Most Valuable Downtown Detroit Real Estate

[iheartthed]

And as has already been pointed out...1) that simply isn’t true, and 2) this isn’t Chicago or the coasts. Detroit real estate is cheap and the buildings are worth far more than the land. Also, the Book Cadillac financials are completely upside down, so that’s a terrible example. Likewise, the Ren Cen only had one interested buyer and sold for 20% of what it cost to build it, so that’s another poor example.

The Book Cadillac existed before:
The Palace
The Silverdome
Joe Louis Arena
Cobo Arena
Olympia Stadium

Barring some catastrophe, the Book Cadillac will be there after Comerica Park, Ford Field, and Little Caesars are gone.

[Towne Cluber]

The Book Cadillac existed before:
The Palace
The Silverdome
Joe Louis Arena
Cobo Arena
Olympia Stadium

Barring some catastrophe, the Book Cadillac will be there after Comerica Park, Ford Field, and Little Caesars are gone.

So the topic is going to just keep shifting and conflating...

Ok, well the Tigers existed before the Book Cadillac and the Tigers, Red Wings, Lions, and Pistons will be around after the Book Cadillac is gone.

[iheartthed]

So the topic is going to just keep shifting and conflating...

Ok, well the Tigers existed before the Book Cadillac and the Tigers, Red Wings, Lions, and Pistons will be around after the Book Cadillac is gone.

Hence the point. The stadiums are effectively worthless. It is the teams that have the value. That is why the team will exist after the stadium does not.

[Towne Cluber]

Hence the point. The stadiums are effectively worthless. It is the teams that have the value. That is why the team will exist after the stadium does not.

This has been repeatedly covered and that’s not at all how valuation works. By that line of reasoning, any given company’s building[[s) doesn’t have any value. Among other things, stadia aren’t built for free and insurance companies don’t cover things that are worthless.

[Bham1982]

So an area that was skid row for half a century with one building partially used by the Salvation Army and another area across the street with one building still occupied in the 80s as a subsidized senior housing [[and another building that closed in the 90s after its tenant’s 99 year lease expired) should not have been redeveloped? Got it. Only in Detroit!

You have it completely reversed. Only in Detroit would people be so reckless as to flatten critical prewar fabric in place of suburban sports palaces and parking fields.

Bowery was skid row in Manhattan for over a century. Those idiots should have flattened the whole thing for a parking lot! Instead those dummies did nothing and now the area is one of the most expensive and vibrant neighborhoods on the planet.

Same thing goes for SoHo, Flatiron, and a host of neighborhoods. All former skid rows, all ignored during the urban renewal era, all now among the most expensive and desirable neighborhoods on the planet.

[Towne Cluber]

You have it completely reversed. Only in Detroit would people be so reckless as to flatten critical prewar fabric in place of suburban sports palaces and parking fields.

Bowery was skid row in Manhattan for over a century. Those idiots should have flattened the whole thing for a parking lot! Instead those dummies did nothing and now the area is one of the most expensive and vibrant neighborhoods on the planet.

Same thing goes for SoHo, Flatiron, and a host of neighborhoods. All former skid rows, all ignored during the urban renewal era, all now among the most expensive and desirable neighborhoods on the planet.

Once again you are incorrect. I get it that you don’t like sports [[or much of anything else) but sports teams started and are mostly still based in cities, not suburbs. LCA is located on land that was mostly vacant [[with a couple of abandoned buildings) for decades. Ford Field incorporated the warehouse of a department store that closed in the early-mid 1980s). The only somewhat reasonable argument could be made against Comerica Park. Even then, and with all things considered, officials made the best decision they could at the time.

[iheartthed]

This has been repeatedly covered and that’s not at all how valuation works. By that line of reasoning, any given company’s building[[s) doesn’t have any value. Among other things, stadia aren’t built for free and insurance companies don’t cover things that are worthless.

Buildings are worth what someone else will pay for it. Who are they going to sell Comerica Park to if the Tigers departed for another market? The only reason someone else would buy it would be to tear it down and build something else more useful on the land. However, if Westin were to disappear tomorrow, another hotel operator would be eager to scoop the Book Cadillac up.

[Towne Cluber]

Buildings are worth what someone else will pay for it. Who are they going to sell Comerica Park to if the Tigers departed for another market? The only reason someone else would buy it would be to tear it down and build something else more useful on the land. However, if Westin were to disappear tomorrow, another hotel operator would be eager to scoop the Book Cadillac up.

All things [[and even people as in work and insurance) are worth what someone else will pay for it. Be careful with describing eagerness when it comes to Detroit, and in general. Remember, the Tigers have never closed down operations, but the Book Cadillac [[as well as other Detroit hotels) did...

