'White Skin Privilege', from a white perspective....

[gazhekwe]

Why, thank you, Vetal! I have been working on this all my life, it seems. I am happy if what I have learned can help others.

[vetalalumni]

Why, thank you, Vetal! I have been working on this all my life, it seems. I am happy if what I have learned can help others.

I will certainly restudy the objectivity and veracity of your words in this thread. Part of learning is to understand "a thing" to the degree where it can be articulated independently. Your [[own) mind, your [[own) thoughts.

Particularly interesting is the distinction between institutional and personal racism [[bias).

Isn't personal racism an entitlement or right? An individual right?

[firstandten]

I have heard that argument before, that racism is about power, so only those who have power can be racist. The extension, that the use of racial slurs has to be dehumanizing, while terms used by blacks against whites are not strong enough, is dangerous in my opinion.

Such terms foster a sense of outrage, a sense that it is OK to hate another race. Even if the hater has no power to affect the major race, he or she does have the power to hurt an individual. Fostering hatred can increase that power. As we continue to break down barriers, power of that community increases, and there will come a time when they can hurt the community of the hated race. Witness our unlamented former Detroit City Council members who openly admitted to discriminatory animus against whites and were applauded for doing so. No one challenged them. That is racism with the power to hurt and control.

I do agree with that assessment. We try to live in a civil society and racial bigotry does nothing to further that goal. My issue is when whites claim to equate acts of racial bigotry with reverse discrimination. I fall into Tim's view that true discrimination is institutionalized and can't be reversed unless the blacks have the power to affect whites on an institutional basis. There are some cases where I could see that happening [[ Detroit city council) but those are rare.

I believe too many times people confuse racial bigotry with racial discrimination. Racial bigotry in which everyone has to a certain degree can be addressed with education and an open mind is especially dangerous in whites because that can be used to justify a system of racial discrimination which affects blacks and other minorities on an institutional basis.

If you define anything that blocks life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness as institutional discrimination you must come to the conclusion that is very difficult for blacks to have any control over whites in that regard.

One of the biggest issues I had with Sstashmoo when we were debating the whole Gates issue a few weeks back is that I think that Sstashmoo was looking at the incident as a personal issue with the lack of respect of one individual to a police officer and I looked at it from a position of institutional abuse of police power even though it was among two individuals.

I think most blacks can get beyond a cross burning, or a snide remark or nasty name calling although we live in a civilized society and shouldn't do that.

What's more problematical is being denied job promotions, mortgage loans, being arrested on shaky grounds etc. Thats the kind of discrimination that concerns me more.

[ghettopalmetto]

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

[Sstashmoo]

GhettoP, Excellent post..

[gazhekwe]

Institutional racism is built on white privilege over many generations. Whites typically do not see it because it is just a way of life. Up until the Civil Rights legislation of the 60, it was legal for blacks to be denied service of any kind, banking, public services, even community services. We are now in the second generation since discriminatory behavior was outlawed. It has taken many many years of work, legislation and court decisions to reach where we are now, still in a state of flux.

I agree with first and ten's well articulated concerns. Personal bias is something we have to learn to overcome. Even after all these years, sometimes it is a task for me, but I keep trying to be a better person. It is the same kind of thing as brushing a persistent fly away from your face. The darn thing WILL buzz you, but you apply your preventive measures, in this case, reason.

Because we are still learning how to work this, we still see the institutional racism. It is hard to see fault in it because it is so pervasive. Some examples:

Redlining for insurance and mortgages
Majority disinvestment in areas with extensive minority populations. Blacks will make integrative moves, whites, as a rule, will not, so businesses stay away which results in community disinvestment.
Community disinvestment, loss of tax base, poorer schools, poor maintenance of community institutions. THis results in poor preparation of minority students for mainstream jobs and lack of availability of jobs to start with.

It is true that around here it is much more common to see black people in positions of power. White only workplaces are far less common. Yet, people are still in a mindset where it could reverse itself quite quickly. That is why continued vigilance and practice is needed.

For anyone who feels they were denied work because of their race or color, be it white or black or other, there are two places that can investigate your complaint, Michigan Department of Civil Rights or Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In addition, some communities also have investigative agencies.

[vetalalumni]

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

Good questions. There are very good answers as well. The tone [[of the questions) will unfortunately irritate some at the outset however. My turn gazhekwe? Anyone else that can answer [[without the unnecessary reciprocal vitriol)?

If you define anything that blocks life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness as institutional discrimination you must come to the conclusion that is very difficult for blacks to have any control over whites in that regard.

Can you please clarify?

... was looking at the incident as a personal issue with the lack of respect of one individual to a police officer and I looked at it from a position of institutional abuse of police power even though it was among two individuals.

