DDOT / SMART look to streamline fare aystem

[DetroitSoldier]

This would be a first step at making bus transit work for the region. I fully support this effort.

http://www.detroitmi.gov/ddot

Edit: auto-correct failed me in the thread title. My apologies.

[dtowncitylover]

Day Passes! ONE REGIONAL CARD! My mouth is salivating like Homer Simpson.

I can't wait for 2050 when we get loadable fare cards that are contactless!

[Jason]

Does this mean that DDOT fares are being increased from $1.50 to $2.00? Or will the old single trip rides still be $1.50? Will this someday be the standard fare, and if you pay cash you'd get a 4 hour transfer ticket automatically?

If they do this correctly they'll have a lot more data about people's trips, which will help them plan their routes.

Day Passes! ONE REGIONAL CARD! My mouth is salivating like Homer Simpson.

I can't wait for 2050 when we get loadable fare cards that are contactless!

I agree but I think they've been trying to do this for at least a few years now and I think this is what they think they can actually do. In 2015 the People Mover did a study and found a full regional tap and go open payment fare system would cost $16-22 million.

It's hard to tell exactly what they're doing. This could be the full system everyone wants, but limited to smartphones because the hardware to support smart cards and credit cards would cost too much money. Or they could be trying to throw together their own custom system which would have more limited potential. Either way I feel like this is a huge improvement.


My fantasy though is to have universal tap and go/open payment that also includes the People Mover, Q-Line, AAATA, but ALSO municipal parking. So if you weren't a transit rider, but liked to visit Ferndale, you'd still have the transit card, which would lower the barrier to entry for using transit.

[Honky Tonk]

Does this mean that DDOT fares are being increased from $1.50 to $2.00? Or will the old single trip rides still be $1.50? Will this someday be the standard fare, and if you pay cash you'd get a 4 hour transfer ticket automatically?

If they do this correctly they'll have a lot more data about people's trips, which will help them plan their routes.



I agree but I think they've been trying to do this for at least a few years now and I think this is what they think they can actually do. In 2015 the People Mover did a study and found a full regional tap and go open payment fare system would cost $16-22 million.

It's hard to tell exactly what they're doing. This could be the full system everyone wants, but limited to smartphones because the hardware to support smart cards and credit cards would cost too much money. Or they could be trying to throw together their own custom system which would have more limited potential. Either way I feel like this is a huge improvement.


My fantasy though is to have universal tap and go/open payment that also includes the People Mover, Q-Line, AAATA, but ALSO municipal parking. So if you weren't a transit rider, but liked to visit Ferndale, you'd still have the transit card, which would lower the barrier to entry for using transit.

Or you could simply buy a vehicle, go wherever you like, whenever you like, run all your errands in one trip, get MI's economy going, and not burden taxpayers with more debt.

[xrockerboy]

About time!!

[Tig3rzhark]

I would have to agree, however...there needs to be a true improvement in customer service.

[DetroitSoldier]

I would have to agree, however...there needs to be a true improvement in customer service.

Is an overhaul of the fare system not a customer service related improvement?

[dtowncitylover]

Or you could simply buy a vehicle, go wherever you like, whenever you like, run all your errands in one trip, get MI's economy going, and not burden taxpayers with more debt.

LOL Nahhhhh. Cars are overrated.

[Honky Tonk]

LOL Nahhhhh. Cars are overrated.

Can't figure out how to drive, can you?

[dtowncitylover]

Can't figure out how to drive, can you?

No, I don't really care to. I don't really care for my commute and the time I've wasted alone because of my unique commute. I don't really care that my car depreciates in value every time I drive it. I don't really care for our high insurance rates. Or the monthly car payment. Or the yearly tabs payment and inevitable insurance hikes. I don't really care for the $150 yearly I spend on oil changes. Or the probably $3,000-5000 extra I will spend over its life for other maintenance. And I don't care for any future emotional toll that may happen should I get into a nasty accident because that's how life goes sometimes.

But please, tell me more how cars are "independence".

I'd rather be at the whim of the elements outside and maybe a bus or train is running late because that's temporary and I'll know that I'm not in a car, which is a ball and chain to one's life.