[bragaboutme]

I would go for the argument of Comerica park as being the most valuable building downtown. The amount of visiting people [[more than 3 million in peak years) pumped more money into the Downtown economy than any other building including the Rent Cen. That alone let's me know the value and return on investment to not only the stadium it's self, but to the surrounding area. After the would be the Casinos. Then on from there. Ford Field is valuable only in season, but only after key office buildings re

[iheartthed]

All things [[and even people as in work and insurance) are worth what someone else will pay for it. Be careful with describing eagerness when it comes to Detroit, and in general. Remember, the Tigers have never closed down operations, but the Book Cadillac [[as well as other Detroit hotels) did...

The Tigers did leave a building vacant and it remained vacant until it was demolished. And the building they left wasn't that much older than the Book Cadillac. If the Tigers were to move to another city next season the same thing would likely happen to CP as happened to Tiger Stadium, unless another MLB replaced them in Detroit. But if Westin [[Marriott) disappeared tomorrow, the BC almost certainly would find a buyer immediately.

In all cities, from New York to Los Angeles to Detroit, the sports stadiums are worthless for uses other than sports [[and an occasional concert). And there is a very, very limited market of professional sports teams. The stadium itself has no value without the team. This is unlike nearly every other building downtown, which can be re-adapted to other uses if the tenant disappears.

[Bham1982]

I would go for the argument of Comerica park as being the most valuable building downtown.

LOL. Comerica Park is worth roughly 0.

And your argument would mean that the most valuable piece of land in Detroit is I-75, since that has the highest traffic/attracts the most people.

[Towne Cluber]

The Tigers did leave a building vacant and it remained vacant until it was demolished. And the building they left wasn't that much older than the Book Cadillac. If the Tigers were to move to another city next season the same thing would likely happen to CP as happened to Tiger Stadium, unless another MLB replaced them in Detroit. But if Westin [[Marriott) disappeared tomorrow, the BC almost certainly would find a buyer immediately.

In all cities, from New York to Los Angeles to Detroit, the sports stadiums are worthless for uses other than sports [[and an occasional concert). And there is a very, very limited market of professional sports teams. The stadium itself has no value without the team. This is unlike nearly every other building downtown, which can be re-adapted to other uses if the tenant disappears.

Funny how the value of teams increases significantly with new or renovated stadiums and decreases with outdated facilities. Also, with Detroit’s troubles landing big, major chain [[not boutique) hotels, I wouldn’t use the term “immediately” so freely.

[Towne Cluber]

LOL. Comerica Park is worth roughly 0.

And your argument would mean that the most valuable piece of land in Detroit is I-75, since that has the highest traffic/attracts the most people.

Well, a lot of goods and manpower flows through I-75, so you actually made a good point about it’s value! Well done sir!

[Towne Cluber]

The Tigers did leave a building vacant and it remained vacant until it was demolished. And the building they left wasn't that much older than the Book Cadillac. If the Tigers were to move to another city next season the same thing would likely happen to CP as happened to Tiger Stadium, unless another MLB replaced them in Detroit. But if Westin [[Marriott) disappeared tomorrow, the BC almost certainly would find a buyer immediately.

In all cities, from New York to Los Angeles to Detroit, the sports stadiums are worthless for uses other than sports [[and an occasional concert). And there is a very, very limited market of professional sports teams. The stadium itself has no value without the team. This is unlike nearly every other building downtown, which can be re-adapted to other uses if the tenant disappears.

In LA, after the Staples Center [[Kings/Lakers/Clippers) was built in 1999, The Forum was sold for $22.5m and converted into a mega church. In 2012, it was sold again for $23.5m to MSG and converted into a concert venue.

[Honky Tonk]

In LA, after the Staples Center [[Kings/Lakers/Clippers) was built in 1999, The Forum was sold for $22.5m and converted into a mega church. In 2012, it was sold again for $23.5m to MSG and converted into a concert venue.

Whoopee doopee. In Detroit, Tiger Stadium wasn't worth a hill of beans, and was torn down @ taxpayers expense. Joe Louis isn't worth anything, and that too will be torn down @ taxpayers expense. I guess this ain't LA.

[Bham1982]

In LA, after the Staples Center [[Kings/Lakers/Clippers) was built in 1999, The Forum was sold for $22.5m and converted into a mega church. In 2012, it was sold again for $23.5m to MSG and converted into a concert venue.

You realize that contradicts your point, right? Those are absurdly low prices, indicating the property is essentially worthless.

In LA, one of the most expensive, space constrained markets on the planet, a giant, well-located site sold for peanuts, largely because the site contains an arena. It sold for less than a nicely appointed apartment in a Park Ave. prewar.