I get both views firstandten.

I think most blacks can get beyond a cross burning, or a snide remark or nasty name calling ...

Indeed.

[gazhekwe]

One other thought, poor student preparation and uncertain work ethic creates a stereotypic mindset in employers. Minority applicants still have to cross over that hurdle and may be bypassed in favor of white applicants despite real qualifications.

[Detroit Stylin]

Institutional racism is built on white privilege over many generations. Whites typically do not see it because it is just a way of life. Up until the Civil Rights legislation of the 60, it was legal for blacks to be denied service of any kind, banking, public services, even community services. We are now in the second generation since discriminatory behavior was outlawed. It has taken many many years of work, legislation and court decisions to reach where we are now, still in a state of flux.

I agree with first and ten's well articulated concerns. Personal bias is something we have to learn to overcome. Even after all these years, sometimes it is a task for me, but I keep trying to be a better person. It is the same kind of thing as brushing a persistent fly away from your face. The darn thing WILL buzz you, but you apply your preventive measures, in this case, reason.

Because we are still learning how to work this, we still see the institutional racism. It is hard to see fault in it because it is so pervasive. Some examples:

Redlining for insurance and mortgages
Majority disinvestment in areas with extensive minority populations. Blacks will make integrative moves, whites, as a rule, will not, so businesses stay away which results in community disinvestment.
Community disinvestment, loss of tax base, poorer schools, poor maintenance of community institutions. THis results in poor preparation of minority students for mainstream jobs and lack of availability of jobs to start with.

It is true that around here it is much more common to see black people in positions of power. White only workplaces are far less common. Yet, people are still in a mindset where it could reverse itself quite quickly. That is why continued vigilance and practice is needed.

For anyone who feels they were denied work because of their race or color, be it white or black or other, there are two places that can investigate your complaint, Michigan Department of Civil Rights or Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In addition, some communities also have investigative agencies.

...will you marry me?

[Pam]

will you marry me?

Sorry D-S, I think she has a Mr. already.

[Detroit Stylin]

Sorry D-S, I think she has a Mr. already.

lol I know Pam.....but the way she so eloquently stated what I have been trying to explain to some caucasian people I have known for years.

[ghettopalmetto]

Our country's original illegal aliens and domestic terrorists were pilgrims and puritans they also were the original white privledge people..

Tim Wise is old news and his work at end of the day does not change white folks nor prevents them from being white and engaging in white privledge..I tell my Black friends to ignore him and not depend on him to enlighten white folks..White privledge is a pathological diease and co-hort of white supremacy all whites express white privledge especially white liberals whose denial in this area is oten more lethal than the usual AWM suspects..

White Jews also have the diease of white privledge their denial is almost as arrogant as white liberals but worst becuase it is wrapped in religion..

So, I pose to you the question: What privileges am I afforded by mere virtue of being white? About what am I in denial?

I don't remember being waved through the Toll Booth of Life just because of my white skin. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Detroit Stylin]

Ever been stoped for DWW? Followed around a mall? Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police? Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" ? Been denied employment even though you exceeded the requirments under the guise that you are over qualified?And so on and so on just for starters of course.

[gibran]

Generalizations, labels, gross inequalities, lack of awareness of the disparities, people trying to trump each other's experiences, ....great way to keep the feud going and never really addressing the issues...just imagine for a moment that we all slow down and listen to each others story and see that person as an individual...acknowledge their pain and suffering, then extend resources and humanity to them and say "while we can't fix your past pain without a lot of work, what do we need to do going forward" how do we gain trust and friendship now. You have to understand the dynamics of how power has hurt others, and you also have to acknowledge that the system is far from being corrected, but what is most important is what do you want the future to become. Generalizations build silos, and silos keep people away from each other. Thus increasing that seperation... We also keep silos to insure our control or identity: the result keeps hate alive...it is when we start having opportunities [[loans, jobs etc.) extended to each other equally and forgiveness; that we evolve. Healing is about acknowledging your own role in your experience and then finding your value and worth and extending it to all people equally. Never letting another define your worth and abilities, but recognizing that they have had their own experiences. Divided we will fail..labeling we will fail, demonizing eachother we will fail. Our country is flawed from it's conception [[ genocide and slavery are our orginal sins, white privlege an extention, labeling white liberals etc [[labeling and generalization) is it's displacement...but it's salvation is forgiveness and understanding. For we are stronger because of our diversity not weaker.

Understanding and stop blaming the victim is a true starting point. Stop generalizations for hose turn people off that are truly searching for relationships. Remember, we construct prejudice [[no child is born withit) so we as a people can decontruct it... I see it everyday evolving at my work, and I am proud to be part of a system that has embraced the social justice model. [[ You all should read about is sometime). We break sterotypes down every day [[even though I am one of those scary liberals-but not in denial).

