New Arena on the Horizon??

[showstoppa]

don't any of you think the Pistons may be at a disadvantage being in Auburn Hills ? [[not trying to incite city vs. suburbs war)

would a Piston fan in say Ecorse, Taylor be willing to spend the gas money to make the drive to Auburn Hills ?

[DetroitZack]

I had heard that buildings near the Detroit Life Building were being demolished for a new hockey arena.....makes me wonder what other ones they are demolishing. Parking lots galore over there!

[softailrider]

crawford, don't Comerica Park and Ford Field disprove your point? Did the Ilitches have a "half-billion sitting around" for Comerica Park, or Bill Ford for Ford Field? Aren't they both "single-use arenas"?

Please don't put Mike Illich and and William Clay Ford in the same monetary league. While Illich is a self made man and Ford inherited his money, Ford could buy and sell him in an instant.

[davewindsor]

I had heard that buildings near the Detroit Life Building were being demolished for a new hockey arena.....makes me wonder what other ones they are demolishing. Parking lots galore over there!

There's no way it'll be built in Foxtown. Look at a map and look at how far away the Motor City casino is from Foxtown. Then, notice all the vacant parcels to the south of the Motor City casino. It'll be built to the south of his casino as an addition to his casino empire complex and Tiger Stadium will probably be parking for it and I'll bet the government will end up footing half the bill.

[3WC]

Mike Ilitch will announce within months the construction of a new arena behind the Fox. Construction will start within a year. Eventually, there will be a much smaller Junior Red Wings arena which will double as a RW practice facility.

Crawford, I wish you had a big basket full of money you'd be willing to bet that I'm wrong. I'd love nothing more than to separate you from a very large amount of money.

The Pistons have historically been a very profitable franchise and there is no way they will move from the Palace, probably, historically, the most profitable sports venue in the country. Now, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that in the future Miriam Ilitch may buy the Pistons from Karen Davidson to shelter her casino profits.

The UA will be demolished. Does anyone really think that the UA can be economically renovated for any reasonable potential use? If so, dream on.

Forbes does not know how much money Ilitch has and neither does anyone on this forum. And, no one on here has an accurate understanding of the nature and extent of all of his assets, or the extent of his liquidity.

[esp1986]

There's no way it'll be built in Foxtown. Look at a map and look at how far away the Motor City casino is from Foxtown. Then, notice all the vacant parcels to the south of the Motor City casino. It'll be built to the south of his casino as an addition to his casino empire complex and Tiger Stadium will probably be parking for it and I'll bet the government will end up footing half the bill.

get a clue... mr. ilitch has been buying property behind the fox for about 10 years with this intention. the arena will be built on adams near cass. ilitch will not build outside of the immediate downtown area for development purposes, the same reason why he wanted Comerica Park there, he has developed the whole area and isn't about to stop now. mike ilitch has nothing to do with the casino.

[PQZ]

Any new arena is going to have a functionally different finance structure than the two most recent stadia.

With CoPa and FF, the DDA issues bonds and then bought the land the stadiums and certain parking lots / structures now occupy. The teams leased tha lnad from the DDA for a nominal fee and paid for the construction of the buildings. The terms of the land leases are that 25 years from opening, the stadia - which are considered leasehold improvements - become the property of the DDA.

The Wayne County Stadium Authority raised money through a hospitality and rental car tax and used those funds for infrastructure improvements - most notably infrastructure relocations to accomdate the palying fields being below grade. It is unclear to me whether those taxes are paying of a specific bond issue or if they are replacement dollars for G.O.s. At any rate, last I heard in 2006 / early 2007 the Stadium Authority was significantly ahead of its collection projections.

The state paid for the necessary freeway and surface roadway improvements.

IF - and its a big if given the economy - a new arena were to go behind the Fox in its most logical place, Olympia already owns the land so there would be no need for the DDA to acquire land. The DDA bonding capacity is still largely consumed by the stadia, but the Millender Center bonds ought to be coming close to burning off.

