Shoo! that is close.. The SMART Bus Millage results

[Danny]

From the 2018 SMART Bus Millage....
Seventy-seven percent of Oakland County voted YES.
Seventy-Two percent of Wayne County voted YES.
However a close call for the residents of Macomb County voted YES by a few votes. a 50/50 margin.

What's going on? The people of Macomb County is a regional division between South Macomb with their Detroit-esque bedroom neighborhoods and North Macomb with the super developed McMansions past 20 Mile Rd. M-59 [[as known as the new E. 8 Mile Rd.) Folks from all over Macomb County cities have to pay a few dollars and cents for regional services. Even through those cities do get regional services like SMART bus system.

I was wonder what will happen if the 2021 SMART bus Millage didn't pass in Macomb? It will be a regional disaster!!! [[a one county economic depression.

Your thoughts?

[Scottathew]

We need to expand transit, fund it more, and bring SMART, DDOT, M1-Rail, and the People Mover all under the control of a single regional authority.

Also, they need to only charge the millage to the communities that get service, otherwise it will be an uphill battle for a regional authority as rural parts of Oakland and Macomb rightfully balk at the proposal. Also, within the urban and suburban communities there should be NO OPT-OUTS.

[ABetterDetroit]

We need to expand transit, fund it more, and bring SMART, DDOT, M1-Rail, and the People Mover all under the control of a single regional authority.

Also, they need to only charge the millage to the communities that get service, otherwise it will be an uphill battle for a regional authority as rural parts of Oakland and Macomb rightfully balk at the proposal. Also, within the urban and suburban communities there should be NO OPT-OUTS.

Or we could stop pretending it’s still the 1950s around here and Quit trying to jam Mass Transit down the throat of employers and homeowners in a fucked up real estate use/market with failure after failure and just institute a sales tax to fund it just like every other successful large metropolitan area transit plan in the rest of America.

Of course the downside to that idea is people might go for it and we could actually have it then all the bitching and complaining wouldn’t have their favorite communities to blame for not having it.

Nevermind. Just hang it on the property tax and sprawl on faster and farther Metro Detroit out over the ridiculous tax lines drawn on a map.
Surly another caring President will come along sooner or later and feel bad for what we have done to ourselves and give us more money again to tear down even more houses after we are done throwing another hundred thousand of our citizens out of their homes for unpaid taxes. Maybe that future President will replenish our bankrupt cities too!

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Or we could stop pretending it’s still the 1950s around here and Quit trying to jam Mass Transit down the throat of employers and homeowners in a fucked up real estate use/market with failure after failure and just institute a sales tax to fund it just like every other successful large metropolitan area transit plan in the rest of America.

Of course the downside to that idea is people might go for it and we could actually have it then all the bitching and complaining wouldn’t have their favorite communities to blame for not having it.

Nevermind. Just hang it on the property tax and sprawl on faster and farther Metro Detroit out over the ridiculous tax lines drawn on a map.
Surly another caring President will come along sooner or later and feel bad for what we have done to ourselves and give us more money again to tear down even more houses after we are done throwing another hundred thousand of our citizens out of their homes for unpaid taxes. Maybe that future President will replenish our bankrupt cities too!

I wouldn't count on it, especially your last sentence.....

[bust]

There are lots of ways.

In case anyone is interested here are the variety of ways New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority accumulates its $15.3 Billion budget:

http://interactive.nydailynews.com/project/mta-funding/

[Danny]

With Gilberttown Detroit developing. The Suburbs will have ride along, too. Look as Royal Oak, its no longer a "Royal Joke!" their downtown will look like mini Seattle and no parking spaces and open lots in site.

Ride along Macomb County don't get stuck by keeping up the Jones or the living like the Cleaver family from old tv sit-com
"Leave it to Beaver".

It's a pity that folks in Macomb County have to rely on the old "Christmas Lighting-direct current" urban district agreements. It's by the majority of the city will either keep or opt out certain services. So like City of Warren wants to opt out SMART busses in their streets, they can not because the all the cities and townships in Macomb County voted to keep the SMART busses going.

