UM to Partner with Gilbert on Innovation Center at Fail Jail Site

[401don]

U of M is planning a university with students, professors and degrees. This seems like some kind of global organization that will base their US HQ here.

Well yeah, but it wasn't just called a downtown campus, it was actually going to be an innovation center so my question is if both will have similar mandates and may in some ways compete with one another.

[Richard]

Richard, you mistakenly said “socialism” when the correct term was “capitalism.”

The boogeyman of “socialism” really is such a tedious 1950’s/1960’s mantra.

BTW, “an extra 100 billion” would be 1/20th of what we wasted in Afghanistan.

We did not waste it over there because we kept the fight over there and not on our soil.

If socialism was a 1950/1960s mantra then the DSP would no longer exist or continue to be active in gaining political power.

IE: incoming gov of NY.

Its another $100 billion on top of the other $100s of billions sent every year,that never changes anything.

Why not throw $100 billion a year at our own cities and fix our own problems first,then use the economic gain from that to help others.

We are paying for it anyways.

At the time it was sold as a good idea to slam freeways through cities,destroy an entire neighborhood and district,not once but twice because it would make a better future etc.

All I am saying is learn and pay close attention to what is going on.Because for every action there is a reaction and it always seems to be the middle and lower incomes that are getting knocked down a notch and paying a generational price for these social experiments.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

We did not waste it over there because we kept the fight over there and not on our soil
.

we’ve been attempting to “nation build” for two decades to no avail because we’re too arrogant to learn from history. The country literally collapsed in days. So yes. It was a waste. The Bin Laden threat was over years ago and the terrorists have moved to numerous other havens.

[Richard]

^ we were not there building a nation that was not the mission,the mission was to root out the radicals and stop that country from being the breeding ground and openly supporting radicals and to send the message of,no matter how long it takes we will remain committed.

You bring up a good point though and currently many service members that served over there are going through the same questions in their minds.

Was it worth it,as an X service member,I would have given my life with no regrets in order to take out 1 radical,because that one radical would not have thought twice about strapping a bomb to themselves and walking through a public place while killing hundreds of fellow Americans in the process.

Being ready to sacrifice our lives in order for others to live,is a choice we made when we signed up,to say or feel like it was a waste,it was not,people gave their lives so others would not have to.

When somebody gives their life for mine,I view that as honorable and commendable beyond all doubt,not a waste.

Before we can say it was a waste of money,we have to first figure out what the monetary value is on our life,on our children’s lifes and our loved ones lifes.

It is a disservice to confuse and judge the mission accomplishments and those who sacrificed their lives for ours,based on the exit plan,they are two totally not connected actions.

We said we would never forget but 20 years later we did.

but this is really not the thread for it.

[Satiricalivory]

Don't you ever get tired?

[Richard]

Don't you ever get tired?

Tired of people thinking the world revolves around them and everybody should only do what they feel is acceptable in their tiny little irrelevant realm?

Yes - but then I consider the source and pay it no mind.

[intelligentBeing]

IDEA: Whatever ends up going in the fail jail site can be a catalyst for a 2-way extension of the people mover along Gratiot. The Cadillac center station acts as a hub and there would be a stop at the fail jail site dev, Russell st [[access to eastern market) and the dequindre cut. Would work well with the new residents at the new Exchange building on Gratiot. Would give opportunity for lafayette park residents to take the mover into downtown. Parking garages downtown can supply parking space for eastern market saturdays taking parking load off the area.

This incremental expansion would serve as a connection from downtown to eastern market and the dequindre cut. Instead of all the proposals of adding mass transit from AA-DET or along wooodward from Pontiac to DET, this could serve as a smaller scale neighborhood connector and prevent putting the cart before the horse on too big budget of a system for low density neighborhoods/areas. Easier to squeeze in politically and budget-wise.

[kuuma]

IDEA: Whatever ends up going in the fail jail site can be a catalyst for a 2-way extension of the people mover along Gratiot.
...
could serve as a smaller scale neighborhood connector and prevent putting the cart before the horse on too big budget of a system for low density neighborhoods/areas. Easier to squeeze in politically and budget-wise.

thank you for suggesting this with diagrams and all! i was daydreaming off the roof of the Z looking at that station recently and imagining a rail down Gratiot that connects there. the stretch is utterly barren and has sooo much potential.

