UM to Partner with Gilbert on Innovation Center at Fail Jail Site

[Gistok]

^ I was going to ask if it was possible for the People Mover to have [in railroad jargon] "points"... see image.

But then I realize that at the Time Square Station, where the PM maintenance garage is, they already have "points"... to switch over from the PM route to the PM garage, and back again.

So this is existing technology, and could be used for a spur off the main line.

Hypothetically, you could have a 1 lane spur going off at Gratiot and/or Jefferson that would go away from downtown.

The Gratiot spur could go as far as St. Joseph's Church on Gratiot... with Fail Jail, Brewery Park, Eastern Market, and St. Joseph [Lafayette Park North] stations... and return via the same tracks.

A Jefferson spur could have Dequindre Cut/Lafayetee Park South, River Place/Chene Park, Harbortown, Belle Isle, Van Dyke/West Village, and Gold Coast stations... and return via the same tracks.

By using the same tracks, it would cut the price in half of a double track route.

[Jason]

When I think of single tracked train systems the one that comes to mind is the Shonan Monorail.

It's a hanging monorail, which is single tracked except for at stations, most of which have island platforms. The double track at the stations are the passing sidings which let trains coming from opposite directions pass each other.

https://youtu.be/YQbFTxpnGZY?t=171

Without the passing sidings, simple back and forth shuttle service is too infrequent for normal use. The issue is though, the more passing sidings you add, the more switches and guideway complexity you add, and that adds to the cost and before long it makes more sense to just double track it. It would be worth looking into though.


Although where single tracking imo does come into play is having 24 hour service on an extended People Mover. From my understanding, if you do the wiring so that you can turn off the electricity on certain parts of the system without turning it off on the rest, then you can have workers safely doing maintenance while trains operate around them.

There would be two alternating night services. The current Times Square station has an island platform [[although I haven't checked to see how long the unused platform is). The new hypothetical Ren Cen station would be an island platform. The same concept would apply to a Gratiot extension, although the concept runs into problems with multiple extensions at once. Anyway, only the two stations would be active at night, in order to keep service consistent for riders between nights, and to keep the trains moving fast through the loop.



If the train doesn't have 24 hour service, then it means you have to run special night bus service over the train's route.

[angry_fred]

Hypothetically, you could have a 1 lane spur going off at Gratiot and/or Jefferson that would go away from downtown.

The Gratiot spur could go as far as St. Joseph's Church on Gratiot... with Fail Jail, Brewery Park, Eastern Market, and St. Joseph [Lafayette Park North] stations... and return via the same tracks.

A Jefferson spur could have Dequindre Cut/Lafayetee Park South, River Place/Chene Park, Harbortown, Belle Isle, Van Dyke/West Village, and Gold Coast stations... and return via the same tracks.

By using the same tracks, it would cut the price in half of a double track route.

I would really think those routes need double tracking. Maybe if you want to leave the Gratiot spur short [[end it at dequindre cut) you could cheat it with single track, but it would need rebuilding as the city grows out. The Jefferson line would likely start off by going to Belle isle, and that's long enough to make it necessary to double track.

There should also be a double tracked spur down MI Ave that ends at the train station

[Gistok]

^ Maybe single track with some double bypass points [would require the cars to be in sync]. But when you make it double track, you have the problem of PM stations... exiting on both sides makes for a double wide station... with double elevator and double stairs. It would also likely require a loop at the end to make a turnaround. The alternative would be separate tracks on either side of the roadways, which would mean double the number of cement columns. Again even more expensive.

If they could cut costs with bypass points, then it would allow more lines/miles of track. I really don't see a PM route going all the way to the city limits in any direction, not at the high costs. But it would be nice to have a line to the MCS.

[masterblaster]

^ Maybe single track with some double bypass points [would require the cars to be in sync]. But when you make it double track, you have the problem of PM stations... exiting on both sides makes for a double wide station... with double elevator and double stairs. It would also likely require a loop at the end to make a turnaround. The alternative would be separate tracks on either side of the roadways, which would mean double the number of cement columns. Again even more expensive.

If they could cut costs with bypass points, then it would allow more lines/miles of track. I really don't see a PM route going all the way to the city limits in any direction, not at the high costs. But it would be nice to have a line to the MCS.

IMHO, you are over-complicating things. Just build the two tracks on the Jefferson extension. With the smaller trains, you are going to need more frequent trains - there are only so many bypass points you can build. The Jacksonville Skyway shows you can build one row of columns for 2 tracks see below:



Also, the same system shows how you can make one transit station - without double elevators and stairs - for two tracks:



Yes, you would need to build a turnaround loop for the trains to go back the other direction. I don't think that's a big problem, the trains are so small a turnaround wouldn't be that big.

[Gistok]

^ Thanks Masterblaster! I wasn't aware that Jacksonville had a system. Looks good. The positioning of a 2 way track with a central station looks good, as does single columns supporting a double track...

[Scottathew]

I love the idea and the diagram. I would prefer BRT instead of a People Mover extension. It could still tie-in with the Cadillac Square People Mover station.

[Satiricalivory]

Big update coming

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...ter-innovation

[K-slice]

U of M is also committing to finally renovating their current large building in Detroit as well!