The Stadium Authority has no ability to use their funds for anything other than the two stadia approved by the voters. IF the excess capacity is still there and the Authority wants to tap it for infrastructure work, they would need to go back to the ballot and ask for a modification of the original Authority's powers. Probably a slam dunk if there is no increase in any taxes. If they need to add a few cents here or there on the hospitality taxes it still has a good shot if they frame it the right way.

Much of the work done by the state is perfectly usable for a new arena and any roadwork is not going to be nearly as significant as was done previously.

My guess is:
Olympia builds and fully owns the arena itself and keeps the land ownership.
DDA issues bonds for a new parking deck to support the arena and perhaps upgrades to streets.
Stadium Authority pays for infrastructure and street realignments.
State throws a few dollars in the kitty for tweaks to I-75 and the arterials they own like Woodward.

[crawford]

crawford, don't Comerica Park and Ford Field disprove your point? Did the Ilitches have a "half-billion sitting around" for Comerica Park, or Bill Ford for Ford Field? Aren't they both "single-use arenas"?

No, they both prove my point.

Neither Comerica nor Ford Field is an arena. They are a baseball park and a football stadium, both of which rely on totally different economic assumptions.

Baseball parks are easier to finance because they have 81 guaranteed dates, and are cheaper to build than covered sports arenas.

Football stadia are NOT primarily financed by the owners; they are financed by the NFL through revenue sharing. There is no revenue sharing in the NBA or NHL, and neither league gives even a penny to new arenas.

Also, both Comerica and Ford Field received a ton of state money. A new Wings arena would require far more state money than either of these venues.

So the question is whether or not you think the state would be willing to give the Illitches a cool $200 million or so to build a new arena. Given the current economic climate, my guess would be no.

[Retroit]

Thank you, that was very informative. PQZ also.

[esp1986]

No, they both prove my point.

Neither Comerica nor Ford Field is an arena. They are a baseball park and a football stadium, both of which rely on totally different economic assumptions.

Baseball parks are easier to finance because they have 81 guaranteed dates, and are cheaper to build than covered sports arenas.

Football stadia are NOT primarily financed by the owners; they are financed by the NFL through revenue sharing. There is no revenue sharing in the NBA or NHL, and neither league gives even a penny to new arenas.

What no one seems to remember, back in about 1992, Mike Ilitch wanted to pay $300 million out of HIS pocket to build a new stadium for the Tigers, but was unable to jump through the numerous hoops that the city laid out for him. Discouraged, he threatened to leave town, as a political ploy of course, and then not only did he get his way, but he also got a good portion of the stadium paid for through public funds.

If he decides to, Ilitch can build this arena out of pocket. Given the current economic climate, it does seem unlikely, but if things start to show signs of turning around, don't be suprised if they make an announcement sooner rather than later to take advantace of significantly discounted construction costs while they can.

[Gistok]

If an arena gets built in west Foxtown... it sort of hinges one one additional item... if the Alibri heirs sell their 3 parking lot parcels near Elizabeth & Clifford to the Ilitch's.

[davewindsor]

get a clue... mr. ilitch has been buying property behind the fox for about 10 years with this intention. the arena will be built on adams near cass. ilitch will not build outside of the immediate downtown area for development purposes, the same reason why he wanted Comerica Park there, he has developed the whole area and isn't about to stop now. mike ilitch has nothing to do with the casino.

God, would you use a little common sense. The arena isn't going in Foxtown. Maybe he did buy up land in Foxtown, but the Illitches bought the Motorcity Casino in 2005. Comerica Park was built in 2000. If he owned that casino back in 1997, do you really think Comerica Park would be where it is today?

It's statistically proven that big shows bring in the big spenders who cause significant increases in casino revenues. If you own a hot commodity like a major sports team and a casino and you're planning on building an arena somewhere, you're gonna build it next to your casino to try to double your casino revenues cause that's what big show getters do. They double your casino revenue. So, in addition to making money off the team, they make additional money from the casino. Illitch is no idiot; he is a self-made billionaire and is always on the lookout for great opportunities. Where's the opportunity by sticking it in Foxtown? It makes absolutely no sense that he would pass up a great opportunity to make a lot of money by sticking it Foxtown. He's just land speculating in Foxtown like Mouran with MCS.

