When Detroit elected a Marxist, Communist and Socialist....

[Colombian Dan]

So much history packed into this film..
The more things change the more they stay the same....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzEoyXTf22o

[Bham1982]

Except Detroit never did any of these things, and there's no chance of Detroit doing any of these things anytime in the near future.

The same people always screaming about socialism [[which doesn't exist anywhere in the U.S., and has no chance of existing) have no problem goose-stepping alongside the quasi-fascist in the White House. The existential threat to America is internal, and present.

[GMan]

Except Detroit never did any of these things, and there's no chance of Detroit doing any of these things anytime in the near future.

The same people always screaming about socialism [[which doesn't exist anywhere in the U.S., and has no chance of existing) have no problem goose-stepping alongside the quasi-fascist in the White House. The existential threat to America is internal, and present.

Young was supposedly CPUSA member.

[Colombian Dan]

I haven't seen a Socialist/Communist society succeed anywhere in the world... and where it has been tried and or implemented only poverty, misery and despair remains...
As my Venezuelan coworkers remind everyday at work in Bogota, when the government keeps handing out "free" stuff everyday that's a sure sign of failure down the road....

[Don K]

I haven't seen a Socialist/Communist society succeed anywhere in the world

WRT to the ex-communist countries of Central/Eastern Europe pre-1989, I'd agree with you.

But what about Canada? They effectively nationalized the health-insurance industry 50-60 years ago. Is that socialist? True they haven't gone full public-ownership-of the means-of-production, but then who in the U.S. today advocates for such things? Even Bernie Sanders would be viewed as a pale imitation by such as Eugene Debs.

[401don]

WRT to the ex-communist countries of Central/Eastern Europe pre-1989, I'd agree with you.

But what about Canada? They effectively nationalized the health-insurance industry 50-60 years ago. Is that socialist? True they haven't gone full public-ownership-of the means-of-production, but then who in the U.S. today advocates for such things? Even Bernie Sanders would be viewed as a pale imitation by such as Eugene Debs.

Canada, like Britain, instituted national health care shortly after WW2. It's simply a common sense policy that all industrialized countries outside of the USA would see as essential an entitlement as old age security. Hardly a step toward socialism.

[poobert]

Want to stop socialism? Stop making capitalism look so fucking bad.

I agree that socialism is a bad idea. But I also think that having a a deranged lunatic in the White House is a bad idea.

Someone like Gretchen Whitmer is a hell of a lot closer to the political center than any Republican these days. Since when does fiscal conservativism mean blowing the deficit wide open, anyway?

I don't like the Democrats but the Republicans are absolutely off the rails, slobbing the knob of a madman as he plunges the country into chaos and division. Most of the country is tired of their shit too and doesn't give a damn about this crusty Cold War bullshit about some socialist boogeyman. Like who? Fucking Brezhnev? One trillion dollars in student loan debt. A broken healthcare system. Those are actual problems.

[Király]

I haven't seen a Socialist/Communist society succeed anywhere in the world...

Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden seem to have socialism figured out. They are democratic socialist societies, with high taxes, strong social programs, and the happiest people on the planet. It seems that low taxes and cheap consumer goods aren't the keys to happiness that conservatives would have us believe.

[Miss Gabrielle]

I haven't seen a Socialist/Communist society succeed anywhere in the world... and where it has been tried and or implemented only poverty, misery and despair remains...
As my Venezuelan coworkers remind everyday at work in Bogota, when the government keeps handing out "free" stuff everyday that's a sure sign of failure down the road....

China seems to be doing ok! Venezuela was hugely corrupt and mismanaged.

[EastsideAl]

China seems to be doing ok! Venezuela was hugely corrupt and mismanaged.

I find the whole panic on the right about communism and socialism to be very bizarre at a time when the Cold War has been over for nearly 30 years. Especially with the fastest growing economy on earth [[and our #1 trading partner) being a "communist" country, with several "socialist" countries in Europe doing better than we are in most measures of quality of life, and with our president's best overseas buddy being a former KGB agent.

[aj3647]

China is NOT a communist country. They haven't been a communist country for decades. They are a one-party authoritarian state with a partially centrally-planned economy [[it's more of a mix of central planning and capitalism).

China actually has more billionaires than any country on earth, even more than the United States. If China were a communist country, it would have zero billionaires.

Anytime I see anyone using the terms "communism" or "socialism" on the Internet, 98% of the time they are using those terms incorrectly. In fact, I would wager that most of the people using those terms would be wholly unable to even accurately describe what they actually mean without having to look it up on wikipedia first.