EM & LP together have 8K residents – more than downtown actually. this could expand the DPM service area from 7K people to 15K with just 3 new stops!

all the more reason to get I-375 replaced asap.

[Satiricalivory]

Nothing is ever going to happen with the people mover other than it's inevitable future demolition.

I can't believe people are still writing up fantasy concepts about the people mover. You guys realize it was never meant to be anything other than a hub connector right? It is not possible and not logical to do anything with it. They don't even make the cars for the type of tracks it has anymore.

[masterblaster]

Nothing is ever going to happen with the people mover other than it's inevitable future demolition.

I can't believe people are still writing up fantasy concepts about the people mover. You guys realize it was never meant to be anything other than a hub connector right? It is not possible and not logical to do anything with it. They don't even make the cars for the type of tracks it has anymore.

The only other PeopleMovers built in The PeopleMovers built in Miami, Vancouver, and Jacksonville were ALL extended. Miami and Vancouver created two-way lines with their extensions.

The PeopleMover's original purpose was to be a connector, but it has nothing to connect to. It could be extended. If it had been extended up Woodward to the New Center area, instead of the useless, get-stuck-in-traffic, get-stuck-behind-parked-vehicles, get-stuck-at-traffic-lights QLine being built, it would have become a far more useful utility than the current PM and the QLine.

Logistically, I don't see how an extension would work unless you dedicated certain rail cars to do only the downtown loop and other rail cars to do this Gratiot off-shoot as well as the downtown loop.

[kuuma]

I can't believe people are still writing up fantasy concepts about the people mover. You guys realize it was never meant to be anything other than a hub connector right?

i mean you're exactly right – it's a hub connector with no lines to connect. so... let's build lines for it to connect?

really discouraging how so many Detroiters are like "damn this one isolated transit line isn't revolutionizing the city all by itself, rather than widen the area of service to engage more residents let's deem it proof that transit can't exist here and just never try again"

[Gistok]

Not sure how many PM cars there are in the system, or whether or not they could ever be added to. But the PM central garage [at the Times Square station] is huge, and can accommodate at least 4 times the current number of cars in the system, if not more.

[Satiricalivory]

i mean you're exactly right – it's a hub connector with no lines to connect. so... let's build lines for it to connect?

How on earth do you expect to do this?? It's a single lane track that sits on concrete platforms that were never built to have additions. It would make more sense to just build a brand new two way monorail from scratch and it would probably be less expensive too. Unless you mean build the subway lines in Detroit that were originally planned.

I don't think you're understanding the point, the people mover is NOT transit and it was NEVER supposed to be transit! It was made to serve basically the same purpose as the Somerset sky-walk bridge. It's like you're trying to expand a makeshift carnival kiddie ride into a subway, it makes no sense at all.

really discouraging how so many Detroiters are like "damn this one isolated transit line isn't revolutionizing the city all by itself, rather than widen the area of service to engage more residents let's deem it proof that transit can't exist here and just never try again"

You're just appealing to extremes now. I want real regional transit in Detroit, not stupid people mover extensions that go a few blocks up Gratiot. We need BRT and rail transit. Not expensive useless people mover BS.

[Gistok]

^Chill out...

This is a forum of ideas... not one persons viewpoint. We can agree to disagree.

[intelligentBeing]

I want real regional transit in Detroit, not stupid people mover extensions that go a few blocks up Gratiot. We need BRT and rail transit. Not expensive useless people mover BS.

This would be very expensive and would take decades to accomplish [[if ever) due to bureaucracy, budget, and politics. Incrementally building out [[a few blocks at a time) our existing people mover system would cost less and could happen quicker. The current people mover loop could act as a one-way "roundabout" for multiple 2-way lines coming in/going out along spoke roads. But the catch is for now we can only build to high traffic areas [[eastern market, belle isle, corktown). People/traffic first then build transit, can't go the other way around since we are in no financial state to take large project risks. Small incremental bets is the way to go.

The other way to go is to increase greater downtowns population density by 3x and then tear down people mover and put something more ideal in. This would be great but we do not have a great amount of control over pop growth. Population = money, and for transit, money talks.

