Shoo! that is close.. The SMART Bus Millage results

[Danny]

This ain't over...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ace/937142002/

Seeing on Facebook the Yes "campagin" and TRU all calling victory and really downplaying the Macomb vote was quite astonishing. Sorry, but no. This is quite serious and it's ridiculous some NIMBY/Frank Rizzo named Leon Drolet had this much power to spread misinformation and lies about the needs of SMART. The guy doesn't like taxes. After SMART, he'll move onto some other government agency and try and dismantle that.

I completely blame Hackel for this one. He "supports" SMART, but did nothing to counter anything Drolet said. He is not vocal about it. He shrugged his shoulders, said vote yes, and moved on. When he should've been on TV, alongside Megan Owens, and making sure Macomb voters knew what that question meant. Way to go Hack!

What we do need is a sales tax and it would be nice for the legislature, if possible, to pass a bill to allow for sales taxes for transportation authorities. If it needs to be a vote of the people, not sure how that can happen. I would imagine the entire state needs to vote for any changes to the state constitution so how can we guarantee it passing both here and outstate? Then the only caveat would be that the sales tax can only be used to pay for regional transportation systems.

How about this for scare tactic. If Macomb County didn't pass the SMART bus millage, most regional businesses from automation factories to retail stores could leave!

Watch out. It happen in Livonia after 2007 SMART bus opt out. Fewer factories left including Gilbert's Quicken Loans annex buildings to Downtown Detroit. But that's democracy.

[3WC]

More taxes for Detroit. Yeah, that's a plan.

I have no confidence in anything civic "leaders" say anymore whether they're elected or private.

The Q-line is about the dumbest so-called public works debacle I've seen or heard about - and I've been around a very long time, and have owned and operated several successful businesses.

It's true that the Q-line was built by the private sector [[two guys) with government support, but in 10 years it and its significant financial burdens revert to public ownership as I understand it. Can't wait. If it lasts that long I hope the city sells the cars and tears up the tracks.

The developers could have saved millions, not only in money, but in the value of time lost and inconvenience while building the damn thing and tearing up downtown to do it, by buying 4 luxury busses and running them on that loop. Faster, far less expensive, and more comfortable than those Q-line cars [[I'm told, because I've never ridden it although I've heard the horror stories from those that have.)

[JonWylie]

The Q-line is about the dumbest so-called public works debacle I've seen or heard about....I'm told, because I've never ridden it although I've heard the horror stories from those that have.)

You should maybe ride it once before you proclaim it as the dumbest ever

[Meddle]

One or two have touched on it, but the rest seem to have forgotten that 'transit' was a big thing ... WAS ... up until the 70s or so. The region has moved on and doesn't need to go backwards.

[dtowncitylover]

[[I'm told, because I've never ridden it although I've heard the horror stories from those that have.)

Kinda lost any credibility. I'd love to hear these horror stories. 20 minute wait? Crammed car the opening weekend?

I have my complaints but I've never waited more than 10 minutes, the cars are air conditioned, and I've never had a bad experience with the people around me.

Truly the only debacle was really center running or curb alignment that's been hashed out to the point of who cares anymore? Yeah it sucks, get over it.

[Jason]

Don't let your curmudgeoness get in the way of seeing the facts.

Gilbert has *at least* $500,000,000 worth of real estate downtown. He spent $15,000,000 on the Q-Line. Even though the Q-Line won't be an especially successful transit project [[like you said, it doesn't provide better transit service than buses do), it will still be successful at raising property values. You only need a 3% increase to break even on the investment.

Operating costs for the Q-Line should be about $5 million a year. With the astronomical prices of some of these new condos, and Detroit's very high property taxes, depending on the Q-Line's effect on those developments, it's possible even the city made money off of it.

However the route for the Q-Line is very particular in that that is the only area that is compact enough and has high enough property values that this kind of thing could work. Here you have buildings worth millions of dollars, while to the North, even the mansions in Boston Edison are only worth a few hundred thousand and they're on big lots.

A proper metro system would do better. It would provide actual transit rather than only the image/prestige of transit, making locations near stations more desirable, dense, and valuable. It's not enough to pay for itself, but it might be enough to make things financially possible for us.

[Bham1982]

With the astronomical prices of some of these new condos, and Detroit's very high property taxes, depending on the Q-Line's effect on those developments, it's possible even the city made money off of it.

What "astronomical prices" are you referring to? Has even one Detroit condo closed with an "astronomical price" psf?