[ghettopalmetto]

Ever been stoped for DWW? Followed around a mall? Walking with a group of friends and getting stopped by police? Get stopped by police and say "you look like a suspect in X crime" and so on and so on just for starters of course.

You ever been CONVICTED of any crime associated with any of that?

Sure, racially profiling is not morally correct. And it's certainly an inconvenience at best. But how does being followed at the mall for wearing your pants off your ass prevent anyone from getting an education or a job?

I guess I was never followed at the mall much as a teenager, though, because I spent my time between work, extra-curriculars, and my studies instead of aimlessly roaming on someone else's private property.

[gibran]

..

The issue remains for people of color is how to deal with white racism clearly as a cultural dna of white folks it will always be a part of reality in America and it will morph and evolve in many incarnations..

How to deal with the reality of white cultural pathological shortcomings i.e discrimination, exclusionary practices, prejudice and negative group behaviors..

while there has always been racism there has always been those willing to fight for others and not perpetuate it.There has always been others who can get past the obvious and imagine a world evolving into something better for all; and working for it ..not letting themselves become part of the status quo.. Try not to genralize and maybe you become part of the solution.

[Detroit Stylin]

You ever been CONVICTED of any crime associated with any of that?

Sure, racially profiling is not morally correct. And it's certainly an inconvenience at best. But how does being followed at the mall for wearing your pants off your ass prevent anyone from getting an education or a job?

How many stories do you hear of minority men and women [[mostly Black however), spend decades in jail or get put to death only to find out after the fact that they were innocent in a crime?


And BTW Don't get it twisted with dumb azz young people who keeps up with the latest fashion. Just ask someone with a "Black" sounding name how many times they have been turned down for a job depsite being fully qualified. Idiot.

[ghettopalmetto]

How many stories do you hear of minority men and women [[mostly Black however), spend decades in jail or get put to death only to find out after the fact that they were innocent in a crime?


And BTW Don't get it twisted with dumb az young people who don't know how to dress. Just ask someone with a "B lack" sounding name how many times they have been turned down for a job depsite being fully qualified. Idiot.

Who are those innocent minority men and women that would otherwise be Fortune 500 execs? I'm sure they just stumbled into the wrong place at the wrong time, didn't they?

I know many bright, successful people of all races. And I know moronic underachievers of all races. The difference between them is that one of these two groups of people busts their ass in spite of circumstances [[because we ALL have circumstances) and the other makes excuses. Which one are you?

Shit. I've been turned down for jobs too. And I have a *very* ethnic last name. But I never bitched once or blamed WASPy for my problems.

[gibran]

Problem or solution ..what have you actually done [[in discussion other than perpetuate building a silo)...where is your discussion other than generalizations.. [[ignoring is a great deflection..kinda like the "I have mine crowd"..entrenched in the status quo)... When you are working to stop the great divide get back to me... until then you are part of the problem...

Maybe if your read my entire post you would understand that I get the whole historical perspective and I acknowledge the demonizing of people is a tool to control and wage wars against others...now if you would like to tell me your story, I would gladly listen and try to understand your pain. But, it seems that you have made up your mind [[kinda like those you rally against)...by the way I work each day helping people who have been disenfranchised because of disability find opportunity...so if you want to slow down and hear my story I would be glad to tell you how disabilities are the great equal opportunity equalizer [[all people get them) and how minorities with disabilities have a higher degree of disparity.. but in your own words I am another [[generalization) that doesn't get it ..or are you just afraid of getting it.

[firstandten]

Can someone explain to me what privileges are allegedly endowed to me as a white man?

I was lucky enough to be born to working-class parents who cared enough to feed and clothe me, take me to the doctor, and make sure I did well in school. I busted my ass to put myself through college and get my career to where it's at now. That doesn't have a single damned thing to do with being white.

All I'm saying, is I've been on this rock for over 30 years, and I haven't seen a single check or free pass on account of my being white.

It was certainly true in the past that racism was institutionalized. But at the same time blacks were relegated to menial jobs, my first-generation American grandfathers were both working menial jobs to support six kids.

When does one decide to start taking responsibility for his own lot in life? Luck comes to those who work for it.

Most of us need a leg up to some extent, but one cannot neglect to avail himself of opportunities, and then blame his failures on Whitey. That's just lazy bullshit.

You make an implied assumption that blacks and other minorities don't take advantage of opportunities and blame whitey for their failures. You seem to equate white priviledge as nothing but a crutch for minorities that its really not real.

