Uniting Hart and Spirit Plazas: Bridge or Tunnel?

[detlump]

Maybe the answer is to get rid of the freeway speed traffic by tearing out M10 south of I-75 and returning surface traffic to Jefferson [[like 375). The ROW of M10 could be converted into a surface street and connect to Michigan Ave. There used to be some surface streets there at some point, right? Before M10 was put in?

The closest freeway to downtown would be 75 at that point which is OK. Jefferson is too much of a racetrack through downtown.

I also prefer the idea of a bridge [[or two) even if M10 is removed downtown. However, at street level the bridges will impact views of the river and act as a barrier of sorts, in order to be high enough for traffic clearance and require approaches that comply with the ADA.

[Seven&wyo]

How about this, what city isn't "goofy"?

[EGrant]

People get very mad online when they can't drive 55 MPH unimpeded through downtown Detroit... "Oh but think of the streetlights!" might be the weakest argument I've ever seen against a pedestrian plaza.

Anyway, I think we should fix up Hart Plaza, or at least program it better before we invest in any tunnels or bridges. Maybe a road diet to start, but if there's not much for people to do in Hart Plaza except trip on uneven pavers and watch garbage swirl around in the subterranean levels, the effort is futile.

[Meddle]

"Oh but think of the streetlights!" might be the weakest argument I've ever seen against a pedestrian plaza.

I'm against the uneveness of spending. It's the same old story, spend for the benefit of the few, but ignore the needs of the many. The city MUST refocus the bulk of spending on the residential areas outside the loop. The city cannot survive if they don't.

[Danny]

Not going to work. As for right now The Detroit City 'Ward' District Council is trying to figure out how to Spirit Plaza open by November or covert it back to Woodward Ave. connecting to and from Jefferson Ave again.

That area was not meant to be a plaza. Downtown Detroit is Judge Augustus Woodward's broken wagon wheel [[Post-Psuedo Washington D.C. streetscape) design with narrow streets to keep the flow of traffic going without creating too much clogging! And it we should keep it that way.

[DetroitSoldier]

Not going to work. As for right now The Detroit City 'Ward' District Council is trying to figure out how to Spirit Plaza open by November or covert it back to Woodward Ave. connecting to and from Jefferson Ave again.

That area was not meant to be a plaza. Downtown Detroit is Judge Augustus Woodward's broken wagon wheel [[Post-Psuedo Washington D.C. streetscape) design with narrow streets to keep the flow of traffic going without creating too much clogging! And it we should keep it that way.

If we should keep it the way Judge Woodward designed it, we should also have only pedestrians and horses, with wagons only allowed on certain streets.

Times change, needs and usages change.

[hamtramck boy]

There are a ton of arguments for and against bridges and tunnels that have been made here that I won't restate, but one solution that may check all the boxes is a migratory bridge. Gentle ramp up for accessibility, looks nice and green, doesn't require Jefferson to be buried... and it could transition right into the newly remodeled Hart Plaza. Something like the image below, but even wider. About the width of the Spirit Plaza, but getting wider as it opens into the Plaza.

Thoughts?

[masterblaster]

There are a ton of arguments for and against bridges and tunnels that have been made here that I won't restate, but one solution that may check all the boxes is a migratory bridge. Gentle ramp up for accessibility, looks nice and green, doesn't require Jefferson to be buried... and it could transition right into the newly remodeled Hart Plaza. Something like the image below, but even wider. About the width of the Spirit Plaza, but getting wider as it opens into the Plaza.


Thoughts?

Really Great Idea, the photo link does not work though.

[Honky Tonk]

Isn't there a Habitrail already going from the Millender to the RenCen? Why can't people just go into the Millender, take the escalator up one floor, in case you're tired of all that walking you're doing, come out in the RenCen, take the escalator one floor down, and bingo, there you are in Hart Plaza, and across the street?

[Seven&wyo]

To be honest I don't even like Hart plaza. If it was me I would keep the sculptures and turn the rest of it into a continuation of downtown as it was during the turn of the century. It's ugly and architecture can be more beautiful.

With the same beautiful architecture, but that may be wishful thinking

[bragaboutme]

To be honest this is a great idea, where and who do I submit my design to. I mean, I've have this vision since around super bowl time. Drew up the pre design and back then people were saying they would never close off Woodward at Jefferson and here we are.

[Seven&wyo]

The city already is. The city is already repaving tons of roads, they've been repairing and updating the sewer system, the streetlights are fucked up because of the manufacturer and they are being replaced, foreclosures are way down, the population loss has slowed to almost nothing [[possibly reversing a little), real estate development is starting to go beyond just downtown. Every concern you've brought up is being dealt with, some quickly some slowly, but they're being dealt. You're not getting any brownie points from anyone for raising concerns we all know about.

[mwilbert]

Hart Plaza isn't attractive, so unless there is some kind of change there I doubt it matters what you do to Jefferson, but if you were going to do something to Jefferson to make it Hart Plaza more connected you should put the traffic through a tunnel, or make Jefferson a lot smaller. My opinion has long been that neither of the freeway spurs south of I-75 should exist, which would eliminate the problem with them feeding into Jefferson.

[Gistok]

Hart Plaza isn't attractive, so unless there is some kind of change there I doubt it matters what you do to Jefferson, but if you were going to do something to Jefferson to make it Hart Plaza more connected you should put the traffic through a tunnel, or make Jefferson a lot smaller. My opinion has long been that neither of the freeway spurs south of I-75 should exist, which would eliminate the problem with them feeding into Jefferson.