Also, why do you think Tiger stadium got demolished when there's many other buildings in more serious need of those demolition funds? Illitch wants it for parking. Just wait till the stadium site is clear. Next thing you'll hear is his announcement that the arena is going next to his casino and the city is giving him for deed for the old Tiger site for a buck so he has sufficient parking for the new arena.

Behind these big demolitions are big players. What other major player in that area would have interest using demo funds to see the old Tiger site demo'd? No one. It's just like Lafayette. Ferchill thinks a boarded up building next his newly renovated hotel is bad for business, so he has the city demo it.

Finally, how can you even say Mike Illitch has nothing to do with the Motor City Casino? Marion Illitch bought Motor City Casino in 2005. Mike and Marion are married and had seven children together. She's chairwoman of Illitch Holdings. You get a clue and also get some common sense.

[crawford]

What no one seems to remember, back in about 1992, Mike Ilitch wanted to pay $300 million out of HIS pocket to build a new stadium for the Tigers, but was unable to jump through the numerous hoops that the city laid out for him.

Please source this "guarantee".

And, even if true, he ended up taking over 100 million in taxpayer funding, so it supports my point. It would require at least 200 million in public funding nowadays. You think that has a possibility in these trying times?

200 million in taxpayer dollars to replace one money-losing arena with another? There is no impact on downtown one way or the other.

If he decides to, Ilitch can build this arena out of pocket.

You don't know this.

Unless you do his books, you don't know his cash liquidity. His net worth does not really shed light on his liquidity.

And even if he could do it, it doesn't mean he will.

Maybe Bill Gates could build a bullet train from NYC to LA. Doesn't mean he's going to do it.

[1KielsonDrive]

Illitch will wait out the storm until he's on the taxpayer's 'dole' again. Someone, and I suspect it'll be you and me, will pay the lions share of his new stadiums costs, whether it be next to the MC Casino [[good point davewindsor) or near Foxtown. I'll think it'll be at the Casino and with taxpayer dollars.

[SCS100]

There is no revenue sharing in the NBA or NHL, and neither league gives even a penny to new arenas.

Wrong, the NHL has revenue sharing. It's called giving the money to Phoenix and the southern markets to survive. Don't you follow the NHL if you claim to know how it operates? That was a major point of the 2004/2005 lockout. It's supposed to stabilize financially unstable teams.

[buildingsofdetroit]

"I find it hard to believe that the facade alone of the Fine Arts Building would be preserved unless there was likely to be some sort of development in the very near future."

The FA facade has nothing to do with that. The historic commission green-lighted its razing only IF the facade was saved. Ilitch MUST have a plan for the cleared Adams/Fine Arts site, though. Why would he demo those now if he didn't? Just because the state money was available? [[Remember, your tax dollars paid to raze the Chin Tiki, the old parking garage, FA, Adams Theatre and the two buildings on Columbia between G.River and Cass.)
As for the west Foxtown thing, I don't see it, quite frankly. You'd have to shut down way too many roads, there aren't easy-access freeway offramps. The footprint just seems too small. He bought the vacant Eddystone and Park Ave. hotels north of 75. Now why would he do that? Just a guess, but that stretch of the Corridor needs gentrification. I'd bet the new arena would go there, especially with Olympia operating the Masonic now.

[EastSider]

As for the west Foxtown thing, I don't see it, quite frankly. You'd have to shut down way too many roads, there aren't easy-access freeway offramps. The footprint just seems too small. He bought the vacant Eddystone and Park Ave. hotels north of 75. Now why would he do that? Just a guess, but that stretch of the Corridor needs gentrification. I'd bet the new arena would go there, especially with Olympia operating the Masonic now.

Would traffic downtown really miss W. Montcalm, Elizabeth or Columbia. Even Clifford north of Adams could be dealt with. It's just a drunken path to Cass anyhow.

The freeway access? There is no substantial difference in freeway access between a supposed Foxtown arena site and Comerica Park/Ford Field. Even seems able to get to the existing spots just fine on event days, so why would everyone grow stupid just because they have to go west of Woodward?

