Detroit continues to die

[Bham1982]

In terms of job sprawl [[the true objective measure of how suburban a metro area is), Detroit takes that cake as far as being the worst in the country [[followed by Chicago), not Atlanta.

"Job sprawl" is a made-up stat. There is no such Census categorical.

Back in the real world, Atlanta is the sprawliest major metro in the U.S. with a density less than half that of Detroit. Atlanta's density is around 2,000 per mile, and Detroit's density is around 5,000 per mile.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/gener...eaus-take.html

Atlanta may be the sprawliest major metro on the face of the earth. It's pretty much the polar opposite of general preferences here on DYes. It would be like taking Oakland County and spreading it to Lansing.

[313WX]

"Job sprawl" is a made-up stat.

I'll take Brookings word over that of an internet troll.

[Bham1982]

I'll take Brookings word over that of an internet troll.

I would too, hence my point.

Brookings makes no such claim; you're the one who made the claim. You don't seem to understand the report you cited.

Here's the actual report, not that it has anything to do with the topic:
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...ll_raphael.pdf

[313WX]

Brookings makes no such claim;

Brookings makes no such claim about what?

[Gistok]

Atlanta MSA area: 28 counties, 8300 sq. miles... pop. 5.9 million.

Detroit MSA area: 6 counties, 3900 sq. miles... pop. 4.3 million.

You can find all the anecdotes or references you want. These stats say a lot.

[O3H]

Let's focus on DETROIT proper, it's city limits.

THAT is the continuing problem - stop with the red herrings, straw men, etc, etc.

Stick to DETROIT -- because what happens elsewhere; is exactly that ----
..................................somewhere NOT Detroit ...............

Not a soul has gone toe-to-toe with me on accounting/ tax base.
What exactly is coming to Detroit , in the city limits, besides entertainment ?
Clothing, widgets, what-cha-ma-callits , yada, yada, yada ?????????

If Dan Gilbert sells off all of his casino and gambling interests,
that could clear the way for him to buy -- other stuff --- think about it.
He is a business man, not a Detroit cheerleader.
Gilbert's gambling holdings include Greektown Casino-Hotel
in Detroit, which he bought in 2013.

An eye-popping 87% of all single-family home and
condominium buyers in the first half of 2018 - paid cash in DETROIT.
That means no banks, made money on interest, in Detroit. !!!!

Detroit is far, far, away from turning the corner on much of anything, soon.

[mwilbert]

Let's focus on DETROIT proper, it's city limits.

THAT is the continuing problem - stop with the red herrings, straw men, etc, etc.

Stick to DETROIT -- because what happens elsewhere; is exactly that ----
..................................somewhere NOT Detroit ...............

Not a soul has gone toe-to-toe with me on accounting/ tax base.
What exactly is coming to Detroit , in the city limits, besides entertainment ?
Clothing, widgets, what-cha-ma-callits , yada, yada, yada ?????????

Detroit provides entertainment [[and education and health and headquarters and labor) services to the rest of the region. That is a perfectly sound basis for an urban economy, as long as the region is reasonably healthy, which it currently is.

And Detroit's tax revenues are rising nicely, as property values and individual incomes rise. Whether that will continue depends both on the regional and national economies and the city's relative trajectory. Someday there will be a recession and, as always, Michigan will suffer more than most areas, and we will have to see how badly the city finances are affected. Detroit also has a problem in that it is a low-income city with a relatively small tax base, and large legacy costs. But, at least at the moment, those problems are diminishing, not worsening, which is in contrast to the situation ten or twenty years ago.

[bragaboutme]

I live on the east side and from what I've seen as far as population in the neighborhood is sure growth. Homes that were once boarded up surely have people actually living there. I'm talking about the areas of Kelly going east boarded to the north by moross going all the way to the grosse pointe boarder. The neighborhoods that have been vacant are still vacant. There are stores that are income based like family Dollar, city trends, etc. Opening stores and alot of small investers such as myself that are buying or rehabbing houses and small buildings. On the westside the same is going on meaning the stong areas are getting shored up. I really have a feeling when the census arrives many people will be surprised and that's with my rose colored glasses off. There definitely are more people than in 2008.