[detmsp]

Incrementally building out [[a few blocks at a time) our existing people mover system would cost less and could happen quicker.

Where did you get that info from? Because I was under the impression that the people mover was never expanded because the costs were just so ungodly high.

[EGrant]

The People Mover was never expanded beyond what we have because of disagreements between the city and the suburbs over how to allocate $600 million in federal funding from an Urban Mass Transportation Administration program started in the late 60s. No one could agree, so the funding was pulled. They only ended up building the downtown portion we have today. The initial plan had the People Mover as a sort of hub, with links to the suburbs via a subway, light rail and commuter rail.

I think someone did an analysis on this forum a while back and surmised that elevated rail would be one of the most cost effective and simple ways to expand. You wouldn't have to tear up streets for light rail or spend money on expensive tunneling. Plus, running along existing roads reduced the amount of right of way/property issues you'd run into. Wish I could find where I saw that.

[Gistok]

^ I think the $600 million figure was in the mid 1970s, during the Ford administration, when $600 million was set aside for Detroit. Only the PM was installed, the bickering with the suburban counties put an end to anything more. This was during the SEMTA era... and all the arguing ended up disbanding SEMTA, and it was replaced by SMART.

[313WX]

I want real regional transit in Detroit, not stupid people mover extensions that go a few blocks up Gratiot. We need BRT and rail transit. Not expensive useless people mover BS.

Then you better convince your follow SE Michigan residents to pony up the cash for the cost to build/operate it.

[renf]

A People Mover system was constructed in 1975 in Morgantown West Virginia to connect three different campuses of the University of West
Virginia. I believe that it has been seen as very successful. What are
the implications of that success for the People Mover in Detroit which
has carried, I think, move than 21 million per year before the pandemic.

[Jason]

They don't even make the cars for the type of tracks it has anymore.

They don't make them anymore because no one sells the same train design for 40 years. But they've been continuously making updated versions of the trains for various systems around the world since then.

And aside from them, any rolling stock manufacturer who makes metro vehicles would be able to make new ones for us. Our vehicle lengths are common and linear induction motors are common.

It's a single lane track that sits on concrete platforms that were never built to have additions.

The affected guideway and station would be demolished and replaced. The People Mover would operate in a back and forth shuttle pattern instead of the loop.

When the extension would be completed, there would likely be two designated lines. The existing loop line which just goes around in circles. And the extension line, where trains would come from the extension, enter the loop, go around it, and then exit the loop.

While Detroit's end loop would be the most substantial that I know of, other metro systems around the world do have them. An example is Seoul Subway Line 6 which is 22.6 miles long, with 39 stations, 6 of which are on a one way loop at the end.

It would make more sense to just build a brand new two way monorail from scratch and it would probably be less expensive too.

The People Mover isn't a monorail. It's a normal steel wheel standard gauge metro system.

And building a two way elevated metro through downtown is basically impossible. There's not enough space for the larger guideway and the much larger stations. It would have to be tunneled which would be astronomically expensive.

I don't think you're understanding the point, the people mover is NOT transit and it was NEVER supposed to be transit! It was made to serve basically the same purpose as the Somerset sky-walk bridge. It's like you're trying to expand a makeshift carnival kiddie ride into a subway, it makes no sense at all.

"People Mover" is a transit term for systems which circulate people within a district rather than transport people between districts. For example, airport people movers connect terminals and parking. We have a downtown people mover.

That said, the actual physical system [[the trains, etc.) is a metro. The name of their transportation product was the Intermediate Capacity Transit System [[ICTS). Linear induction motors [[which go together with articulated bogies) are smaller and lighter, and can turn tighter turns and climb higher slopes, which all makes tunnels and elevated guideways cheaper, because the structures themselves are smaller and because the routing is more flexible. 100% grade separation allows automation. Automation divorces labor costs from train frequency, which means you can get the same capacity by running a bunch of short trains very frequently instead of running a few very long trains less frequently. Shorter trains means shorter platforms and smaller stations which are cheaper to build and easier to place.

Nowadays the concept is known with the general term "light metro". Not all of the elements are the same between all systems but the idea is that you can provide very high quality metro service inexpensively with frequent automated short trains. The "intermediate" and "light" are because in order to get very high capacities [[which few cities need) you need to run long trains anyway and the benefits are diminished.