Folks on all tri-county areas had to vote on the SMART Bus Millage every four years. For its the final life line for state, county, city and federal funding. They don't just make money by putting your $2.00 of your bus fare into the fare box. They get money other source to cover fuel, maintenance and hopefully new busses. Without this millage, let regional transit die! along with thousands of its thousands of jobs. It's a scare tactic, but people must vote for leadership and services or forget it.

This is a democracy. Or you all rather want dictatorship.

[JonWylie]

What really needs to happen is we need to support which ever state candidates that will run on the platform of changing the Michigan Constitution to allow cities to enact higher sales tax. A 1-2% sales tax would allow Detroit to fund public transit the same as many cities around the country while affectively capturing money from visitors.

[Bham1982]

What really needs to happen is we need to support which ever state candidates that will run on the platform of changing the Michigan Constitution to allow cities to enact higher sales tax. A 1-2% sales tax would allow Detroit to fund public transit the same as many cities around the country while affectively capturing money from visitors.

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes, and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

[dtowncitylover]

and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

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Top 3:
-Education
-Crime
-Transit

[Bham1982]

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Top 3:
-Education
-Crime
-Transit

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

[dtowncitylover]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

"Their kids and grandkids future" is so vague it matters little.

I would love to hear someone from Canton or Birmingham or Rochester or Clinton Township talk about how "bad" their air quality is. That might be a concern for someone at 94 and E. Grand Blvd, but just like you said, it's localized.

I would say most of the region has transit on their mind now. Whether they approve or disapprove of it. The issue is a major concern as it ties in with taxes, clean air, and whether or not we want to continue a brain drain, i.e. "the kids and grandkids future".

And sorry, because DPS is the largest public school system in the region, I would guess everyone wants to see it succeed. We know whatever Detroit is going through, matters greatly to the rest of the region. So that means educating future Detroiters, making sure the city is a safe place to live, work, and play, and investing in mobility so we can have more choices in transportation.

It would seem with the Macomb vote, many give "two shits" about buses.

[mwilbert]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

They mostly don't have good schools. There are a few very good public high schools, and then the quality falls off a cliff. Most of the school systems in metro Detroit are at best mediocre, although I'm not sure the parents realize it, so I might agree with you that it isn't a top issue. I also don't agree with you about transit; I agree that the majority of people in the area don't care about it, but there is a substantial minority who do, and it's a huge problem for the people for whom its a problem.

[masterblaster]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

You're reaching - clean air; the grandkids?

Safety is ALWAYS the number 1 issue for just about everybody

Education is always a priority because people want to ensure their children have a bright future.

You are right about taxes.

I would think ROADS and POLLUTED WATERWAYS of the Clinton River and Lake St. Clair would be something they would care about.

[dtowncitylover]

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes

And no, this is what I see often on Freep comments or among family and friends. They don't want property but can deal with sales because then EVERYONE will be paying and they understand we have a low sales tax. .5% sales tax for the quad-counties? Yes please! [[Even though most everyone pays property taxes via home ownership or rent costs but the claim we pay too much property tax is a real complaint).

[JonWylie]

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes, and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

I would love to see that list

[dtowncitylover]

This ain't over...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ace/937142002/

Seeing on Facebook the Yes "campagin" and TRU all calling victory and really downplaying the Macomb vote was quite astonishing. Sorry, but no. This is quite serious and it's ridiculous some NIMBY/Frank Rizzo named Leon Drolet had this much power to spread misinformation and lies about the needs of SMART. The guy doesn't like taxes. After SMART, he'll move onto some other government agency and try and dismantle that.

I completely blame Hackel for this one. He "supports" SMART, but did nothing to counter anything Drolet said. He is not vocal about it. He shrugged his shoulders, said vote yes, and moved on. When he should've been on TV, alongside Megan Owens, and making sure Macomb voters knew what that question meant. Way to go Hack!