And for the amount of bad [[nevermind uninsured) drivers on the road, one would think a decent, connected mass transit system would be a welcome relief to those who think they're "good drivers".

So I welcome and applaud DDOT and SMART, with what little they have, in trying to make it easier for us car owners and for everyone to use their systems.

[Honky Tonk]

No, I don't really care to. I don't really care for my commute and the time I've wasted alone because of my unique commute. I don't really care that my car depreciates in value every time I drive it. I don't really care for our high insurance rates. Or the monthly car payment. Or the yearly tabs payment and inevitable insurance hikes. I don't really care for the $150 yearly I spend on oil changes. Or the probably $3,000-5000 extra I will spend over its life for other maintenance. And I don't care for any future emotional toll that may happen should I get into a nasty accident because that's how life goes sometimes.

But please, tell me more how cars are "independence".

I'd rather be at the whim of the elements outside and maybe a bus or train is running late because that's temporary and I'll know that I'm not in a car, which is a ball and chain to one's life.

And for the amount of bad [[nevermind uninsured) drivers on the road, one would think a decent, connected mass transit system would be a welcome relief to those who think they're "good drivers".

So I welcome and applaud DDOT and SMART, with what little they have, in trying to make it easier for us car owners and for everyone to use their systems.

What DDOT, SMART, FAST, and NOT-SO-FAST need to do is adjust their rates accordingly, let say $10-$12 dollars a trip for riders, to match today's inflation. This would eliminate the tax burden placed auto owners, property owners, and other tax payers, then take the money now used to subsidize these money losing propositions, and use it to maintain roads and other necessary infrastructure. There's no such thing as a free ride.

[dtowncitylover]

use it to maintain roads and other necessary infrastructure. There's no such thing as a free ride.

That is other necessary infrastructure. I cannot believe how ignorant you are on transportation. Then again, you could be trolling.

There is no such thing as a free ride. Not on roads, buses, planes, or trains. And...? Can we toll every road from the end of your driveway to your work so I don't have to pay for them?

Also FAST is a SMART service, not a separate agency.

Also, I'm not quite sure what inflation you're talking about. I don't know what DDOT fares were 50 years ago but let's they were .25 per ride, which sounds about right. That's 1.85 today and when DDOT [[SMART is already at $2) raises their fare to $2 they'll be over par on inflation so they're doing things just fine. In fact, most cities are already seeing $2+ for bus rides. And even if the .25$ is low, fares back then would've had to have been $1.50-2 [[which they weren't) in order for your idea to work to "keep up with inflation".

We're all tax payers. There's nothing special about homeowners. If you live in an apartment or house, we all pay.

DDOT isn't even funded directly by property owners, it's budget comes from the city's budget as opposed to some special tax like SMART.

Public transit, just like most public services, doesn't have to pay for itself. 99% of public transit systems don't pay for themselves.

[masterblaster]

What DDOT, SMART, FAST, and NOT-SO-FAST need to do is adjust their rates accordingly, let say $10-$12 dollars a trip for riders, to match today's inflation. This would eliminate the tax burden placed auto owners, property owners, and other tax payers, then take the money now used to subsidize these money losing propositions, and use it to maintain roads and other necessary infrastructure. There's no such thing as a free ride.

Should this rationale be applied to libraries. Do libraries pay for themselves? Do Parks pay for themselves? Should we charge $10 admission for every time we go to Rouge Park or Palmer Park or Belle Isle so that people pay the full cost of operation and maintenance? Should this rationale be applied to public schools? Do public schools pay for themselves?

So, you don't live in Detroit, but I, who happen to have lived in Detroit for 57 years, and cover just about every section of the City @ least twice a week, am anacedotal, because you think I "saw a bus last week with 3 people on it"? Yet I'm supposed to buy into your public transportation emotionally charged logic, and cough up more tax money because you don't want to be alone? Try car pooling, call Uber or Lyft, see what they charge. This way I can have my car and don't have to susidize your transportation, and you can have a direct ride to and from wherever it is you're going. Don't be a burden on others. Learn to take care of yourself.

Maybe people shouldn't subsidize other peoples' education as well. If you want your child to have an education, pay the full out-of-pocket costs of a private school education.