When the people mover was first being planned they were mainly envisioning small rubber tired vehicles like the Miami Metromover, which was part of the same federal Downtown People Mover Program. But they didn't want rubber tires because of concerns about slipping on ice. So even though the ICTS was developed for metro systems, it fulfilled our requirements of having steel wheels, automation, and the ability to turn tight corners.

You're just appealing to extremes now. I want real regional transit in Detroit, not stupid people mover extensions that go a few blocks up Gratiot. We need BRT and rail transit. Not expensive useless people mover BS.

Do you want light rail?

The People Mover has about the same max capacity as Seattle's light rail, but it's more frequent, more reliable, cheaper to operate, and could travel faster.

Is light rail cheaper to build? It depends. The idea behind light rail is that you can build an overall good rail system more cheaply than a metro, by selectively grade separating parts of the route.

Building in the median of a road is relatively inexpensive, but the service quality enabled by that is not particularly remarkable. Your frequency is limited by traffic signals, or else cars would literally perpetually have red lights. Your speed is limited, because even though you have your own right of way it's still next to and intersects with the road. Your train length is limited because it's hard to fit very long platforms onto roads in urban areas. Stations are wonky because they're narrow strips squeezed into medians. But running in the median is a lot cheaper.

So if it's 80% on the median and 20% grade separated, you've saved a lot of money, but your service is limited by the non-grade separated portion.

If it's 20% on the median and 80% grade separated, your system is improved, but you haven't saved very much money, and your service is still limited by the non-grade separated portion.

If you're building high end light rail, at a certain point the cost savings aren't worthwhile and it makes more sense to just make it 100% grade separated. If you're building low end light rail, at a certain point it's functionally the same as bus lanes, which are much cheaper.

Somewhere in the middle is where light rail is the optimal choice. But much of that middle is actually occupied by light metro. Light metro has to be completely grade separated, but it's much cheaper to grade separate than light rail. A new station on a People Mover extension could cost less than 30% as much as an elevated light rail station.


But that's just considering the cost, and not the value.

You can reorganize the bus system to be more optimized, because the People Mover is frequent, fast, and reliable enough to easily transfer to it. ~2 minutes to get to the platform and 0-4 minutes for a train to arrive. For the vast majority of trips, the transfer time is made up by the People Mover's faster speed.

For example, if this Gratiot stub simply went to Mack, there could be substantial bus improvements. The Mack and Gratiot buses both go downtown, but transferring to the People Mover would get there faster, which means they could be rerouted to New Center. They would effectively serve downtown AND New Center, and the rerouting would open up additional bus to bus transfer opportunities.

[bust]

^ I'm looking forward to your next class!

[Jason]

^ I'm looking forward to your next class!

I tried to keep it short, I swear!

I think someone did an analysis on this forum a while back and surmised that elevated rail would be one of the most cost effective and simple ways to expand. You wouldn't have to tear up streets for light rail or spend money on expensive tunneling. Plus, running along existing roads reduced the amount of right of way/property issues you'd run into. Wish I could find where I saw that.

That was me, just look through my post history for the giant walls of text. :[[

I've mainly looked at a Jefferson extension in detail. The short version is that if you extended the People Mover to Van Dyke, merged the Van Dyke and Jefferson buses into one L shaped route, and likewise terminated other overlapping routes at the new People Mover stations, it would cost less to operate than what we currently do. Applying the operating cost savings to construction costs, plus new property taxes, and new income taxes, the construction costs would be covered.

[Gistok]

^ I was going to ask if it was possible for the People Mover to have [in railroad jargon] "points"... see image.

But then I realize that at the Time Square Station, where the PM maintenance garage is, they already have "points"... to switch over from the PM route to the PM garage, and back again.

So this is existing technology, and could be used for a spur off the main line.

[Dmberko11]

^ I was going to ask if it was possible for the People Mover to have [in railroad jargon] "points"... see image.

But then I realize that at the Time Square Station, where the PM maintenance garage is, they already have "points"... to switch over from the PM route to the PM garage, and back again.

So this is existing technology, and could be used for a spur off the main line.

Wasn't expecting a people mover discussion on the Gratiot site thread but I dig it nonetheless. Let's do it Detroit! Expand!