Coronavirus: Threat Beyond Politics [For Political Discussions of CoV]

[rb336]

You first. If people are gonna claim 90,000 - 100,000 deaths,.. I wanna see proof.

It's called coroners' reports.

I know of people that went into the hospital for other things,.. then were diagnosed with covid [[but were never allowed to see any proof),. then treated for the thing they actually went in for and released.

Never having any symptoms of covid.

God, you really are just that ignorant. Any patient, by law, has the right to review all medical tests. Also, LOTS of people have covid and are asymptomatic. Its the way many diseases work.

That lie was handy though,... because otherwise the hospital wouldn't have gotten paid,.. and the sick people wouldn't have gotten much treatment.

Hospitals are LOSING MONEY from this. $13K is a) an exaggeration and b) not much for the expense of intensive care.

[Bigdd]

It's called coroners' reports.

Soooo,.. now everyone that dies gets an autopsy? LOL

I think that if you look it up, you'll find that well under 5% of people over 60 get an autopsy. And that's during normal times.

Autopsies are normally done when the death is sudden or violent,.. or the cause of death cannot be determined. If a doctor writes down Emphysema, smoking, diabetes, Covid, high-blood pressure,.... then the Coroner will not be doing an autopsy.

They "may" [[if they had the available testing kits) do a nose swab to determine IF they had Covid,.. but that won't determine if Covid is what CAUSED the death.

Hospitals are LOSING MONEY from this. $13K is a) an exaggeration and b) not much for the expense of intensive care.

Very true. Their income is down 50%. Most are ghost-towns. So you gotta ask yourself.... if a business is hemorrhaging money,.. do they have more or less incentive to pad the bill?

I'm not saying I blame them,.. and people getting care they wouldn't otherwise get is fine in a way,... but that also means a reasonable person has reason to suspect the accuracy of the death numbers.

[Richard]

Florida just changed testing companies after they found out 8000 tests provided inaccurate results.

So really,who is to say who has it or not?

It was $13 k for regular and $38k if somebody needed critical care reimbursement.

[Bigdd]

During the hearing Friday morning in the Court of Claims,.. where the court heard the case of the State Legislature V.S. Governor Whittmer,.. regarding whether the Governor has the power to repeatedly give herself State of Emergency Powers,.. the governor's side got hammered.

They seemed to have no defense at all. Their attorney [[who is a really good attorney from a reputable firm) could only stammer when asked to defend their position. Like what happens when their side hasn't as leg to stand on.

Most pundits were expecting a decision from the judge right there and then,.. but the judge chose to issue her ruling at a later time. Seems a slam-dunk for the legislature.

Of course this is going to the state Supreme Court. Which is one of the reasons people were expecting the judge to rule quickly [[so that the process can happen fast.)

[aj3647]

Soooo,.. now everyone that dies gets an autopsy? LOL

Everyone who dies gets a death certificate that lists a cause of death, signed by a physician. This gets reported to the state for the purposes of collecting vital statistics. Since a death certificate is a legal government document, knowingly falsifying it is a crime. Physicians who knowingly lie about the cause of death not only open themselves up to legal/criminal liability, but also revocation of their medical license.

Physicians determine cause of death based on the medical evidence, the totality of the circumstances surrounding the patient condition at the time of death, and their best professional judgement.

If YOU have evidence that tens of thousands of physicians across America are intentionally falsifying death certificates, both violating their oath of medical ethics AND risking their livelihoods in the process, then I would love to see it. Would you be able to provide?

[Zacha341]

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Update

[Honky Tonk]

It's called coroners' reports.




God, you really are just that ignorant. Any patient, by law, has the right to review all medical tests. Also, LOTS of people have covid and are asymptomatic. Its the way many diseases work.



Hospitals are LOSING MONEY from this. $13K is a) an exaggeration and b) not much for the expense of intensive care.

I get that you're a bit of a whiner, but you've obviously never worked in a hospital, dealt with the AMA, or reviewed your hospital bill. First and foremost, their job is making money, period. The fact that thousands of the employees became infected because the first line of defense was ill prepared is proof. The reason hospitals are in the hole is because they cancelled elective surgeries, laid off and terminated employees. Now the rest of the population is scared to death to walk into a possibly infected area, and end up worse than they were. Solution? Pad the bill and put up "Thank You For Coming In Today" lawn signs. Other than that, you probably work in hospital administration.

[aj3647]

The fact that thousands of the employees became infected because the first line of defense was ill prepared is proof.

