Four restuarants in Royal Oak will be closing

[mtburb]

Detroit emerging as a restaurant hotbed has to have some kind of impact on the rest of the Metro area. How many people were dining out in Midtown 10 years ago?

Probably so.

According to a Facebook group two restaurants and a coffee shop in and near downtown Wyandotte will also be closing soon, due likely to high rent. That bar that was there that burned down back in 2012 most likely won't be reopening for these reasons.

[iheartthed]

Detroit emerging as a restaurant hotbed has to have some kind of impact on the rest of the Metro area. How many people were dining out in Midtown 10 years ago?

I guess parking isn't the issue with Royal Oak then?

People are making it sound like Main St. was lined with a bunch of Red Robins and TGIFridays. Royal Oak is a destination, so having to park a little farther from the door shouldn't drive restaurants out of business. It sounds like there is more going on.

[gnome]

Ya know folks, we use to have real discussions about real things.

Parking, or the lack thereof, is about as interesting as discussing parking or the lack thereof.

Jeeze folks, get funny, or cute or at least interesting.

[Honky Tonk]

I guess parking isn't the issue with Royal Oak then?

People are making it sound like Main St. was lined with a bunch of Red Robins and TGIFridays. Royal Oak is a destination, so having to park a little farther from the door shouldn't drive restaurants out of business. It sounds like there is more going on.

I think the mayor is colluding with the Russians...

[Lowell]

The Mayor of RO responds:
https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...sts/776630002/

Of the other two restaurants said to be closing by an opposition group "called Take Back Royal Oak [who] have issued a stream of news releases, criticizing Fournier and other city officials, blaming them for what they described as a recent exodus of restaurants," ... "the popular Tex-Mex watering hole Cantina Diablo and Red Fox English Pub, both on South Main Street, was also closing, a rumor emphatically denied by owner Brian Kramer, who also owns restaurants in Ferndale and Chesterfield Township."

So only three are closing?

Nonetheless the article cites a remarkable list of RO developments:

• A $60-million combined Hyatt Hotel and residential project is to open this year.
• Recent completions in the downtown of a new parking structure, widely praised for its traditional appearance to blend with the historic post office; and the modernist Etkin Building, a $20-million office tower that in April drew a busload of admiring urban planners and architects from their national convention in Detroit's Cobo Hall.
• Beaumont Woodward Corners, the complete reconstruction of a landmark shopping center at 13 Mile and Woodward Avenue by its landlord, the adjoining William Beaumont Hospital.
• Scores of new houses erected in the last year and 154 new home building permits issued so far this year alone.

[professorscott]

Nonetheless the article cites a remarkable list of RO developments...

Not only that, but if RO gets its proposed local transit system, watch out. That could be a model for improved transit in this dysfunctional region, and should make a big dent in this entire, false argument about "if I can't park my car fifteen feet from the door then I'm not going".

Having big surface lots in the middle of a CBD is almost the definition of an unsuccessful city. Tearing them up for higher-end uses is a mark of improvement. So you have to walk a few blocks? Quit whining; it's good for you.

[Bham1982]

Having big surface lots in the middle of a CBD is almost the definition of an unsuccessful city.

No, it's the definition of a non-urban city. Novi has tons of parking lots but is unquestionably successful. River Rouge has far fewer but is clearly less successful.

The issue is that RO is taxing these restaurants to kill their businesses. They're paying [[very high, and rising) RO taxes to subsidize the construction of buildings which are destroying their livelihood.

If RO were truly successful, they wouldn't need massive subsidies to attract private sector development, and they wouldn't have to tax businesses to oblivion to support the scheme.

This region is basically addicted to RE ponzi schemes, whereby municipalities raise taxes on existing homeowners and businesses to subside development projects that otherwise don't pencil out. Then everyone is shocked when said development project underperforms. We've been doing this for 50 years now. Detroit is the king of this nonsense, but suburbs do it too, even the successful ones.

[professorscott]

No, it's the definition of a non-urban city. Novi has tons of parking lots but is unquestionably successful. River Rouge has far fewer but is clearly less successful.