[EastsideAl]

China is NOT a communist country. They haven't been a communist country for decades. They are a one-party authoritarian state with a partially centrally-planned economy [[it's more of a mix of central planning and capitalism).

China actually has more billionaires than any country on earth, even more than the United States. If China were a communist country, it would have zero billionaires.

Anytime I see anyone using the terms "communism" or "socialism" on the Internet, 98% of the time they are using those terms incorrectly. In fact, I would wager that most of the people using those terms would be wholly unable to even accurately describe what they actually mean without having to look it up on wikipedia first.

I agree that there is almost nothing about the current Chinese economy that is communist, in the true sense of the term. Even in the political history sense of the term, bent into shape by Soviet and Maoist excesses, the only thing about China that remains "communist" is the centralized authoritarianism and overwhelming bureaucracy that worms its way into almost all activities.

But the single legal ruling party is still called the Communist Party of China, and still puts out a hell of a lot of propaganda about the revolution and the victory of the proletariat. Having spent a fair of time in China, and having a cousin who has lived there for over 20 years now, I can tell you that folks there sure can't stop telling outsiders about the greatness of Chinese communism, the historical glory of Mao, and the wonders of communist egalitarianism [[even as they grumble about the growing inequalities, and happily engage in all sorts of capitalist enterprise).

It's really a weird contradiction. But certainly also far from the communist boogeyman of fevered rightist American fantasies. In fact, most Republicans [[like my cousin) just love doing business there, since authoritarian monopoly capitalism [[and high margins on cheaply produced goods) is in fact their real dream.

[Colombian Dan]

China seems to be doing ok! Venezuela was hugely corrupt and mismanaged.

China is an absolute mess.. You don't see too many Mexicans, Russians, Indians or Americans flocking to live in China. Who wants to live under government rules telling you what you can say or post online...

[Colombian Dan]

Coleman A Young and Walter Reuther were both members of the CPUSA before WWII.....

[EastsideAl]

Coleman A Young and Walter Reuther were both members of the CPUSA before WWII.....

Walter Reuther in fact actively pushed the Communists, and eventually almost everyone left of reformist New Deal Democrats, out of the UAW leadership. He was one of the founders of the staunchly anti-Communist Americans for Democratic Action in 1947.

[poobert]

Walter Reuther in fact actively pushed the Communists, and eventually almost everyone left of reformist New Deal Democrats, out of the UAW leadership. He was one of the founders of the staunchly anti-Communist Americans for Democratic Action in 1947.

It is very telling that the far-right is now so unabashed in their lying that they will go so far as labeling someone who was an ardent anti-communist as a communist simply because they were left of themselves on the political spectrum.

[EastsideAl]

It is very telling that the far-right is now so unabashed in their lying that they will go so far as labeling someone who was an ardent anti-communist as a communist simply because they were left of themselves on the political spectrum.

And they continue to do it to living anti-communists too: witness the insane demonization of George Soros.

[Lowell]

And they continue to do it to living anti-communists too: witness the insane demonization of George Soros.

Soros has become code-speak for Jew and as a "globalist" = [insert dog whistle] a part of the international Jewish conspiracy as in 1930's talk.

As for socialism, we have tons of it, starting with the military, which is also an authoritarian form of socialism, where citizens are placed in an obey-or-die servitude and the means of production are monopolized by the state for non-competitive bids by American-only companies.

Then there is the public education system, the roads, most infrastructure, social security, medicare, medicaid, farm subsidies and on and on.

American socialism is deeply embedded and its benefits enjoyed hundreds of millions.

[dtowncitylover]

Awesome! Thanks for the amazing find. Yeah, Detroit's great failures are much more a indictment on free market/capitalist and neoliberal forces. Suburbanization, de-industrialization, segregation.

CAY might've been a communist before, but he was buddy buddy with many business leaders.

Power to the people!

[poobert]

CAY might've been a communist before, but he was buddy buddy with many business leaders.

Interestingly, you could say the same about Sheila Cockrel [[nee Murphy). I can't speak for Ken Cockrel Sr., as he died decades ago. I voted for his son who is very moderate and a very nice person.

I'm not a CAY fan, but I'd say he did what he could - I believe, rather poorly - with what dwindling resources he had. Had the city not been on a downward spiral the results may have been a little different, but probably not dramatically.

So much for all the stink about ideology.

[Hermod]

CAY might have wanted to be a socialist, but he had zero power to appropriate the "means of production" for the government. In the e3nd, he sold out to capitalism in exchange for bribes to feather his own nest.

Detroit's failures were that they did not recognoze the economic trend of suburbanization and seek to counter it. "Just hit 8 Mile" had an additional kicker of "Take your earning power with you".