What we do need is a sales tax and it would be nice for the legislature, if possible, to pass a bill to allow for sales taxes for transportation authorities. If it needs to be a vote of the people, not sure how that can happen. I would imagine the entire state needs to vote for any changes to the state constitution so how can we guarantee it passing both here and outstate? Then the only caveat would be that the sales tax can only be used to pay for regional transportation systems.

[Danny]

This ain't over...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ace/937142002/

Seeing on Facebook the Yes "campagin" and TRU all calling victory and really downplaying the Macomb vote was quite astonishing. Sorry, but no. This is quite serious and it's ridiculous some NIMBY/Frank Rizzo named Leon Drolet had this much power to spread misinformation and lies about the needs of SMART. The guy doesn't like taxes. After SMART, he'll move onto some other government agency and try and dismantle that.

I completely blame Hackel for this one. He "supports" SMART, but did nothing to counter anything Drolet said. He is not vocal about it. He shrugged his shoulders, said vote yes, and moved on. When he should've been on TV, alongside Megan Owens, and making sure Macomb voters knew what that question meant. Way to go Hack!

What we do need is a sales tax and it would be nice for the legislature, if possible, to pass a bill to allow for sales taxes for transportation authorities. If it needs to be a vote of the people, not sure how that can happen. I would imagine the entire state needs to vote for any changes to the state constitution so how can we guarantee it passing both here and outstate? Then the only caveat would be that the sales tax can only be used to pay for regional transportation systems.

How about this for scare tactic. If Macomb County didn't pass the SMART bus millage, most regional businesses from automation factories to retail stores could leave!

Watch out. It happen in Livonia after 2007 SMART bus opt out. Fewer factories left including Gilbert's Quicken Loans annex buildings to Downtown Detroit. But that's democracy.

[eastland]

Ever since the last RTA vote, Hackel said all along that trying to push the RTA through in 2018 would jeopardize the SMART millage renewal. He was dead on. SMART won comfortably in the southern communities like St. Clair Shores, Roseville, Eastpointe, Fraser. The reason why Macomb's vote was so close is because Oakland and Wayne have opt-out communities who would have soundly rejected the SMART millage if they had an opportunity to vote.

[Jason]

Ever since the last RTA vote, Hackel said all along that trying to push the RTA through in 2018 would jeopardize the SMART millage renewal. He was dead on. SMART won comfortably in the southern communities like St. Clair Shores, Roseville, Eastpointe, Fraser. The reason why Macomb's vote was so close is because Oakland and Wayne have opt-out communities who would have soundly rejected the SMART millage if they had an opportunity to vote.

On one hand, after the vote I realized what Hackel was saying was true.

But on the other hand, I think the reason the vote was so close was because through his opposition to the RTA, he's been campaigning against transit. For most people in Macomb County, transit is a new subject that they don't usually think much about and that they don't necessarily have strong feelings about. If people hadn't been hearing that transit was bad for Macomb County from its leaders, I think it would have been closer to the ~60% that it normally gets.

[professorscott]

However a close call for the residents of Macomb County voted YES by a few votes. a 50/50 marjin.

What's going on?

In Oakland and Wayne Counties, the exurban communities that have opted out of SMART didn't get to vote on the proposal, so the only voters were in communities where SMART service is visible. By contrast, the growing communities in north Macomb had the opportunity to vote, and many of them never see a bus.

If I was advising SMART, I would say before the next time up you have to have much more visibility in north Macomb. The service they provide in Armada and Richmond is simply invisible to nearly everybody, so you won't get a lot of support from those communities.

Some systems run once-weekly service to remote parts of a region. Perhaps SMART could divide north Macomb into segments, and run shuttles once a week in each segment [[say, once per hour) to connect people to the main routes like those on Van Dyke and Gratiot. Obviously those would not serve commuters, but if you think about retired people who might be able to arrange to do their shopping and medical trips on a, let's say, Tuesday, it might provide a service for them.