If the Forum had sold without the surrounding acreage, and all the parking, it would probably be completely worthless.

[Towne Cluber]

You realize that contradicts your point, right? Those are absurdly low prices, indicating the property is essentially worthless.

In LA, one of the most expensive, space constrained markets on the planet, a giant, well-located site sold for peanuts, largely because the site contains an arena. It sold for less than a nicely appointed apartment in a Park Ave. prewar.

If the Forum had sold without the surrounding acreage, and all the parking, it would probably be completely worthless.

You realize that you keep intentionally posting completely false information, right?

The Forum [[350k sq ft) sold for more per sq ft than the Renaissance Center [[5.5m sq ft).

[Towne Cluber]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baileyb.../#3ee4befa444f

2016 NBA Arena Values

[Bham1982]

You realize that you keep intentionally posting completely false information, right?

The Forum [[350k sq ft) sold for more per sq ft than the Renaissance Center [[5.5m sq ft).

It's not clear if you're lying, clueless or both, but this is a beyond-stupid comparison.

Relative square feet are irrelevant. The Forum Site is valued because of its acreage. It would almost be certainly worth more if there were no Forum [[ie, zero square feet).

And the RenCen hasn't been on the market in decades, has never sold as a complete unit, and has nothing whatsoever to do with land costs in LA. If the entire complex sold today, it would probably fetch near $1 billion, so roughly 40-50x the value of the LA acreage.

[Bham1982]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baileyb.../#3ee4befa444f

2016 NBA Arena Values

You realize this has zero to do with your claims, right? No one is arguing that arenas don't contribute to teams' bottom line.

[Towne Cluber]

It's not clear if you're lying, clueless or both, but this is a beyond-stupid comparison.

Relative square feet are irrelevant. The Forum Site is valued because of its acreage. It would almost be certainly worth more if there were no Forum [[ie, zero square feet).

And the RenCen hasn't been on the market in decades, has never sold as a complete unit, and has nothing whatsoever to do with land costs in LA. If the entire complex sold today, it would probably fetch near $1 billion, so roughly 40-50x the value of the LA acreage.

I’m going to keep making you look like the silly and dishonest person that you are...

In fact, other than One Campus Martius, Ally Tower, and the Greektown Hotel Casino, The Forum sold for more than any of the other downtown office buildings that Dan Gilbert has bought in Detroit.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ings/83681698/

[iheartthed]

In LA, after the Staples Center [[Kings/Lakers/Clippers) was built in 1999, The Forum was sold for $22.5m and converted into a mega church. In 2012, it was sold again for $23.5m to MSG and converted into a concert venue.

It cost $16M to build the Forum in 1966. The Forum was sold to the church in the year 2000, and per inflation that $16M from 1966 would be worth over $82M in 2000. So the building was worth a fraction of what is cost to build it.

The Lakers, on the other hand, were worth about $400M in 2000. Not to mention how much the Clippers and Sparks were worth.

[Towne Cluber]

It cost $16M to build the Forum in 1966. The Forum was sold to the church in the year 2000, and per inflation that $16M from 1966 would be worth over $82M in 2000. So the building was worth a fraction of what is cost to build it.

The Lakers, on the other hand, were worth about $400M in 2000. Not to mention how much the Clippers and Sparks were worth.

1. The same holds true for Downtown Detroit buildings. They’ve all sold for a fraction of what they cost to build.

2. So, are you now retracting at least some of your previous claims about the worth and use of arenas/stadia?

[Bham1982]

I’m going to keep making you look like the silly and dishonest person that you are...

By lying, posting non-sequiturs, and displaying below-zero knowledge of anything related to RE values? LOL.

In fact, other than One Campus Martius, Ally Tower, and the Greektown Hotel Casino, The Forum sold for more than any of the other downtown office buildings that Dan Gilbert has bought in Detroit.

Actually, this is a lie, irrelevant, and indicative of nothing except your extreme ignorance regarding commercial RE. You're completely lost here.

Again, the Forum sold for nothing, the value is inherent in the acreage, not the square footage, a comparison of downtown Detroit office buildings and suburban LA development sites is nonsensical, and all your claimed numbers are wrong anyways.

[Towne Cluber]

By lying, posting non-sequiturs, and displaying below-zero knowledge of anything related to RE values? LOL.



Actually, this is a lie, irrelevant, and indicative of nothing except your extreme ignorance regarding commercial RE. You're completely lost here.

Again, the Forum sold for nothing, the value is inherent in the acreage, not the square footage, a comparison of downtown Detroit office buildings and suburban LA development sites is nonsensical, and all your claimed numbers are wrong anyways.

So your sketchy house-flipping background now makes you an expert on commercial real estate, complex financial analysis, and professional sports management?