How are you going to ascertain whether the Q-Line increases property values? Obviously there is no way to do so. One can do a silly "X property increased by Y value following Q Line construction" like they always do with sports stadia or convention centers but that isn't a remotely serious analysis.

[ABetterDetroit]

Operating costs for the Q-Line should be about $5 million a year. With the astronomical prices of some of these new condos, and Detroit's very high property taxes, depending on the Q-Line's effect on those developments, it's possible even the city made money off of it.

All the new condominiums that I have found in Detroit are being sold under the NEZ program where the taxes are extremely low.

If you are aware of new ones in the planning phase or under construction that are NOT under the NEZ I would be very interested in hearing about them.

[dtowncitylover]

One or two have touched on it, but the rest seem to have forgotten that 'transit' was a big thing ... WAS ... up until the 70s or so. The region has moved on and doesn't need to go backwards.

Ok Robert Moses, whatever you say. Please tell us more how cars and transit vans, autonomous or otherwise, are going to relieve congestion and make our cities more urban and dense?

[Honky Tonk]

Ok Robert Moses, whatever you say. Please tell us more how cars and transit vans, autonomous or otherwise, are going to relieve congestion and make our cities more urban and dense?

Please explain to me why you need to use methods to forcibly move people back into urban areas?

[dtowncitylover]

Please explain to me why you need to use methods to forcibly move people back into urban areas?

When did I ever even imply that?

You wanna live at 45 Mile and Bumbfuck Rd in the middle of a cul-de-sac? Have fun. Go buy yourself a Ford F-5000

You wanna live at Woodward and State? Walk, transit, bicycle

You wanna visit Woodward and State from your McMansion at 45 Mile and Bumbfuck Rd? Your F-5000 is not a guaranteed right down here, don't act like it is.

[professorscott]

You wanna live at 45 Mile and Bumbfuck Rd in the middle of a cul-de-sac? Have fun. Go buy yourself a Ford F-5000

You wanna live at Woodward and State? Walk, transit, bicycle

You see, dtown, you've hit the nail on the head here. The loyal opposition on this thread seems to be of the opinion that giving people choices is a bad thing; that everyone must buy an F-5000 and live in the cul-de-sac environment which you described. Apparently they think Detroit would have done better over the years if it had reconfigured itself into a bunch of third-of-an-acre, cul-de-sac, strict-zoning, transit-hostile neighborhoods like the ones they apparently enjoy.

[Honky Tonk]

When did I ever even imply that?

You wanna live at 45 Mile and Bumbfuck Rd in the middle of a cul-de-sac? Have fun. Go buy yourself a Ford F-5000

You wanna live at Woodward and State? Walk, transit, bicycle

You wanna visit Woodward and State from your McMansion at 45 Mile and Bumbfuck Rd? Your F-5000 is not a guaranteed right down here, don't act like it is.

If I want to live @ "45 Mile and Bumbfuck" and drive a "Ford F-5000", or if I want to live @ Woodward and State and drive a "Ford F-5000", it certainly is my peragative. I don't need the blessings of some self-appointed urban renewal cop, telling me what I can and can't do, how to live my life, or preaching their dogma to me, on how they "think" things should or shouldn't be.

[Honky Tonk]

You see, dtown, you've hit the nail on the head here. The loyal opposition on this thread seems to be of the opinion that giving people choices is a bad thing; that everyone must buy an F-5000 and live in the cul-de-sac environment which you described. Apparently they think Detroit would have done better over the years if it had reconfigured itself into a bunch of third-of-an-acre, cul-de-sac, strict-zoning, transit-hostile neighborhoods like the ones they apparently enjoy.

Exactly what are you a "professor" of, Scott? Certainly not Blight Rail planning.

[dtowncitylover]

If I want to live @ "45 Mile and Bumbfuck" and drive a "Ford F-5000", or if I want to live @ Woodward and State and drive a "Ford F-5000", it certainly is my peragative. I don't need the blessings of some self-appointed urban renewal cop, telling me what I can and can't do, how to live my life, or preaching their dogma to me, on how they "think" things should or shouldn't be.

It is your prerogative, but you're gonna look like an idiot doing it.

Or until one day, God-willing, downtown Detroit will be rid of cars or have congestion tolls into the city center. What a glorious day that will be!

Also, my point at living at Woodward and State is that you won't have a permanent parking spot. At all. Not with your building and certainly not on the street.

