Shoo! that is close.. The SMART Bus Millage results

[dtowncitylover]

https://youtu.be/29Mg6Gfh9Co?t=24

LOL ok dude, apparently critiquing car culture is now akin to Hitler. Got it.

[Meddle]

Because Detroit is my hometown.

Cities are for people, not cars. Period.

Mine too.

Why do you think all the street car rails got paved over? After the 50s began and people started to have their own cars, they found they preferred the freedom to go where they wanted, when at will, not just where the tracks went.

Why do you think the Davison, Southfield, Lodge, Ford, Chrysler and Jeffries were built? Certainly not for street cars or busses. And not for city dwellers to visit shopping centers either. For the workers downtown to commute to their homes within the city on the far east, north, west and south sides.

NYC may not be for cars, but Detroit certainly is.

[Meddle]

Not sure how old any of you are, but during the heydays of the 50s and 60s, it was all about cars. New homes were being built in those outskirts mentioned above, places closer to Telegraph and Morross than the Boulevard. People were moving from the large older homes and apartments to single family homes with yards and places for gardens and kids to play. They still wanted to be in the city, but not close to the then crowded downtown ring. BUT, they wanted easy transportation and that meant their own cars, not busses or street cars. It would not have been feasible to run rails out Grand River to Telegraph or Gratiot to Morross because no one would have used them.

My parents moved from neighborhoods like Lafayette and Lawndale to Greenfield and Fenkell and that was really moving up in the world back then. Without the availability of two family cars [[up to five when we kids got our own), that would have been far less likely.

[Honky Tonk]

My parents moved from neighborhoods like Lafayette and Lawndale

Curious, where did you go to school?

[Meddle]

Long after they moved from there ... Stratford and Cerveny.

[Honky Tonk]

Long after they moved from there ... Stratford and Cerveny.

Ok, thought maybe one from that end of town.

[dtowncitylover]

NYC may not be for cars, but Detroit certainly is.

Says who? Why does this have to be?

[dtowncitylover]

Why do you think all the street car rails got paved over? After the 50s began and people started to have their own cars, they found they preferred the freedom to go where they wanted, when at will, not just where the tracks went.

Also this isn't true. The residents didn't favor ending streetcar service. City officials did. Big difference.

[dtowncitylover]

Not sure how old any of you are, but during the heydays of the 50s and 60s, it was all about cars. New homes were being built in those outskirts mentioned above, places closer to Telegraph and Morross than the Boulevard. People were moving from the large older homes and apartments to single family homes with yards and places for gardens and kids to play. They still wanted to be in the city, but not close to the then crowded downtown ring. BUT, they wanted easy transportation and that meant their own cars, not busses or street cars. It would not have been feasible to run rails out Grand River to Telegraph or Gratiot to Morross because no one would have used them.

My parents moved from neighborhoods like Lafayette and Lawndale to Greenfield and Fenkell and that was really moving up in the world back then. Without the availability of two family cars [[up to five when we kids got our own), that would have been far less likely.

Again, none of this had to be. How about subway lines?

It's amazing how brainwashed you are to the almighty car. Henry is certainly proud.

[professorscott]

Exactly what are you a "professor" of, Scott? Certainly not Blight Rail planning.

It's changed over the years. Currently mathematics. However, I have done professional transit planning including LRT.

[Honky Tonk]

Unless you want to open a restaurant in Corktown,then seig hiel applies?

Maybe the way to go would be match dollar for dollar rail and roads.

It is kinda hard to force a taxpayer to pay for transit on roads and then tell them this is what you get,be happy with what we provide for you.

Gee I wish I could make some sense out of your post. How are things in Florida? Any cool hurricanes coming up? Did Florida ever get their mass transit system going? Aside from rafts with people washing up on the beaches I mean.

[Honky Tonk]

Memories of your youth?

No, a vacation in Disneyworld.

[Bham1982]

Says who? Why does this have to be?

Says the market. Detroit is a town of single family homes, which are incompatible with heavy rail service. Condos have always been a tough sell.

[eastland]

Ever since the last RTA vote, Hackel said all along that trying to push the RTA through in 2018 would jeopardize the SMART millage renewal. He was dead on. SMART won comfortably in the southern communities like St. Clair Shores, Roseville, Eastpointe, Fraser. The reason why Macomb's vote was so close is because Oakland and Wayne have opt-out communities who would have soundly rejected the SMART millage if they had an opportunity to vote.

[Meddle]

I kind of wish somebody would put a nail in the transit coffin once and for all. Those days are past. Focus the efforts towards an on-call type of service for the elderly, disabled, economically disadvantaged, etc. Make it available to those without cars too, but maybe at a higher fare rate.

Use vans or small busses instead of full sized coaches and permanent rail lines. But leave a number full sized coach routes along the major and secondary arteries in the city.

The Burbs don't need to be forced into it at gunpoint. There's a reason people moved out of town and they don't need to be dictated to by the city and sympathizers.

[Richard]

Gee I wish I could make some sense out of your post. How are things in Florida? Any cool hurricanes coming up? Did Florida ever get their mass transit system going? Aside from rafts with people washing up on the beaches I mean.

The rafts are now diverted to Canada now,so not to many washing up lately.

Actually Orlando has expanded thier rail system,I went to thier new line expansion open house last month so I could get my free coffee mug.

The transit cars are actually full sized and nothing like a street car from the past,each one holds probably 25 people with booths or individual seats,actually really nice with tables and wifi.

Our Tampa street car is more geared towards the historic aspect but they are adding more lines to that one also.

http://sunrail.com/

They are useing uber discounts to cover the last mile issue,now my friend flys in from the U.K. and useing his rental car 50% less.