I was in Westland early this morning and I took the SMART Bus 255 Ford Road express to downtown. It was packed. Last week, I took a Warren Ave [[Crosstown Bus) at 6 am in the morning. 10 minutes into my trip, the bus was packed. These are working class people trying to get to work. To make these people pay $10-12 for bus fare or to try to make them figure out how to car pool using an UBER when they are going to different places of work at different locations, is objectionable.

There are some people who believe public transit is an essential service to be provided by a city, like police, trash collection, parks, etc. And there are some who don't think it should be service to be provided. I guess you fall in the latter category. It seems like living out in the country, where your neighbors would be the likes of Meddle, is something you should seriously consider.

[Meddle]

But please, tell me more how cars are "independence".

I remember waking up early one Saturday morning wondering what to do for the day. Spur of the moment, I hopped in the car and headed west. Ended up in Grand Haven, a place I'd never been. Wandered around the docks on the shore of Lake Michigan visiting a few of the craft shops. Bought a few things including a painting. Loaded them back in the car and headed north. I don't remember now exactly where else I went, but I was back home late Sunday afternoon.

How ya' gonna do that when you rely on government busses, eh?

[dtowncitylover]

I remember waking up early one Saturday morning wondering what to do for the day. Spur of the moment, I hopped in the car and headed west. Ended up in Grand Haven, a place I'd never been. Wandered around the docks on the shore of Lake Michigan visiting a few of the craft shops. Bought a few things including a painting. Loaded them back in the car and headed north. I don't remember now exactly where else I went, but I was back home late Sunday afternoon.

How ya' gonna do that when you rely on government busses, eh?

Good for you. I don't care about your anecdotal story about being spontaneous with a car. I could just as easily rent one. It adds nothing to this debate. I could've just as easily taken the bus to Belle Isle. In fact one of my favorite comments I saw on line was "I love road trips, I just hate commuting."

[Bigdd]

No, I don't really care to. I don't really care for my commute and the time I've wasted alone because of my unique commute.

It all comes down to time lost. It's the one thing we don't get more of, and can't get back.

What's your time worth? If you're daily commute by bus is 3 hours [[instead of one hour by car),.. then that's 260 days x 2 hours,... or 520 hours wasted a year.

If your time is worth $20 an hour,.. the wasted time costs you $10,400 a year. If it's $60 an hour,.. it's $31k a year lost.

And why car payments? For decades I drove $3,000 used Volvos and such. Just save a few bucks and buy a car outright. Then you can really be productive.

[Meddle]

^^ I could also hop in my car at whatever times I wanted to beat traffic and run down to the US Courthouse for my day. Sometimes I was there not long after 6AM. Other times it was later.

Then if I wanted to take off after work and go to Fairlane or wherever else, I could without having to wait for a bus to go home, then get my car and go shopping. Or if I wanted to take off early for some reason, I could do that without having to wait for a bus.

[dtowncitylover]

^^ I could also hop in my car at whatever times I wanted to beat traffic and run down to the US Courthouse for my day. Sometimes I was there not long after 6AM. Other times it was later.

Then if I wanted to take off after work and go to Fairlane or wherever else, I could without having to wait for a bus to go home, then get my car and go shopping. Or if I wanted to take off early for some reason, I could do that without having to wait for a bus.

Yes, and when you live in a real city you can mostly do all of this by walking or taking public transit.

[professorscott]

Yes, and when you live in a real city you can mostly do all of this by walking or taking public transit.

Yes, it's very lovely that all of these people [[1) have a car, [[2) have a license, [[3) are physically able to drive and so forth, and can get by wonderfully without any other means. Hoback and I studied, years ago, that people whose trips include public transit are healthier; we didn't drag out the "why" of it [[unlike these correpondents, we are driven by data and not anecdotes) but it occurred to use one hugely likely reason is that people who take buses and trains, by the very nature of their trips, end up walking a good bit more than people who are able to, and choose to, drive their cars all over the place.

It is wonderful that DDOT and SMART have both made significant service improvements and that they are working toward an easier-to-use joint-fare system. As for the others, illegitimatus non carborundum [[faux Latin for "don't let the bastards grind you down").