I'm sure Matty Maroun would love that... people not wanting to be stuck in traffic waiting to get to the tunnel and taking the Ambassador Bridge instead.

Have you ever waited an hour in traffic trying to get downtown from Woodward Ave., while something is going on at either Ford Field or Comerica Park... and LCA? Won't be doing that ever again.

Choking off lower downtown by closing the freeway access while things are going on in the stadia district is a sure way to kill off restaurant and retail business downtown.

While my family prefers going downtown for lunch or dinner... long waits to get there with $30-$50 parking is a sure downer. In the last 2 years we've just been going to the Pegasus or Fishbones here in SCS rather than going thru the long and expensive hassle of going downtown on game days. Not happy about it, but make getting to downtown even more difficult, and the law of unintended consequences will definitely kick in.

[EGrant]

While my family prefers going downtown for lunch or dinner... long waits to get there with $30-$50 parking is a sure downer. In the last 2 years we've just been going to the Pegasus or Fishbones here in SCS rather than going thru the long and expensive hassle of going downtown on game days. Not happy about it, but make getting to downtown even more difficult, and the law of unintended consequences will definitely kick in.

Sounds like the perfect case study for adding a Smart FAST bus service down Jefferson....

[Gistok]

Sounds like the perfect case study for adding a Smart FAST bus service down Jefferson....

We live in SCS, Fraser and Warren... Smart is not an option for an extended family... especially since my sister has mobility issues, and we always take a tour around Belle Isle after every visit.

[bust]

We live in SCS, Fraser and Warren... Smart is not an option for an extended family... especially since my sister has mobility issues, and we always take a tour around Belle Isle after every visit.

You and your family chose to live where transit barely exists. Convenient access to transit is one of the primary factors I consider, as it has been since I realized I prefer vibrant cities full of amenities over car traffic and parking lots. I've owned cars only in Detroit. Except for then I've mostly only spent my money in the cities where I've lived, not just during visits.

I realize you want Detroit to become more vibrant too. But it's ironic: Detroit's wide roads and expanses of parking lots are a big reason it's having such a hard time achieving that, and the cars you and your family insist on driving into the city are part of the problem.

[iheartthed]

Choking off lower downtown by closing the freeway access while things are going on in the stadia district is a sure way to kill off restaurant and retail business downtown.

While my family prefers going downtown for lunch or dinner... long waits to get there with $30-$50 parking is a sure downer. In the last 2 years we've just been going to the Pegasus or Fishbones here in SCS rather than going thru the long and expensive hassle of going downtown on game days. Not happy about it, but make getting to downtown even more difficult, and the law of unintended consequences will definitely kick in.

"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." -Yogi Berra

[Gistok]

"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." -Yogi Berra

Nice slogan... but meaningless here...

[iheartthed]

Nice slogan... but meaningless here...

Detroit shouldn't really be making planning decisions to make it convenient for people who don't live there or pay taxes to the city.

[bust]

...people not wanting to be stuck in traffic waiting to get to the tunnel and taking the Ambassador Bridge instead.

Great. Most of the cars going through the tunnel aren't coming from or going to downtown anyway. What benefit does Detroit get from their traffic?

[mwilbert]

This really seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me. If stuff is happening at the stadiums, not taking Woodward is already a good idea. There are a lot of streets that go downtown, and I don't really think that getting rid of the Lodge or I-375 implies that there would be no traffic along the previous freeway alignments.

Also, if you don't want to pay $30-50 parking, you don't go on game nights anyway, and freeway or no freeway isn't affecting that.

[Seven&wyo]

Not to pile on Gistok or anything, but going without a car is actually popular in metro Detroit too. The Fast bus[[at least on Woodward) is always filled in the morning, the most wanted neighborhoods and cities are all very walkable[[Ferndale, Birmingham, West Village, SW) and I can only see areas that have the potential to be walkable to be the next "it" neighborhoods [[Bagley, Russell Woods, maybe Warren Ave). The older demographic definitely love their cars and I don't see it changing.

[Gistok]

When I posted my first comment... I thought... oh lordy... the mass transit crowd would eat me alive... had your fill yet?

We take cars when we go downtown because of mobility issues [[my late mother was in her 80s and my sister has rheumatoid arthritis in both knees)... so public transport of any kind is not an option. So for all you mass transit hipsters... one size does not fit all...

I want to give a special thanks to the late great 3WC [[Tony Pieroni)... who could be snarky and controversial on this forum, but he really had a heart of gold. One year we went downtown, but all parking was full up because of a Tigers opener [[I had a planning brain fart that day!). We asked Tony if we could park in the Michigan Theatre garage. He not only allowed us free parking, but then paid for all our meals that day at the restaurant in his building [[Bagley Bar & Grille). I really miss that old goat... [[... in the nicest way!)

[bust]

One year we went downtown, but all parking was full up because of a Tigers opener [[I had a planning brain fart that day!). We asked Tony if we could park in the Michigan Theatre garage. He not only allowed us free parking, but then paid for all our meals that day at the restaurant in his building...

In the kindest way possible, don't you see what you just said there?

You literally are the people parking inside our cultural treasures / former economic engines. Even as you support others.

Can't you see the conflict?