High speed rail from Tampa to Orlando then to Daytona Beach
east to west then from Jacksonville to Miami is useing the medium on the freeway and has completed the engineering studies,set the routes and is moving forward despite the governors rejecting the previous administrations offer of financial support.

Rightly so,because it shows that you can still move forward.

So it will cost me from Tampa to Orlando,53 miles which can take up to 3 hours,$21 and be there in 30 minutes.

I can leave my car in Tampa and do everything I need to do in Orlando and even spend a day in Daytona at the races or with the bikers and then go home at night.

That would be one less car stuck in traffic behind a moron driving 40 mph in the fast lane while texting.

Its about providing options for everybody weather we agree with them or not,a dictatorship or your buddy would say,your only option would be to take the highway.

But even he wanted to put a bug in everybody's garage.

But you do notice that pretty much every other city embraces public transit options for everybody and is expanding thier routes.

[Richard]

I kind of wish somebody would put a nail in the transit coffin once and for all. Those days are past. Focus the efforts towards an on-call type of service for the elderly, disabled, economically disadvantaged, etc. Make it available to those without cars too, but maybe at a higher fare rate.

Use vans or small busses instead of full sized coaches and permanent rail lines. But leave a number full sized coach routes along the major and secondary arteries in the city.

The Burbs don't need to be forced into it at gunpoint. There's a reason people moved out of town and they don't need to be dictated to by the city and sympathizers.

I wonder if one lives in the burbs and works in the city,what would the time,fuel,wear and tear on the vehicle,parking issues or expense savings be?

Even back in the day people lived in the burbs and transited to the city for work and is actually quite a common practice in other parts of the country.

[dtowncitylover]

Says the market. Detroit is a town of single family homes, which are incompatible with heavy rail service. Condos have always been a tough sell.

Fuck the market. I don't give a rats ass about "the market". We know what the market does to towns like Detroit. Again, nothing says Detroit ever needed to be a low density wasteland. The market fucked us again.

[bust]

It wasn't some Adam Smithian ideal free market that gave us sprawling suburbs, it was a variety of government programs that skewed the market in favor of new single family home construction in successive concentric rings and depleted the urban core.

Financing Suburbia: How government mortgage policy determined where you live
https://marketurbanism.com/2017/09/1...here-you-live/

It still happens:

How the Federal Government Dramatically Skews the U.S. Real Estate Market
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2013/...e-market/4337/

"The market is f᎑¢ked" is a better way to say it.

[bust]

I kind of wish somebody would put a nail in the transit coffin once and for all. Those days are past.

I'm sorry to put it this way, but the nails in the coffins of the free parking generation opposed to transit will come first. That's what's past, or will soon pass.

Cars will of course be needed in rural and other sparsely populated areas but if urban planners have learned anything the past 60 years its that healthy cities do not prioritize cars.

Car free cities: Pathway to healthy urban living.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27276440

How do you build a healthy city? Copenhagen reveals its secrets
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...rets-happiness

The Lancet Series on Urban Design, Transport and Health: cities planned for humans rather than cars
https://blogs.bmj.com/injury-prevent...her-than-cars/

Urban design, transport, and health
https://www.thelancet.com/series/urban-design

[bust]

Not sure how old any of you are, but during the heydays of the 50s and 60s, it was all about cars. New homes were being built in those outskirts mentioned above, places closer to Telegraph and Morross than the Boulevard. People were moving from the large older homes and apartments to single family homes with yards and places for gardens and kids to play. They still wanted to be in the city, but not close to the then crowded downtown ring. BUT, they wanted easy transportation and that meant their own cars, not busses or street cars. It would not have been feasible to run rails out Grand River to Telegraph or Gratiot to Morross because no one would have used them.

My own family's example contradicts your theory. They moved from around Hastings to the lower east side then up a streetcar track over by waterworks park and later up to near the end of the transit lines at Moross. Yes, they wanted a single family home and a yard for a garden and the kids to play, but my great grandparents never learned to drive, they used the streetcars and buses everywhere they went. One of their children also opted never to drive, and for many decades past the 60s. They chose where to live largely based on proximity to transit. As transit service declined it became quite a hardship for them.

PS. I haven't owned a car in a very long time; my wife never has. We choose to live and work close to transit much like my relatives did. I guess you'd be surprised how many people have the same preferences we do. And besides the people who prefer transit there are plenty more who for one reason or another need it. They don't live out by you, of course.

BTW, not only were there rails on Grand River out to Telegraph and on Gratiot out to 7 Mile [[I assume that's what you meant since Gratiot and Moross don't intersect), they went even further. The Grand River streetcar line ended at 7 Mile; the Gratiot line just past 8 Mile.

Detroit Streetcar Rail Map 1941
https://detroitography.com/2013/10/1...rail-map-1941/

[Jason]

Ever since the last RTA vote, Hackel said all along that trying to push the RTA through in 2018 would jeopardize the SMART millage renewal. He was dead on. SMART won comfortably in the southern communities like St. Clair Shores, Roseville, Eastpointe, Fraser. The reason why Macomb's vote was so close is because Oakland and Wayne have opt-out communities who would have soundly rejected the SMART millage if they had an opportunity to vote.

On one hand, after the vote I realized what Hackel was saying was true.

But on the other hand, I think the reason the vote was so close was because through his opposition to the RTA, he's been campaigning against transit. For most people in Macomb County, transit is a new subject that they don't usually think much about and that they don't necessarily have strong feelings about. If people hadn't been hearing that transit was bad for Macomb County from its leaders, I think it would have been closer to the ~60% that it normally gets.