[casscorridor]

fuck illitch.

fuck a new arena.

fuck the next BIG DEVELOPMENT downtown that won't do one shred of good for the neighborhoods

It'll just empty out Red Wings fan's from people mover and Greektown... currently hot spots whenever there is a Wings game. It'll also mean more superblocks seperating Downtown from surrounding neighborhoods. Goodbye Cass Ave... it'll probably be cut up too. We have Comerica Park and Ford Field and freeways blocking off Brush Park [[redevelopment there basically stalled). We have MGM and freeways blocking off Corktown. Freeways and suburban appartments blocking off near eastside neighborhoods. The Ren Cen blocking off rivertown. and Cobo and the Joe and freeways blocking off the west riverfront.

We have to stop looking for "the next big thing" and start thinking how we can revitalize each neighborhood, block by block. a new stadium downtown won't do shit, to be frank.

[Retroit]

Well said, casscorridor. It makes one wonder what the point of all this development downtown is for. Does it really benefit the average Detroiter, or is it intended more for the suburbanites to have a place far removed from their tranquil suburbs in which to revel? Is Ilitch concerned about bringing people into the city to live, or just to have fun so that he can profit? If the former, then why not build apartment buildings instead of stadia?

Downtown is like a funnel into which money from the neighborhoods is poured, yet it adds nothing to the desirability of living in those neighborhoods. The theory that a revitalized downtown will draw people into living in the city has proven to be a false hope. Detroiters aren't moving to the suburbs because they have newer stadia.

[1KielsonDrive]

casscorridor, admirably [[albeit a little roughly) put. You and I see eye to eye on this one. I just wouldn't have stated it the same way because all of the dewy eyed downtown enthusiasts would've made a meal of me. That's not to say you and I don't wish the best for downtown, rather we disagree with the emphasis on downtown that's robbed the neighborhoods for decades. At this point, what difference does it make what they decide to build or where? The decision will be made by the few for the few. I was downtown last night. As much as I love it, my heart cries for the neighborhoods. But, I have to add, that I spent an equal amount of time in a couple of neighborhoods last night, that seem to thrive in spite of all that's taken from them by our city 'fathers'.

[Gistok]

I wouldn't start placing bets yet on where a new arena is going. Maybe Mike Ilitch doesn't know yet... all 3 locations have their pluses and minuses.

As for the west Foxtown area... the archives of DYES are littered with threads showing aerial shots of a Joe Louis Arena or a Palace superimposed onto the west Foxtown site. A new arena fits there by just closing Elizabeth, Columbia and Clifford. It's highly unlikely that they'll close Cass.

As for residential units near the Stadia.... what would you call Brush Park, and the Crosswinds condos... a mirage? Although technically in Midtown, they're closer to the stadia than other downtown sites could ever be...

[esp1986]

http://detnews.com/article/20100117/...downtown-arena

if their sources are correct, as well as what we have heard in the last 6 months [[such as a quote from county exec. Robert Ficano about financing), we could see something in the next few years... time will tell...

[DetroitPlanner]

I would think the days of cities or counties building stadiums are over for quite some time. When you can't afford to keep officers on the street or plow the roads you sure as hell should not be building arenas for millionaires.

[gnome]

When Ficano pushes through the public funding for a new stadium downtown, you will hear reports of a aged, bald white guy who rappelled down to Ficano's office widow, blew open the glass, wrestled him to the floor and removed his ears with a straight razor. That madman then retreated through the window and continued down the rope to the street where he stapled Ficano's ears to a bus shelter.

That person would be me.

[esp1986]

I would think the days of cities or counties building stadiums are over for quite some time. When you can't afford to keep officers on the street or plow the roads you sure as hell should not be building arenas for millionaires.

You forget that Mr. Ilitch has an estimated net worth of nearly $1.5 Billion, and there is a good chance the Pistons could be sold, so should the team be sold, the new owner, which more than likely will not own the Palace as well, would collaborate, and the arena could be privately financed.