Going back to a quote from Tim Wise

And indeed there is far more sympathy expressed for the white poor, historically and today, than for the black and brown poor: another form of implicit preference for, and privileging of, whiteness. Now that the economy is imploding, one can hear concern expressed about the poor [[especially the once middle-class poor, mostly constructed as white), and how terrible it is that they are now facing such hardships. Yet when those same hardships were being experienced by the urban black and brown [[whose communities have been in a recession or even depression state for entire generations in some cases) little sympathy attached."

another quote:

"That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.
So, for instance, studies have found that job applicants with white sounding names are 50% more likely to receive a call-back for a job interview than applicants with black-sounding names, even when all job-related qualifications and credentials are the same.
Other studies have found that white men with a criminal record are more likely to get a call-back for an interview than black male job applicants who don't have one, even when all requisite qualifications, demeanor and communication styles are the same.
Others have found that white women are far more likely than black women to be hired for work through temporary agencies, even when the black women have more experience and are more qualified "

Examples such as the above go on and on and on

So I understand that your family worked hard but understand for blacks and other minorities privilege is the flip side of discrimination. If a black suffers from housing discrimination thats another place a white can live.

You make an assumption we are all dealing on a level playing field even if its a hard and difficult one and I don't believe that to be the case.

[UFO]

I think Im starting to believe that Malcom X was right when he suggested "complete separation of the black and white races'.

It seems like this is only going to get uglier as time goes by thanks to the race hustlers on both sides of the fence.

[gibran]

thats the whole concept of social justice "how do we equalize the playing field for all people"...if we recognize inequalities do exist [[and the do)...then WHO can re allocate resources to help the stakeholders correct it..

In my community [[there is really only one community) we know that African Americans have higher degree of heart disease than their counterparts..so we look to the root causes of diet, stress and genetics ... Our focus is to attract grocery stores into the community so that people can have healthy choices [[other than canned in 7/11's or fast food)...then we make sure children have available better food choices in school, education...after school programs..that's how you correct the % of higher heart disease...it takes a multivariate approach to something that appears as just a statistic. The problem is that resources and never allocated equally and as soon as we all recognize our stake in over all health for everyone we can correct this..Somethings are easier to mitigate than others...structure the interventions to fit the community...not one sizing it.

[gazhekwe]

GhettoPalmetto: one of these two groups of people busts their ass in spite of circumstances

Hmm, we have been talking about conditions in black and in white communities, and while angrily denying any privilege for yourself, and insisting on laziness and lack of initiative for blacks, you come up with that wonderfully illustrative statement. It seems obvious from your previous assertions that you feels whites will work to overcome disadvantages while blacks will not.

That is a damaging stereotype commonly applied by whites to blacks. "I made it and nobody helped me. There must be something wrong with them." Well, sir, what is wrong with them is that you and a large majority of the white interests that control our society have this incontrovertible bias applied to all black people before any other information is put in. As a result, black people are often still viewed as inferior candidates for jobs BEFORE THEIR APPLICATION IS EVEN READ. Oh, graduated from Mackenzie, well, we'll put this aside unless there is no one better. Oh, Latronda Jackson, what a name. We'll put this one aside too. Oh, address in 48212. We'll put that one in the maybe pile.

That is one HUGE privilege you have, to be not scrutinized through a veil of bias.

[gibran]

UFO that is not the answer ...got to keep working for a better society, and not give up when encountering barriers errected out of fear or other issues [[which cycles to fear). Actually, I have seen it everyday in my work..and it is great when you see the light bulbs clicking an dpeople really listening and working together...then we hold hands and sing kumbya.

[firstandten]

thats the whole concept of social justice "how do we equalize the playing field for all people"...if we recognize inequalities do exist [[and the do)...then hwo can re allocate resources to help the stakeholders correct it..

In my community [[there is really only one community) we know that African Americans have higher degree of heart disease than their countrparts..so we look to the root causes of diet, stress and genetics ... Our focus is to attract grocery stores into the community so that people can have healthy choices [[other than canned in 7/11's or fast food)...then we make sure children have available better food choices in school, education...after school programs..thats how you correct the % of higher heart disease...it takes a multivariate approach to something that appears as just a statistic. The problem is that resources and never allocate dequally and as soon as we all recognize our stake in over all health for everyone we can correct this..Somethings are easier to mitigate than others...structure the interventions to fit the community...not one sizing it.

The thing that we as a community need to do especially in areas of social justice is that people too often look at social justice as a fixed pie. If I get a bigger piece to correct an injustice then the next guy gets a smaller piece. We need to look at the pie as expanding not fixed. A lot of it is because we have an individualistic culture in this country and a sense of I don't want to give up what I have to make you whole.