My gut reaction was to point out that "non-urban city" is to some degree an oxymoron, but on further reflection, I know what you mean, and you're right. A small city that is not within the core of a metropolis can organize itself much differently than a city within a metro core and do pretty well. Novi and Rochester can have big off-street surface lots adjacent to the main commercial district, but Ferndale and Royal Oak ought not to.

I agree in general with your other point, about cities being addicted to The Big Project. Superblock projects kill cities, they do not save them, and as you indicated, they do not often pay for themselves.

[iheartthed]

I think the mayor is colluding with the Russians...

His rhetoric is certainly reminiscent of another blowhard politician that colludes with Russians.

[iheartthed]

No, it's the definition of a non-urban city. Novi has tons of parking lots but is unquestionably successful. River Rouge has far fewer but is clearly less successful.

Define city.

Novi may be... an affluent municipality, but I don't know if I'd call it a "city." Also, this is a personal pet peeve, but I don't think it makes sense to use "successful" as an adjective to describe municipalities.

[Lowell]

Novi is not exactly of a poster child for success. It has had some notable failures like Fountain Walk and the faux ye olde Main Street. Since the initial burst of 12 Oaks and the nearby adjacent shopping it spawned, Novi has stagnated and declined somewhat. Even 12 Oaks has likely peaked and is moving downward.

The whole axis of Novi Road from Grand River to 12 Mile is become a disconnected soulless shopping expanse with next to zero character, especially compared to a Royal Oak or Birmingham.

If one's goal is to go a place where one can do all one's shopping in a relatively quick and complete setting, it is fine. But don't be surprise to be left emotionally empty with little desire to linger beyond your shopping needs.

[swingline]

No, it's the definition of a non-urban city. Novi has tons of parking lots but is unquestionably successful. River Rouge has far fewer but is clearly less successful.

The issue is that RO is taxing these restaurants to kill their businesses. They're paying [[very high, and rising) RO taxes to subsidize the construction of buildings which are destroying their livelihood.

If RO were truly successful, they wouldn't need massive subsidies to attract private sector development, and they wouldn't have to tax businesses to oblivion to support the scheme.

This region is basically addicted to RE ponzi schemes, whereby municipalities raise taxes on existing homeowners and businesses to subside development projects that otherwise don't pencil out. Then everyone is shocked when said development project underperforms. We've been doing this for 50 years now. Detroit is the king of this nonsense, but suburbs do it too, even the successful ones.

Just asking. What kind of higher than normal tax is Royal Oak levying to subsidize new construction? What kind of subsidy is Royal Oak handing out to these projects?

[alsodave]

At least the view is nice...

[casscorridor]

Hopefully, with these restaurant closings, some better options will open up. Mediocre doesn't cut it anymore with so many great options in the CoD.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Yeah dig that CC. Too many of these bar/ restaurants count on your drinking so well and deep, you don't notice the mediocracy of the food served.

[O3H]

What I found interesting is a place like B.Nektar Mead opening in an
Industrial Park area of Ferndale [[not the ordinary thing to do)
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4564124,-83.1072113,16z

Creative Zoning can "aid" a City in attracting new business

[mikehamm45]

Yup... wish Downtown Detroit had this much retail, heck, wish Detroit had downtown Royal Oak inside of it.

Royal Oak always rubbed me the wrong way, not that I am against a small suburban city having a downtown... just always felt that it came up at the expense of the central city. Royal Oak to me has always been an anomaly, a downtown that should not normally exist without the vacuum that is Metro Detroit.

Maybe I am just jealous.

[Lowell]

I'm happy to report as of today the Beefcarver at 11 and Woodward in Royal Oak has not closed. Inexpensive comfort food with all-you-can-eat free beets and dill pickles. And one of the few restaurants I can go to where is am younger than the clientele.

[Bham1982]

And going back to the initial narrative in this thread, it has been confirmed that the restaurants in question are indeed closing.

City Hall was not being truthful re. the closings [[nor were the restaurant owners) and the "Take Back RO" coaliation's claims were correct.