So your thesis is that there were N95s-a-plenty in late March and early April and hospitals across Michigan purposefully chose NOT to buy them to save money?

Because the cost of some N95s totally outweighs the costs of lost productivity from losing staff to COVID, having to pay overtime costs to the rest of the staff to pick up the slack, and having to continue to pay the salaries of the staff who were on 14-days of quarantine even though they were no longer working?

You might want to crunch those numbers again. I'd also like to see your proof that the whole PPE shortage thing was just a fake news conspiracy, because every hospital, state government, the federal government, and every PPE supplier in America said that it was very very very real and severe, but perhaps you have some insider information to blow up this massive conspiracy. I'm open-minded, I would love to see your evidence that the PPE shortage wasn't real and it was just a vast conspiracy.

[GMan]

Some hospitals had an ample supply. Some didn't. There was a supply available to purchase.
Hospitals did limit N95 use to procedures that were aerosolized generating to preserve supplies as the crunch hit as well as use disinfecting procedures on the previously disposable masks.
Some institutions were prepared some weren't.

[Honky Tonk]

So your thesis is that there were N95s-a-plenty in late March and early April and hospitals across Michigan purposefully chose NOT to buy them to save money?

Because the cost of some N95s totally outweighs the costs of lost productivity from losing staff to COVID, having to pay overtime costs to the rest of the staff to pick up the slack, and having to continue to pay the salaries of the staff who were on 14-days of quarantine even though they were no longer working?

You might want to crunch those numbers again. I'd also like to see your proof that the whole PPE shortage thing was just a fake news conspiracy, because every hospital, state government, the federal government, and every PPE supplier in America said that it was very very very real and severe, but perhaps you have some insider information to blow up this massive conspiracy. I'm open-minded, I would love to see your evidence that the PPE shortage wasn't real and it was just a vast conspiracy.

I'm going by what I've read, I haven't seen their books yet. So the hospitals were right, in your opinion? Why be prepared? Wait to see if there's a pandemic first, and then, just order them from China. Now they're really in the hole. This was penny pinching, and it bit them on the keister. Don't be an ass, half the things you're interjecting, I never said.

[aj3647]

Some hospitals had an ample supply. Some didn't. There was a supply available to purchase.
Hospitals did limit N95 use to procedures that were aerosolized generating to preserve supplies as the crunch hit as well as use disinfecting procedures on the previously disposable masks.
Some institutions were prepared some weren't.

A limited supply available to purchase and nowhere near enough to meet the demonstrated need.
-That's why we saw states competing against each other for supplies, paying inflated prices up to 10-15x the normal cost of an N95.
-That's why the National Reserve Stockpile had to be utilized to distribute supplies to the states.
-That's why the Defense Production Act had to be [[eventually, long after it was needed) utilized to produce more PPE.
-That's why some hospitals and doctors had to literally turn to the black market to obtain PPE.
-That's why we saw staff re-using N95s or "disinfecting" them using procedures that were not proven to be fully safe and not approved by the manufacturer or the government.
-That's why we saw staff wearing garbage bags instead of gowns, and surgical masks where N95s were indicated, and even wearing "homemade" PPE because at least something was better than nothing.

These are absolutely NOT things that would ever need to happen if the supply was sufficient. As for the use of disinfecting procedures, that was a desperation tactic born out of extreme necessity and it remains to be seen how effective it is at maintaining staff safety and integrity of the PPE itself. Disposable PPE was never designed or intended to be re-used like that.

I doubt there was an institution anywhere in Michigan that was truly prepared for a once-in-a-century pandemic like this. NOBODY stocks PPE to that extreme of an extent, because PPE has a shelf life and it expires. Those that were able to weather the storm better than others were simply those whose case load was more manageable. Even University of Michigan Health System, the highest ranked in Michigan, had critical PPE shortages [[their nursing staff literally picketed in the streets to demand more PPE) and they were in Washtenaw County which was exponentially less hard hit than Wayne County.

[aj3647]

I'm going by what I've read, I haven't seen their books yet. So the hospitals were right, in your opinion? Why be prepared? Wait to see if there's a pandemic first, and then, just order them from China. Now they're really in the hole. This was penny pinching, and it bit them on the keister. Don't be an ass, half the things you're interjecting, I never said.

Lol, it's "penny pinching" even though you're "just going off of what you read" and "haven't looked at their books." Well I guess you reading shit online makes you the expert! Who needs data and evidence when Honky Tonk has read tons of blogs on the subject! Data and facts are for liberal pansies!