[kathy2trips]

CAY might have wanted to be a socialist, but he had zero power to appropriate the "means of production" for the government. In the e3nd, he sold out to capitalism in exchange for bribes to feather his own nest.

Detroit's failures were that they did not recognoze the economic trend of suburbanization and seek to counter it. "Just hit 8 Mile" had an additional kicker of "Take your earning power with you".

Do you remember or know exactly when/where that "hit 8 Mile" remark was made?

I recall at my 1979 WSU Commencement at Cobo Hall that Young gave the commencement speech. I don't remember what he said because we were all to busy there on the main floor talking among ourselves in our caps & gown to find out who had a job, and if they could get us one, too.

After it was over, it was tradition to walk down to the river in your cap & gown and get your picture taken with Windsor there in the back ground....real nice. Only my parents were FURIOUS and made me return my cap & gown immediately so we could "get the hell out of here, like the mayor said" [[as my dad said) and no photo by the river for old kathy2trips!

I always wondered if that was the speech. If not I wonder what was said. I never could find a copy of it online.

[Wesley Mouch]

CAY might have wanted to be a socialist, but he had zero power to appropriate the "means of production" for the government. In the e3nd, he sold out to capitalism in exchange for bribes to feather his own nest.

The fatal flaw of socialism [[and communism) isn't the idea. Its a fine idea. Its the implementation. History shows that good intentions of the 'expert planners' necessary for a state-run economy find ways of 'feathering their own nests'.

CAY, as a victim of white supremacy*, felt that a communist state would 'correct' the errors of capitalism, and 'empower' blacks. I don't think he ever changed his mind. He just additionally decided that he needed more cash to maintain his political station, so bribes and graft were just necessary tools to achieve justice.

Detroit's failures were that they did not recognoze the economic trend of suburbanization and seek to counter it. "Just hit 8 Mile" had an additional kicker of "Take your earning power with you".

Again, there's an important truth here that people enthralled with socialism and the Bernie Sanders of the world need to heed.

CAY believed that Detroit's economy engine would continue to run even as he chased white power away. He was wrong. They took most economic development with him, leaving him more dependant on handouts from friends in high places. Thus was born Poletown, Joe Louis [[needed for the Republic National Convention), the People Mover, Washington Boulevard re-design, etc.

Lesson... economic power is hard to create, and requires energy to maintain. Destruction of the existing order is a bad first step to equality.

[JBMcB]

The fatal flaw of socialism [[and communism) isn't the idea. Its a fine idea. Its the implementation.

No, it's a fine idea if you have a very small community with a very simple economy. It works great if you are a frontier commune, or a small village in the middle of nowhere. The problem is it doesn't scale.

Here is the problem with planned economies. Imagine a giant chart with all the stuff you need to make in a modern economy. Band-aids, electricity, steel, bolts, nails, rubber, cotton, wool, fertilizer, apples, concrete, sheetrock, 2x4s, rare earth metals, glass, houses, loudspeakers, pencils, coffee, paint, scalpels, pants, bicycles... you name it. Now imagine all the inputs and outputs for all of these things. To make steel you need water, scrap steel, iron ore, natural gas and coal. To mine coal you need machines. To build those machines you need electricity and steel. To make electricity you need to mine coal. Miners need food. To refrigerate food you need electricity. You have, literally, millions of arrows going in every direction and looping back in on themselves.

In a planned socialist economy, someone [[workers councils, ostensibly) has to sit there and figure out what needs to be made. And there's the problem. When you have that many nodes on a graph the solution is nearly impossible. To know how much steel to make you need to know all the things that are going to be made that need steel. To know how much coal to mine you need to know how much stuff is going to need coal, including steel. The needs loop back on themselves in insanely complicated ways. You can never get an optimal answer. The best you can do is guess. Which is why shortages of nearly everything are rampant in socialist economies.

Market economies get around this using pricing as information to the market. Price goes up, more gets made. Price goes down, less gets made. There are all kinds of issues and problems with this, which is why the field of economics exists.

[Luke09]

Biggest problem in the US are the two parties. We are stuck in perpetual fighting, and focus on making the other party look bad. Congress really isn't concerned with the American people, they're only concerned about your vote and their career [[meaning money), not all of them, but most of them. Yet we will have voters vote straight Rep or Dem, and that just fuels the politicians current behavior. This country needs to judge people as individuals, not their political, religion, race, gender, zip codes or whatever else affiliations lame brains want to make quick judgements on. If you're a Republican, read up on the Dem candidates, and vice-versa.