[JBMcB]

City Hall was not being truthful re. the closings [[nor were the restaurant owners) and the "Take Back RO" coaliation's claims were correct.

Two of them, Diablo's and Red Fox, were sold to another developer who is turning them into different restaurants. I guess you could technically call that a "closing" as they have to close to remodel [[Red Fox is staying open while Diablo's is remodeled) but I don't think that was the gist of the coalition's claim.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/en...pts/798277002/

As for Dixie Moon, I don't see any news article about them closing. Link?

[Bham1982]

Two of them, Diablo's and Red Fox, were sold to another developer who is turning them into different restaurants. I guess you could technically call that a "closing" as they have to close to remodel [[Red Fox is staying open while Diablo's is remodeled) but I don't think that was the gist of the coalition's claim.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/en...pts/798277002/

As for Dixie Moon, I don't see any news article about them closing. Link?

What are you talking about "technically closing"? They're closing, done, finished. This was exactly the coalition's claim.

The restaurants are closing, the mayor lied, the restaurant owners lied, and the coalition told the truth.

No one claimed "these restaurant spaces would be permanently abandoned, with tumbleweeds blowing down Main Street"; obviously there will be replacement restaurant uses. RO isn't some Wild West ghost town.

I have no idea what's happening re. Dixie Moon, but would bet it's closing too, since the coalition was spot on [[and the city full of crap) re. everything else.

[dtowncitylover]

And going back to the initial narrative in this thread, it has been confirmed that the restaurants in question are indeed closing.

City Hall was not being truthful re. the closings [[nor were the restaurant owners) and the "Take Back RO" coaliation's claims were correct.

No. They weren't. The restaurants are being developed into new concepts. Andiamo's flipped the city a bird and ran off without securing a new tenant, though I'm sure the space will be filled easily. "Take Back" Royal Oak wants to see all of downtown deserted to prove their misguided point, that's what they had in mind when they claimed, wrongly, that those two restos were closing, read: shuttering.

[Bham1982]

No. They weren't. The restaurants are being developed into new concepts.

I.E., they're closing, exactly the same as Andiamo. And there will be a replacement use, exactly the same as Andiamo. No one would think that these restaurant spaces would be permanently abandoned.

Some of the arguments in this thread are almost Trumpian in their idiocy. The mayor clearly lied, the coalition clearly told the truth, and were excorciated for doing so.

Are these restaurants closing? Yes or No? Very simple question.

[dtowncitylover]

I.E., they're closing, exactly the same as Andiamo. And there will be a replacement use, exactly the same as Andiamo. No one would think that these restaurant spaces would be permanently abandoned.

Some of the arguments in this thread are almost Trumpian in their idiocy. The mayor clearly lied, the coalition clearly told the truth, and were excorciated for doing so.

Are these restaurants closing? Yes or No? Very simple question.

But you don't understand the nuance [[no surprise there) of the "Take Back" RO campaign. They don't want these restaurants to be redeveloped. They wish to see them shuttered in order to make their point about parking.

Red Fox and Cantina are closing but it's not being abandoned. The spaces are not closing, they are being redeveloped. Andiamo's abandoned their space and made up a shit excuse because they have shit food. I didn't know Andiamo's is being redeveloped, have you heard something?

[Towne Cluber]

But you don't understand the nuance [[no surprise there) of the "Take Back" RO campaign. They don't want these restaurants to be redeveloped. They wish to see them shuttered in order to make their point about parking.

Red Fox and Cantina are closing but it's not being abandoned. The spaces are not closing, they are being redeveloped. Andiamo's abandoned their space and made up a shit excuse because they have shit food. I didn't know Andiamo's is being redeveloped, have you heard something?

Both sides are right and wrong. The mayor’s behavior during this matter has been inappropriate to say the least. Andiamo is also culpable and not so innocent. The loss of two parking lots was certainly going to take a toll on businesses as well as available parking. The Red Fox/Catina owner is bringing in a 40% equity partner to either help an Executive Chef achieve his dream of owning a restaurant and/or take advantage of someone to stem his own losses. Probably a little bit of both.