Here, let me help you out. Hospitals don't typically stock supplies sufficient to respond to what is quite literally a ONCE-IN-A-CENTURY pandemic. That's like saying the average American family should have 5-10 years of food supplies on hand in the event of a nuclear attack or World War III or a total collapse of society. Who is prepared to that extent? PPE has a shelf life, if you don't use it, it can go bad, so hospitals typically DON'T stock 100,000 N95 masks as a matter of course.

This is why we're supposed to have redundancy built into the system. That's why we have a National Reserve Stockpile for this very reason. And yes, Obama should have restocked it. And yes, Trump should have also restocked it during the three years he was President prior to the pandemic. So the system failed there. And this is also why we have the Defense Production Act, to ramp up supply in the event of an emergency, and Trump refused to utilize it in a timely fashion when it was sorely needed so there's another failure.

Yes hospitals could have done more to be prepared locally, but to pin the blame solely on hospitals systems for not adequately being able to deal with a pandemic the likes of which we haven't seen since the Spanish Flu seems to me like a cop out, and your attempt to deflect blame from others based on politics. This is EXACTLY the type of scenario for which government exists and our government failed us in spectacular fashion.

[GMan]

A limited supply available to purchase and nowhere near enough to meet the demonstrated need.
-That's why we saw states competing against each other for supplies, paying inflated prices up to 10-15x the normal cost of an N95.
-That's why the National Reserve Stockpile had to be utilized to distribute supplies to the states.
-That's why the Defense Production Act had to be [[eventually, long after it was needed) utilized to produce more PPE.
-That's why some hospitals and doctors had to literally turn to the black market to obtain PPE.
-That's why we saw staff re-using N95s or "disinfecting" them using procedures that were not proven to be fully safe and not approved by the manufacturer or the government.
-That's why we saw staff wearing garbage bags instead of gowns, and surgical masks where N95s were indicated, and even wearing "homemade" PPE because at least something was better than nothing.

These are absolutely NOT things that would ever need to happen if the supply was sufficient. As for the use of disinfecting procedures, that was a desperation tactic born out of extreme necessity and it remains to be seen how effective it is at maintaining staff safety and integrity of the PPE itself. Disposable PPE was never designed or intended to be re-used like that.

I doubt there was an institution anywhere in Michigan that was truly prepared for a once-in-a-century pandemic like this. NOBODY stocks PPE to that extreme of an extent, because PPE has a shelf life and it expires. Those that were able to weather the storm better than others were simply those whose case load was more manageable. Even University of Michigan Health System, the highest ranked in Michigan, had critical PPE shortages [[their nursing staff literally picketed in the streets to demand more PPE) and they were in Washtenaw County which was exponentially less hard hit than Wayne County.

Actually the disinfectant procedures were vetted years ago as effective. The use on masks was the variable that had to be demonstrated and it was.

Don't use the Nurses picketing as the determinate that there was a shortage of PPE. They were demonstrating to protect their rights to use protection not because of a shortage.
The hospitals protocols said an N95 is not necessary unless the procedure generates aerosolized particles. Staff wanted to wear them full time. That would have used them unnecessarily and depleted the supply. Only the very front line needed them in the ER and once testing for presence of the virus became widespread, the use of N95 went back to previous use protocols.
I know of a nurse that quit at a hospital that did have a shortage. Picketing that situation wouldn't have helped. Personal Protection takes personal initiative.

[oladub]

Here’s how the CAREs Act $2.3T was distributed
Each dot below represents on billion dollars, rounded

[Bigdd]

The vast majority of hospitals were not short of PPE. The only one I am aware of is the VA.

The hospital admins were simply not giving out their PPE. Probably for a few reasons.

One being that the media hype had made them think there was a huge wave coming,.. and they didn't want to give out all of their PPE too soon. That huge wave ended up not materializing.

Also, by crying poor, the hospitals could get lots of free PPE from the govt and donations, instead of having to pay for it.

We donated tens of thousands worth.

Early on the local hospital system was offered a huge shipment at almost pre-crisis prices,.. and they turned it down !

The nurses I know found out their respective hospitals never got low at all [[even though the nurses, my wife etc had been up nights sewing their own masks, and having to use one all day [[instead of one every 2 hours like normal). When their admins realized it was dying down,.. they started providing the stuff out of their storage rooms.

[Richard]

Just 30 days ago people were laughing at herd immunity.

Lo and behold scientists have discovered that once infected and recovered and then you get infected again,you cannot spread the virus anymore.

