most corrupt, hateful and racist sheriff in the nation.

**bartocktoo** · February-21-20, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

Blagojevich is accused by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald of trying to sell President Obama’s vacated Senate seat to the highest bidder.

Not for nothing but if you are going to post “ My God Read up on this stuff”
you might want to follow your own advise.

How is it a double standard? Crimes are judged every day based on impact to the public.

Oh read up on Blago, Richey. You don't win this argument. Read, man, read.

**Richard** · February-21-20, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Oh read up on Blago, Richey. You don't win this argument. Read, man, read.

Its not about winning arguments,you posted he was trying to buy the seat,then told me to read,he was selling the seat,if you had read up,you would have known that.

He was convicted of one charge compared to Kwans 24 that he was convicted on,corruption,bribery,extortion,tax evasion etc.

Outside of the corruption change there is no comparison in the two cases,they are miles apart and not even taking into consideration victim impact.

One was a victim of his own stupidity while the other created 100s of thousands of victims. Big difference.

**Seven&wyo** · February-21-20, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

So name one military intervention that was based on oil.

80s and 90s 70% of our oil cane from Venezuela,no US military boots on the ground.

80% of Saudi crude goes directly to the shipping industry so we can import cheap goods.

Afghanistan started out as a over the border tiny land locked country that had a pipeline going to the port that the rebel’s liked to blow up,do not forget Russia was already there fighting because the rentals were selling the stolen pipeline oil in order to fund terrorism.

It was not about the oil anywhere,we provided military assistance for lots of reasons,mostly because dictatorships have a history of slaughtering those that do not agree with them and exchange they paid the bill with oil.

Ever see anybody boycott petro products or give up their car or electricity because they do not agree with war?

I meen you always hear people taking that stance but when it comes to the sacrifice for what they believe in,they seem to fall short.

Kinda like boycotting China for human rights abuses while filling your house with their products.

Children are mining cobalt 18 hours a day in Africa,nobody seems to have a problem with that because it gives them cell phones and the politics of green wants them to work 20 hours a day instead.

You do not see any Americans sending their kids to the mines.

Do not like the military complex that dumps billions into the economy and are adamant that wars are about oil?

Stand up for what you believe in and stop using products produced from petroleum,driving cars,heating your house,buying food,because without petro the farmers cannot farm.

My experience is those who are the most vocal against something are the ones least likely to actually take a solid committed stand.

Stop supporting human rights abuses in China by stop buying their products or stop complaining about it.

Stop perceived wars for petro by stopping the use of petro products,see how easy it is.

True OUR democracy has not been threatened outside of the US sense WW2 because we already showed that most will protect it at any cost,while others showed that they will run.

It is just like all the ones who said they were going to move to Canada if a certain candidate won in 2016,did they actually believe in what they were saying ?

They would not know what standing up for what you believe in if it dropped out of the sky on them as a grand piano.

Freedom is not free and you can see some will run when it comes time to protect it but they do not have a problem enjoying it while they are there.

At the end of the day people only protest things like war,genocide human rights abuses etc because it is easy to do without putting skin in the game for a resolution.

Because they actually do not have to do anything in order to say they stand for something.

Wow I've never met someone that actually buys this bullshit patriotism propaganda. Since WWII every military life that's been lost was lost for money. The same government you're propping up is the same government that doesn't give a fuck about you or any other soldier.

**Richard** · February-21-20, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Wow I've never met someone that actually buys this bullshit patriotism propaganda. Since WWII every military life that's been lost was lost for money. The same government you're propping up is the same government that doesn't give a fuck about you or any other soldier.

That stands to reason,325 million in the country with 1.2 million actively serving in the military excluding coast guard.

Because you never met anybody that is patriotic to their country speaks more of the circles that you hang out in.

You prop up the same government that you dislike with every paycheck,if you hate the country and government so much why stick around?

There is a world of opportunity out there.

**bartocktoo** · February-21-20, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Its not about winning arguments,you posted he was trying to buy the seat,then told me to read,he was selling the seat,if you had read up,you would have known that.

He was convicted of one charge compared to Kwans 24 that he was convicted on,corruption,bribery,extortion,tax evasion etc.

Outside of the corruption change there is no comparison in the two cases,they are miles apart and not even taking into consideration victim impact.

One was a victim of his own stupidity while the other created 100s of thousands of victims. Big difference.

Little advice, Ritchie, don't start circular arguments with people who can draw a straight line. I don't need to waste my time laying waste to your latest round of...waste. Have a good weekend.

**Richard** · February-21-20, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Little advice, Ritchie, don't start circular arguments with people who can draw a straight line. I don't need to waste my time laying waste to your latest round of...waste. Have a good weekend.

You are anonymous poster on the Internet who does not understand context and how it applies to a discussion,let alone know the difference between a buyer and seller and how it relates in the legal system.