[Honky Tonk]

It is your prerogative, but you're gonna look like an idiot doing it.

Or until one day, God-willing, downtown Detroit will be rid of cars or have congestion tolls into the city center. What a glorious day that will be!

Also, my point at living at Woodward and State is that you won't have a permanent parking spot. At all. Not with your building and certainly not on the street.

There's something seriously wrong with you. Seig Hiel.....

[Bham1982]

I
Or until one day, God-willing, downtown Detroit will be rid of cars or have congestion tolls into the city center. What a glorious day that will be!

While it's cool you have dreams for Detroit, why not move somewhere that actually has such a landscape? Pretty much city on the planet outside the U.S., and many cities in the U.S., would fit such preferences.

Detroit is one of the most autocentric, sprawly geographies on the face of the planet. It's like living at the North Pole and complaining about the cold, or living in Mongolia and complaining about the lack of good Peruvian food.

[mwilbert]

Which cities in the US have car-free downtowns or congestion charges?

Anyway, there's no reason we can't have nice things too. Downtown is no more than a couple of percent of the metro area; even if [[in some distant, not-overly-probable future) there were significant restrictions on cars downtown, the rest of the metro would have plenty of places to drive.

[dtowncitylover]

There's something seriously wrong with you. Seig Hiel.....

Ah yes cause my aversion to cars and auto-centric culture has a direct analogy to a man who took power and murdered up to 15 million people and started a world war.

[dtowncitylover]

While it's cool you have dreams for Detroit, why not move somewhere that actually has such a landscape? Pretty much city on the planet outside the U.S., and many cities in the U.S., would fit such preferences.

Detroit is one of the most autocentric, sprawly geographies on the face of the planet. It's like living at the North Pole and complaining about the cold, or living in Mongolia and complaining about the lack of good Peruvian food.

Because Detroit is my hometown. I want to see it thrive and be vibrant and lessen its reliance on cars, gas, and highways.

The North Pole and the fact I'm not a Peruvian living in Mongolia have nothing to do with me and my dreams for my hometown. For my hometown to be a functional, urban city.

I've said repeatedly that there's no law saying we needed to create an auto-centric place. In fact our auto-centric was very much planned and it's wrecked havoc on our metro and been a boon for our over-sprawling.

And I don't think any city have a car-free downtown or congestion charges. But a man can dream, can't he? London does have a congestion charge Monday thru Friday.

Cities are for people, not cars. Period.

[Honky Tonk]

Because Detroit is my hometown. I want to see it thrive and be vibrant and lessen its reliance on cars, gas, and highways.

The North Pole and the fact I'm not a Peruvian living in Mongolia have nothing to do with me and my dreams for my hometown. For my hometown to be a functional, urban city.

I've said repeatedly that there's no law saying we needed to create an auto-centric place. In fact our auto-centric was very much planned and it's wrecked havoc on our metro and been a boon for our over-sprawling.

And I don't think any city have a car-free downtown or congestion charges. But a man can dream, can't he? London does have a congestion charge Monday thru Friday.

Cities are for people, not cars. Period.

I guess one size does fit all. If you really believe that's the reason for the mass exodus out of Detroit, then I have some seaside property in Iowa to sell you.

[Richard]

If I want to live @ "45 Mile and Bumbfuck" and drive a "Ford F-5000", or if I want to live @ Woodward and State and drive a "Ford F-5000", it certainly is my peragative. I don't need the blessings of some self-appointed urban renewal cop, telling me what I can and can't do, how to live my life, or preaching their dogma to me, on how they "think" things should or shouldn't be.

Unless you want to open a restaurant in Corktown,then seig hiel applies?

Maybe the way to go would be match dollar for dollar rail and roads.

It is kinda hard to force a taxpayer to pay for transit on roads and then tell them this is what you get,be happy with what we provide for you.

[dtowncitylover]

I guess one size does fit all. If you really believe that's the reason for the mass exodus out of Detroit, then I have some seaside property in Iowa to sell you.

Sorry you fail to understand massive subsidized highway building resulting in massive subsidized urban sprawl developments near highway interchanges leading to auto-centric towns that allowed mostly only white people to escape the city.

White flight was as much about racism as it was about Robert Moses' dreams of highways, planned developments, and malls all catering to the white American middle class of the 1950s and 1960s.

[Honky Tonk]

https://youtu.be/29Mg6Gfh9Co?t=24

[Richard]

https://youtu.be/29Mg6Gfh9Co?t=24

Memories of your youth?