[Meddle]

Hoback and I studied, years ago, that people whose trips include public transit are healthier; we didn't drag out the "why" of it [[unlike these correpondents, we are driven by data and not anecdotes) but it occurred to use one hugely likely reason is that people who take buses and trains, by the very nature of their trips, end up walking a good bit more ...

I walk plenty now. I walked plenty then, in part by parking away from the doors at mall and stores, then walking through the mall/store and back, as well as walk mowing my lawn weekly. Something downtown dwellers know nothing of --- grass ... green stuff that usually smells good.

And I wasn't sitting in an enclosed tube with dozens of people who had who knows what in the way of illnesses.

[professorscott]

I walk plenty now. I walked plenty then, in part by parking away from the doors at mall and stores, then walking through the mall/store and back... And I wasn't sitting in an enclosed tube with dozens of people who had who knows what in the way of illnesses.

You understand that the corridor of a mall is an enclosed tube with hundreds of people who have who knows what in the way of illnesses, right?

Also, I applaud your parking behavior, but yours is not typical. I can't count how many times I've seen people driving around shopping center lots in circles so that they can find the closest possible parking spot, many choosing to park illegally. This is especially ironic when they are going to the gym to work out. Meanwhile, those of us like Jjaba [[back in the day) and myself, the Dexter bus drops us off wherever it happens to drop us off, and from there we walk to wherever we're trying to get to, and it comes pretty frequently and is very convenient, and I do not recall one time, in all those decades, contracting an illness that was likely attributable to a fellow passenger.

[Towne Cluber]

Yes, it's very lovely that all of these people [[1) have a car, [[2) have a license, [[3) are physically able to drive and so forth, and can get by wonderfully without any other means. Hoback and I studied, years ago, that people whose trips include public transit are healthier; we didn't drag out the "why" of it [[unlike these correpondents, we are driven by data and not anecdotes) but it occurred to use one hugely likely reason is that people who take buses and trains, by the very nature of their trips, end up walking a good bit more than people who are able to, and choose to, drive their cars all over the place.

When was this study and was it local or national?

[professorscott]

When was this study and was it local or national?

I was afraid someone would ask me to remember such details

The study was quite a few years ago, maybe 2005 or 2006. We focused on the city of Detroit specifically, and how far someone walks when they ride the buses. I seem to recall we did have access to some national-level data, but mostly it was a study of the local phenomenon.

[Danny]

Good for them. Taking several busses crosstown and back from work or other errands, cost a lot. Just regionalize SMART and D-DOT and smooth sailing and rapid.

[Hamtragedy]

I used to get wasted and drive. Especially the backroads thru Milwaukee junction. Thank god we have uber now. It would have been nice years ago to not have to do that, but a bus from the cass corridor to hamtramck didn't exist, and would take well over two hours. Hell it was faster to walk. But drinkin and drivin was so much fun.

Then there were the days taking the Grand River bus to the Greenfield to the Dexter to get to high school. An hour and fifteen minutes to go six friggin miles. I would have taken a car but I was only 14 and 15. But man when I got my licensce.....

Why didn't I walk or ride my bike in either case, one might ask? Usually there were jacked up neighborhoods between here and there. Oh, I rode my bike a couple thousand miles growing up [[I had a speedometer to track it), and was told more than a few times to "check it in." I could out-peddle thugs and packs of wild dogs, with 60 lbs of newspapers. And I walked an average of a thousand miles a year to the bus, to school and on the paper route. 6'2" and 135 lbs wet. Biggest frustration of all? The damn freight.

It wasn't till I went to real functioning cities that had mass transit where I no longer had to drink and drive, walk thru shitty neighborhoods, but I could buy and single ticket and ride a bus that took me to a subway with all likes of people, black, white, latino, old, young, girls [[chicks on the bus whuuut?), and got to the other side of town way faster than driving thru 2 thousand stop signs. Plus, transit is the great equalizer: when it rains everybody looks like a wet dog.

But now I'm more mature and drive my car to get groceries 8 blocks away, or to a friends house less than a mile away, or to a bar three miles away. I pay 3K/yr insurance with a clean record for a ten year old vehicle that lets me sit in traffic and huff fumes, while I watch the empty freight go by, wondering why those 4 pathetic bastards aren't sitting in traffic like me.