More importantly, people in the northern communities would see a bus go by every now and then.

[Jason]

I agree that this isn't a victory at all, this is extremely alarming. We just got within around 20 votes of our transit system being crippled.

Obviously Macomb County itself wouldn't be served, but that would have cascading effects across the entire system, because so much of the ridership is crosstown between Macomb and Oakland County. I think right now places like Bloomfield opt in for the common good and civicmindedness, but would they feel the same towards a hollow facade version of SMART?

The Grosse Pointes routes would be reduced to an isolated circulator that would barely go anywhere. Why wouldn't they then opt out? What fills that funding gap? The rest of Wayne County would seemingly be unaffected but honestly they don't have super great service to begin with.

Overall SMART would be reduced to Woodward and a few circulators and feeders in Oakland County, and a few routes in Wayne County. The best case scenario is that the recount confirms the millage. And if that happens SMART needs to spend the next 4 years in emergency mode, figuring out how to make sure this doesn't happen again.


Then there's the economy of Macomb County. Thousands of people who depend on the bus to get to work would instantly lose their jobs. At the same time, all of the businesses that employed these people would all, at the same time, have to hire replacements. Then there are multiple smaller groups that it would affect, students that would need to drop out of school, seniors and the disabled who need the bus to get anywhere, one car households who use the bus to responsibly save money. It would be a shock to Macomb County to lose the buses, and once it adjusted to the shock, it would be worse off. All of this to save 1 mill worth of property taxes.


I think it's more clear than ever that the places that do want transit need to step up and pay for it themselves, in order to create a system that places like Macomb County would see value in and want to be a part of.

Some systems run once-weekly service to remote parts of a region. Perhaps SMART could divide north Macomb into segments, and run shuttles once a week in each segment [[say, once per hour) to connect people to the main routes like those on Van Dyke and Gratiot. Obviously those would not serve commuters, but if you think about retired people who might be able to arrange to do their shopping and medical trips on a, let's say, Tuesday, it might provide a service for them.

More importantly, people in the northern communities would see a bus go by every now and then.

SMART already has something like this. If you live more than 1/3rd of a mile from a fixed bus route [[or if you're a senior or disabled), you can schedule a shuttle to pick you up at your house and take you to your destination during the weekdays. It's obviously cumbersome but it's available. https://www.smartbus.org/Services/Connector

[EGrant]

In theory, homeowners pass down the property tax to renters via the rent.

[ABetterDetroit]

There are lots of ways.

In case anyone is interested here are the variety of ways New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority accumulates its $15.3 Billion budget:

http://interactive.nydailynews.com/project/mta-funding/

Thank you for the clarification that their are many tax vehicles implemented for public transport funding. I stand guilty of over simplifying the issue in frustration with the mentality that the only way we can ever get the ball rolling on this issue is by raising the necessary funds through a single tax vehicle that has historically been detrimental to Detroit and it’s citizens.

[3WC]

More taxes for Detroit. Yeah, that's a plan.

I have no confidence in anything civic "leaders" say anymore whether they're elected or private.

The Q-line is about the dumbest so-called public works debacle I've seen or heard about - and I've been around a very long time, and have owned and operated several successful businesses.

It's true that the Q-line was built by the private sector [[two guys) with government support, but in 10 years it and its significant financial burdens revert to public ownership as I understand it. Can't wait. If it lasts that long I hope the city sells the cars and tears up the tracks.

The developers could have saved millions, not only in money, but in the value of time lost and inconvenience while building the damn thing and tearing up downtown to do it, by buying 4 luxury busses and running them on that loop. Faster, far less expensive, and more comfortable than those Q-line cars [[I'm told, because I've never ridden it although I've heard the horror stories from those that have.)

[JonWylie]

The Q-line is about the dumbest so-called public works debacle I've seen or heard about....I'm told, because I've never ridden it although I've heard the horror stories from those that have.)

You should maybe ride it once before you proclaim it as the dumbest ever