[Colombian Dan]

I live on the east side and from what I've seen as far as population in the neighborhood is sure growth. Homes that were once boarded up surely have people actually living there. I'm talking about the areas of Kelly going east boarded to the north by moross going all the way to the grosse pointe boarder. The neighborhoods that have been vacant are still vacant. There are stores that are income based like family Dollar, city trends, etc. Opening stores and alot of small investers such as myself that are buying or rehabbing houses and small buildings. On the westside the same is going on meaning the stong areas are getting shored up. I really have a feeling when the census arrives many people will be surprised and that's with my rose colored glasses off. There definitely are more people than in 2008.

A quick look on Google maps shows massive abandonment throughout Detroit. For every 1 new person moving into Detroit 3 are leaving.. It's good to have a positive outlook but reality says different....

[Honky Tonk]

A quick look on Google maps shows massive abandonment throughout Detroit. For every 1 new person moving into Detroit 3 are leaving.. It's good to have a positive outlook but reality says different....

I'm not arguing with you Dan, but I don't understand everyone's obsession with this "density" thing. Personally, I like the elbow room and enjoy seeing the wildlife moving back into the City. I know people that have moved to the BF 'burbs and paid big money to have what we take for granted. You are right, though, I know people that have stuck it out through thick and thin, and now are taking advantage of the upswing to sell and get out.

[iheartthed]

A quick look on Google maps shows massive abandonment throughout Detroit. For every 1 new person moving into Detroit 3 are leaving.. It's good to have a positive outlook but reality says different....

You do realize that Google maps is not updated in real time, don't you?

[313WX]

I doubt a whole lot in Detroit has changed since Google added the recent maps from late 2017 / early 2018.

[313WX]

Do you have any suggestions on how Detroit can begin to attract and generate these high paying jobs. You bring up time and time and time and time and time and time and time again about Detroit's lack of economic vitality, but you offer no insight, from your Atlanta perch, how we might go about reversing the tide. For instance, is there something Atlanta is doing that we can do here?

Yet again, since you asked, this would *NEVER* happen here in Atlanta...

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...er/1270129002/

"The delay has caused frustration for the hotel's owners, Operadora de Servicio Para Hoteles de Lujo, said John Sabbagh, general manager for the hotel. Conversations began with the city planner in early 2017, and the project was formally presented to the city in December.

"The longer we're delayed, the more our project threatened," Sabbagh said. "Financing has already been obtained. Lenders will only hold out for so long. Our expectation is that we would have been close to breaking ground already. Due to all this going in circles, it is definitely jeopardizing or project."

Sabbagh noted the hotel owners have not asked for any tax incentives for the $164 million project that is expected to bring 250 permanent jobs."

[O3H]

FACT

Detroit revenue comes "primarily " from 3 places
income tax
revenue sharing from state
casino money

Yep, that's it, pretty much , and once the casino goes away....hmmmm

Reality is harsh, and doesn't smile much upon Detroit

[hybridy]

https://www.pbs.org/video/left-behind-america-tkmile/

[iheartthed]

I doubt a whole lot in Detroit has changed since Google added the recent maps from late 2017 / early 2018.

I doubt Google updated the entire city of Detroit within the last year. Images on Google can be several years old or several weeks old. It would be ridiculously expensive for them to update their entire map photo inventory every year.

So, having said that, it is not a good rebuttal to say that Google map images contradicts something someone says they saw with their own eyes.

[mwilbert]

FACT

Detroit revenue comes "primarily " from 3 places
income tax
revenue sharing from state
casino money

Yep, that's it, pretty much , and once the casino goes away....hmmmm

Reality is harsh, and doesn't smile much upon Detroit

This is not a fact. Unless something has changed in the immediate past, Detroit's largest single source of revenue is the property tax.

[313WX]

I doubt Google updated the entire city of Detroit within the last year. Images on Google can be several years old or several weeks old. It would be ridiculously expensive for them to update their entire map photo inventory every year.

So, having said that, it is not a good rebuttal to say that Google map images contradicts something someone says they saw with their own eyes.

The poster didn't say if they were referring to the street images in Google Maps. They simply said "Google Maps,"which to me means the main satellite view.

[O3H]

Detroit's largest single source of revenue is the property tax.