Many were saying that from the start,everybody gets infected and after they recover they can no longer spread the virus,so lock down to prevent a spread that you cannot and all you have done is stretch the time period out.

[Bigdd]

,so lock down to prevent a spread that you cannot and all you have done is stretch the time period out.

Yep,.. the smart people were saying right from the start that we need to lock down the high-risk groups.

But the politicians instead locked down everyone,... and NY State Health
officials even forbid retirement homes from keeping out Covid infected people. So now they have some 10,000 dead in New Jersey and New York nursing homes. A full 11% of all US deaths.

[oladub]

Groups at Higher Risk for Severe Illness[[list)

Living in places that voted for Hillary Clinton is as much of a Covid-19 risk factor as having high blood pressure and being obese and should be included in the above list.

Of lifestyle choices-

"U.S. counties that voted for Democrat Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential election reported 39 coronavirus deaths per 100,000 residents, according to an analysis of demographic and public health data.
In counties that voted for Republican Donald Trump, 13 of every 100,000 people had died from the virus. "

"Michigan counties that backed Clinton in 2016 collectively have reported 79 deaths for every 100,000 people. Counties that backed Trump have reported 25 deaths per 100,000."

[aj3647]

You mean the counties where all the people live and have the highest population density and also are host to major international airports had a higher rate of an infectious disease, compared to rural areas where there are more cows than people? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I TELLS YA!!!

But you're right, Oladub, "lifestyle choices" and Presidential voting preferences are interesting to look at...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2685627

https://www.medpagetoday.com/washing...coverage/73642

[oladub]

You mean the counties where all the people live and have the highest population density and also are host to major international airports had a higher rate of an infectious disease, compared to rural areas where there are more cows than people? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I TELLS YA!!!

But you're right, Oladub, "lifestyle choices" and Presidential voting preferences are interesting to look at...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2685627

https://www.medpagetoday.com/washing...coverage/73642

First, thank you for the article linking opioid use with Republicans in areas where jobs have been sent to China by your globalist friends who take ski trips to Europa and bring back Covid-19 then listen to Mayor de Blasio implore them to hang out in Chinatown because, you know, Trump is xenophobic because he reduced air travel from China. By the way, "most illicit synthetic opioids – like fentanyl – are produced in China and trafficked from overseas. Most fentanyl produced in China is either sold online by Chinese distributors and shipped directly to the U.S. by postal mail, or delivered to Mexico and then smuggled into the U.S." Also, thank your Democratic friends for supporting globalism, keeping tariffs low, letting pharmaceuticals be manufactured abroad and keeping Chinese postal rates low. It all helps get rid of that basket of despicables. Not producing our own N-95 masks and depending on China as our source probably kills more Democrats though.

More importantly, this thread being about Covid-19, living in a red or blue area is a choice for many people not constrained by family or job ties. In Madison WI, the new Mayor is from New York City. Her campaign goals for Madison were to greatly increase the use of mass transit and build higher density housing. Becoming more like the most Covid-19 infested place on earth was a choice made by the majority of Madison's Democratic voters. Even within Wisconsin or Michigan, the most Covid-19 infested places are Democratic areas. In Wisconsin, we just had an election and wouldn't you guess it, the only places there were lines were in Milwaukee and Green Bay where Democratic election officials shut down most voting precincts and made everyone who hadn't used mail in absentee ballots [[over 2/3 of Wisconsin voters did) stand in long lines during a pandemic.

The county I used to live in in WI has only two cases of Covid-19 the last I checked. People there, as in the UP, have a hard time understanding why they have to go bankrupt because of Democrats who, as you suggested, live in higher density places like Milwaukee. It is about choices. However, your dis about all the cows is a little off the mark. The cattle population on family run farms has been partially displaced by highly subsidized California corporate dairy farms often using cheaper illegal foreign labor tolerated and encouraged again by Democrats.

Again, the title of my Reuters article was, Divided by COVID-19: Democratic U.S. areas hit three times as hard as Republican ones.

[Honky Tonk]

Urgent Care...


https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-he...nths-reschedul

[Richard]

^ says page not found

see how quick they regulate the news.

[Jimaz]

Urgent Care...


https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-he...nths-reschedul

Link repair:

Backlogged surgeries from coronavirus shutdown could take months to reschedule

[Richard]

You know all of this statistical reporting reeks of gender discrimination.

They list male and female deaths,what about the 72 other genders,are they immune?

We should demand better.

[Honky Tonk]

Link repair:

Backlogged surgeries from coronavirus shutdown could take months to reschedule

It worked during rehearsal?!?! Thanx!