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...idtown-detroit

This answered one of my biggest questions when they first announced the Innovation Center, did U of M forget they already have a large building in the same area mothballed? An often overlook piece of the Cultural Center coming back to live will be a great thing for the area!

"UM's Detroit Center for research and outreach on Woodward Avenue will move there, as well as undergraduate admissions operations and educational programs in architecture and urban planning, engineering and environment and sustainability."

[Lowell]

Ilitchville poaching Gilbertville? From this article it appears big bucks Stephen Ross who had been paired with Gilbert has started pal-ing Chris Iltich.
https://freep-mi.newsmemory.com?publ...41cf80_134602f

[THE FURY 617]

In my opinion, it still sucks that the Center for Innovation is no longer at the failed jail Gratiot site and I understand that Stephan Ross wants it at a bigger site. All of those parking lots in the Foxtown area [[behind the FOX, Little Ceasers HQ,etc. between Clifford,Cass and Grand River roads) which we DON'T need, is the PERFECT location for it. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[Satiricalivory]

IMO it's so much better. Gilbert will find something good to do with the jail site but this new site guarantees that the worst part of downtown will be developed in the near future and out of Ilitch speculator control. It's a Christmas miracle.

[401don]

In my opinion, it still sucks that the Center for Innovation is no longer at the failed jail Gratiot site and I understand that Stephan Ross wants it at a bigger site. All of those parking lots in the Foxtown area [[behind the FOX, Little Ceasers HQ,etc. between Clifford,Cass and Grand River roads) which we DON'T need, is the PERFECT location for it. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

It sucks that it's being moved to the perfect site?

[Gistok]

The thing that tipped me off early on that the site was possibly going to move to Ilitchville, was that Ross is also developing a 5 parcel site near Masonic Temple, near Charlotte and Third Ave. as residential, within walking distance of this new site.

[313WX]

It sucks that it's being moved to the perfect site?

I think he meant the site is perfect as an alternative.

[southen]

The thing that tipped me off early on that the site was possibly going to move to Ilitchville, was that Ross is also developing a 5 parcel site near Masonic Temple, near Charlotte and Third Ave. as residential, within walking distance of this new site.

I hope it will go on the giant lot that fronts Cass Park. It would be nice to see that whole area get an infusion and maybe they will finally put some money into the park. I can't help but wonder though if there are still some Ilitch owned historic structures that will just so happen to be in the footprint of this great, new, amazing project that just must come down.

[Satiricalivory]

Highly doubt it would front Cass Park, there's not enough room there.

My bet is somewhere on Grand River behind the Fox.

[southen]

Highly doubt it would front Cass Park, there's not enough room there.

My bet is somewhere on Grand River behind the Fox.

The Innovation Center itself from the renderings could easily fit in the boundaries of the Ilitch lot that fronts Cass with room for other buildings. The site isn't as large as Fail Jail if you want a continuous plot of land but that doesn't mean you can't put parts of the project or different aspects on lots that or across the street or a block or two away. I would think having a large greenspace right there would have some appeal as well as being right next to Cass Tech. The American Hotel could even fulfill some of the housing needs.

[JonWylie]

The Innovation Center itself from the renderings could easily fit in the boundaries of the Ilitch lot that fronts Cass with room for other buildings. The site isn't as large as Fail Jail if you want a continuous plot of land but that doesn't mean you can't put parts of the project or different aspects on lots that or across the street or a block or two away. I would think having a large greenspace right there would have some appeal as well as being right next to Cass Tech. The American Hotel could even fulfill some of the housing needs.

Not that I get a vote, but I hope they don't try to assemble a large chunk of land and cut off the roads. Spread it out and keep the street access for the most part. If they want to make one a pedestrian/bike only that would be cool, but I hope they don't try to make it just a huge square and ruin the street grid.

[Gistok]

The Innovation Center itself from the renderings could easily fit in the boundaries of the Ilitch lot that fronts Cass with room for other buildings. The site isn't as large as Fail Jail if you want a continuous plot of land but that doesn't mean you can't put parts of the project or different aspects on lots that or across the street or a block or two away. I would think having a large greenspace right there would have some appeal as well as being right next to Cass Tech. The American Hotel could even fulfill some of the housing needs.

I like your idea of fronting the eastern side of Cass Park! Like you said, there's plenty of other space around it to put ancillary buildings on different blocks.

But there's something else that has me wondering... right across the park from that site is the Metropolitan Center for High Technology in the former Kresge's World HQ, which I believe is affiliated with WSU. Perhaps there can be some kind of collaboration between both organizations, to make that whole area a super High Tech center!

[Satiricalivory]

The Innovation Center itself from the renderings could easily fit in the boundaries of the Ilitch lot that fronts Cass with room for other buildings. The site isn't as large as Fail Jail if you want a continuous plot of land but that doesn't mean you can't put parts of the project or different aspects on lots that or across the street or a block or two away. I would think having a large greenspace right there would have some appeal as well as being right next to Cass Tech. The American Hotel could even fulfill some of the housing needs.

It doesn't make sense to put it there when the Ilitches own a huge swath of contiguous land right downtown.

IDK Why they would care about being next to Cass Tech, that's just a high school. And they've got beacon park on Grand River. Also I'm pretty sure Crains confirmed they were looking at the land behind the Fox.