I would ask you you to PROVE it - the best you can - we'll be waiting patiently.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't get property tax from the HUGE amount of vacant land.
Many companies left, closed their doors, filed bankruptcy, they are gone.
Property tax revenue most surely does NOT support basic city services.

Detroit is not exactly wonderful, thriving, or growing in 2018
https://images.theconversation.com/f...mat&q=45&w=754

""~~~Downtown/Midtown covers only 5 percent of Detroit’s 140 square miles, and its population of 26,000 is a tiny fraction of the 3.6 million residents of the metro area,
80 percent of whom live in the suburbs. Improvements in Downtown/Midtown have been insufficient to offset continued citywide negative trends.
Less than half a mile from the GM Renaissance Center,
the most visible marker of Detroit’s downtown [[motto: “Reflecting a new Detroit”),
-- empty lots, weeds and dilapidated buildings prevail. ~~~~""

VIA :
Laura A. Reese is a professor of political science and director of the Global Urban Studies Program at Michigan State University.

Gary Sands is Professor Emeritus of Urban Studies and Planning at Wayne State University

Detroit revenue comes "primarily " from 3 places
income tax
revenue sharing from state
casino money

Detroit revenue by source in the city’s general fund and all other governmental funds.
https://i2.wp.com/crcmich.org/wp-con...ng?w=483&ssl=1

DETROIT - has massive financial problems, right now in 2018 !!!
https://crcmich.org/diversify-detroi...erty-tax-rate/

No amount of back slapping, jumping up, waving pom-poms
and screaming hurray, is going to turn this city around. It is dying.
Automotive is NOT getting it done for the D - period, end of story.

[bragaboutme]

I made the point from first person view and your counter point was from Google maps? I'm not a champion for Detroit like that, I'm just going by what I've seen the last couple of years. I know of the trend of management companies buying houses and renting them out at better price than East pointe and Roseville. That's in the area I mentioned. Even DPS enrollment was up a significant amount close to or 10,000 more students. No pie in the sky quick view of Google maps tells me what I'm actually seeing.

[Bham1982]

I made the point from first person view and your counter point was from Google maps?

Google maps is first person view, obviously.

But we don't need anecdotal observations, we know Detroit is still shrinking and emptying out per Census.

Even DPS enrollment was up a significant amount close to or 10,000 more students.

No, it wasn't. DPS absorbed the Education Achievement Authority [[state-run) school district, hence the one-year increase.

And school enrollment has little to do with population trends in a state where any kid can basically attend any school regardless of home address.

[mwilbert]

Google maps is first person view, obviously.

But we don't need anecdotal observations, we know Detroit is still shrinking and emptying out per Census.

We don't actually know that. The between-decades census counts aren't accurate enough to tell, and of course they are backward-looking. My best guess is that the population is roughly stable now. Of course, portions are still emptying out, and it is entirely possible that there is still a small net population loss, but it isn't something that is definitely the case.

[Bham1982]

We don't actually know that.

Of course we do. The Census reports population loss. Census numbers are the official numbers and there are no competing data sources.

Unless you want to call the Census and their army of PhDs "fakenews" there is no debate re. Detroit's continuing population loss.

[O3H]

Of course we do. there is no debate re. Detroit's continuing population loss.

Detroit levies property taxes at high rates
to compensate for the exodus of people
and businesses from the city,
which has eroded the property tax base,
creating a relatively low taxable value per capita.

This is real, now, today, late 2018

Detroit has a LACK of ability to attract capital.
It fails miserably, with corporations often
locating right outside the city border,
so that they can enjoy the central proximity,
without actually having to deal in Detroit.

Collectively, these four factors
taxes, regulations, poor services, and plain corruption
could be called “bad public administration.”
They are precisely what discourages
and in some cases directly - prohibit capital from entering Detroit.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbe.../#218d1c983fbe

[iheartthed]

Of course we do. The Census reports population loss. Census numbers are the official numbers and there are no competing data sources.

Unless you want to call the Census and their army of PhDs "fakenews" there is no debate re. Detroit's continuing population loss.

The census just reports numbers at a specific point in time. It is entirely possible [[and likely) that Detroit's population has stabilized. The census will not be able to corroborate that for decades.