Nothing personal but if you are going down the road of giving advice maybe try selling tarot card readings on the television,you will have the same impact.

You sound like you are a young salesperson who starts their day out in a power meeting with your leader telling you that you are a winner,now go get them,or maybe closer to a telemarketer.

Mature adults usually do not provide advice that they show they do not follow themselves,hopefully you will recognize that as you also mature.

Sorry slick the only thing you accomplished is what you created in your mind,maybe working with those little toys where they put the plastic shapes in thier corresponding compartments,then work up to the straight line,you are not there yet.

I will enjoy my weekend,even though it will be a breezy freezing 55 outside,I hope you will enjoy yours also.

**leapfrog** · February-22-20, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

That stands to reason,325 million in the country with 1.2 million actively serving in the military excluding coast guard.

Because you never met anybody that is patriotic to their country speaks more of the circles that you hang out in.

You prop up the same government that you dislike with every paycheck,if you hate the country and government so much why stick around?

There is a world of opportunity out there.

Nationalism is not patriotism. Yet for some, they confuse the two. When those who are confused are confronted, the usual reaction is the "love it or leave it" mentality.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran and I certainly can tell the difference when I see it. I SERVED because I wanted to SERVE my country, not to project it's military and economic interests around the globe.

**bust** · February-22-20, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by leapfrog

Nationalism is not patriotism. Yet for some, they confuse the two. When those who are confused are confronted, the usual reaction is the "love it or leave it" mentality.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran and I certainly can tell the difference when I see it. I SERVED because I wanted to SERVE my country, not to project it's military and economic interests around the globe.

Thank you!

**Richard** · February-22-20, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by leapfrog

Nationalism is not patriotism. Yet for some, they confuse the two. When those who are confused are confronted, the usual reaction is the "love it or leave it" mentality.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran and I certainly can tell the difference when I see it. I SERVED because I wanted to SERVE my country, not to project it's military and economic interests around the globe.

Highly unlikely that while serving,you told your superiors where and when you would choose to serve.

The military is not a democracy and when they tell you where you are going it is not a debate and you do not get to say,gee I do not agree with that,I think I will sit this one out.

So you just had Bust agree with you on something that would never happen.

It does not even make sense,nobody wants to go into battle,as a veteran you would know better then that,you signed a contract when you sign up,they own you and nobody has the freedom of telling them what you are going to do as an individual.It does not work that way.

Read the reports of the two warships that collided with civilian freighters in the harbors.

With both ships the captains and XO were relieved of command and demoted because they allowed the crew to do what ever they wanted on the ship,with the worst part being the electronics warfare personnel had meals and soft drinks sitting on top of multi million dollar electronic warfare equipment.

In a battle situation both of those ships and their crews would have been sunk and dead,maybe you served in a similar situation where the crews controlled the ship and there was zero chain of command.

How does one of the most advanced warships in the world that cost a billion dollars run into a another ship in the harbor?

Because it was crewed by people with that mindset of what suited them best and it got 7 of their shipmates killed,that’s the way it works,it is never the one that screwed up that gets killed it is the bystanders that pay the price.

In the military you have to be prepared to do battle at any given second,it is called readiness,and it does not work if half of the force is standing there debating whether or not they agree with the actions.

Lots of non committed people in the military,if you are in the military those are the ones that you do not want to be even near you because they will get you killed before the enemy does.

Why even sign up if you are not prepared to go all the way?

**Cincinnati_Kid** · February-24-20, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

^ yes I am sure you guys are looking forward to 4 more years,you should try impeachment to get him out of office,it will give you something to do to get your mind off of him.

Imagine if he wins and flips the house,it has happened before.Then what?

I know you're hoping for that to happen Richard, since you're one of his biggest cheerleaders. I can't stand the guy, I hope he loses. He's a liar, he's racist, he's arrogant, divisive, and he thinks he can get away with anything he wants.

**bartocktoo** · February-24-20, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

You are anonymous poster on the Internet who does not understand context and how it applies to a discussion,let alone know the difference between a buyer and seller and how it relates in the legal system.

Nothing personal but if you are going down the road of giving advice maybe try selling tarot card readings on the television,you will have the same impact.

You sound like you are a young salesperson who starts their day out in a power meeting with your leader telling you that you are a winner,now go get them,or maybe closer to a telemarketer.

Mature adults usually do not provide advice that they show they do not follow themselves,hopefully you will recognize that as you also mature.

Sorry slick the only thing you accomplished is what you created in your mind,maybe working with those little toys where they put the plastic shapes in thier corresponding compartments,then work up to the straight line,you are not there yet.

I will enjoy my weekend,even though it will be a breezy freezing 55 outside,I hope you will enjoy yours also.

Tarot card readings on television? I hope you didn't spend too much time thinking about that one. And it was a lovely weekend, wasn't it?