Duggan: Underground railway tunnel way of future for Detroit Metro

[royce]

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

If my knowledge is a few years behind [[that' usually two or more years), then the fact that the state owns the rails lines from Detroit to Metro Airport and hasn't done anything is pitiful. Why wouldn't the political will be there? Is this that expensive to operate? Another question, "How far into the airport would this rail line go?" Clearly a shuttle or bus would have to take passengers the rest of the way. Given that fact, wouldn't the FAST bus not only get you to the airport, but pull right up to the two major terminals. Again, for the state not to speed up this process is pitiful, and if they are stalling because certain people won't be able to exclusively line their pockets, then that's just criminal.

[MicrosoftFan]

I hope Duggan does not fall into Musk’s trap. His companies make fancy renderings and dream up whimsical ideas so municipal governments can open their taxpayer pocketbooks and fork over tax subsidies. A massively expensive tunnel that will serve a few thousand business travelers every day will not help ANYONE in Detroit, besides a very select few who are either from the suburbs or not even from the area.

If musk wants to help build Detroit, he can build tunnels or guideways for conventional light rail, not some space-age tunnel dream of little pods floating on magnets flying at 200mph from DTW to Campus Martius.

Detroit DOES NOT need a cutting edge solution. Maybe NY or Chicago, with their more advanced systems, but not Detroit. We need the basic essentials of transit:

1) Express buses on major arteries that run into downtown and crosstown; 15 min frequency in rush hr.

2) A light rail network with ~40 miles of track, one line down Woodward, another to Airport via SW Detroit/Vernor and railroad ROWs

3) A single transit agency with a single fare card.


It’s not rocket science- our polticians need to focus on building proven solutions, not ones from Elon Musk’s imagination. Focus on LRT and a better bus network. We can’t afford a third transit boondoggle.

[MicrosoftFan]

Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

People need to stop hating on Chicago’s transit. While neither fast, clean, or extensive, it certainly isn’t slow, dirty, or minuscule. Chicago’s System does what few other American ones do- Get the job done. While DC is having fires once a week and massive disruptions, and NY is dealing with the breakdown of an intracite century old network of signals, Chicago’s system works- not good, not bad, just works.

Chicago has been investing in its rail for a long time now. They rehabbed the Douglas Branch [[2002), Green Line full [[1994), Red Line South [[2013), Brown Line full [[2007), Red Line north [[current), and Blue Line to OHare [[current). They are doing what a transit system should be doing and focusing on maintenance.

And on the commuter rail point, have you ever seen trains on the BNSF racetrack in rush hour? They are diesel but can push 80-90mph. Chicago’s diesels are better than its electrics [[See: SSL)

[SammyS]

Direct rail links sound awesome but as I mentioned in another thread, that method and technology may already be antiquated. At least we know it’s expensive. Why can’t Detroit come up with better solutions to problems as it did at the turn of the 20th century. We have the talent and certainly the motivation. We just need ideas.

[Detroit Stylin]

Direct rail links sound awesome but as I mentioned in another thread, that method and technology may already be antiquated. At least we know it’s expensive. Why can’t Detroit come up with better solutions to problems as it did at the turn of the 20th century. We have the talent and certainly the motivation. We just need ideas.

Because you know....racism, Oakland and Macomb Counties

[casscorridor]

I'm not sure what you're arguing, as no one said "there should be no public transit links to major airport".

Re-read my previous comments. I wrote that such rail links aren't particularly important, which is true. They have low ridership, even in the Paris/London/NYC type cities, and are essentially irrelevant to overall transit ridership and regional mobility, which is why a region like ours shouldn't be wasting time discussing such a marginal issue.

The rail link to DeGaulle probably has the best conditions on earth for such a line [[#1 tourist city on the planet, probably best suburban rail system in world) yet the RER link to CDG only generates like 30k riders in a system that carries like 8 million daily rail passengers.

Not sure about Paris, but I don't think 30k riders is not marginal.

Also, in London, 41% of passengers arrived at the Heathrow airport via public transit, 52% at Stanstead and 42% at Gatwick. I wouldn't call that low ridership.

And it doesn't matter if airport rail links are relevant to the rest of the system. It provides an important amenity that makes these cities more attractive to business, tourists and residents alike.

[Honky Tonk]

Because you know....racism, Oakland and Macomb Counties

I highly suggest you call Uber or Lyft, because it sounds like you don't have a vehicle and get out much, and actually take a trip and look around Oakland and Macomb counties. In my friend's block, where homes are between $360 - $500K, there are 3 "black" families alone, kids, grandma, the whole 9 yards. We go into higher-end restaurants, and there are black couples, inter-racial couples, mixed "color" friends, eating, drinking, and having good times. It's the same way in the Points. Sitting on a forum, spewing tired old 60's racist dogma, isn't helping anyone.

[mallory]

I'd like to see them make better use of the Amtrak rail that runs right by the airport. Why not make better use of it by adding a "train" or something similar that can run on the already existing track from the airport to downtown? With Ford resurrecting the MCS, it makes me wonder if there is a future in rail. As for the northern counties, is there that much demand to spend a gazillion dollars on a project like this? I'm not seeing it.

[ABetterDetroit]

A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

These discussions about whether Detroit should spend on transit tend to be extremely flawed. If you own a house in Metro Detroit and you don't want it to be worthless in 20 years, you should be the biggest cheerleader of these transit projects, whether you live near it or not. Transit investment [[or lack of) is something that will benefit [[or not) a region for decades down the line. The effects of it will go on long after many of us have died.

A train link to DTW would permanently change the way people commute between the city and the airport. It's not what Detroit will look like next year, but more like what will Detroit be in 20-50 years. Detroit cannot remain a major city -- and Metro Detroit cannot remain a major metropolitan area -- if the region doesn't start spending on alternative modes of transportation.

To be honest, the only thing flawed is your not understanding what has been happening to the jobs in Detroit for a very long time. Cranking the property tax rate ever higher has made it way too easy for all companies large and small to make their capital improvements in buildings elsewhere.

When the property tax rate on a new facility is half of Detroit’s out in Walled Lake or Auburn Hills, take a wild guess at what happens? In Atlanta the property tax rate is 6 times lower than Detroit’s. Same problem on steroids.

Detroit just can’t make exceptions and abatements for property taxes indefinitely.

Fine if all the new professional residents are good with paying high taxes in the rent [[although a shit load of them live in NEZ properties ironically) you're still crushing the lower and middle class by raising them yet again to get what you want. Taking jobs and housing and destroying both in one FUBAR tax rate.

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

[dtowncitylover]

I highly suggest you call Uber or Lyft, because it sounds like you don't have a vehicle and get out much, and actually take a trip and look around Oakland and Macomb counties. In my friend's block, where homes are between $360 - $500K, there are 3 "black" families alone, kids, grandma, the whole 9 yards. We go into higher-end restaurants, and there are black couples, inter-racial couples, mixed "color" friends, eating, drinking, and having good times. It's the same way in the Points. Sitting on a forum, spewing tired old 60's racist dogma, isn't helping anyone.

I'm so glad regional racism is now dead with your anecdotal black families and inter-racial couples.

Calling out continued regional policies based in historical racially motivated thought [[i.e. whites have access to suburbs and cars more than their black counterparts) is not racist.

[dtowncitylover]

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

You probably would've said that 20, 30, 40 years ago and look where we still are.

I like how you call this an "idea" as if it doesn't exist anywhere else on earth except oh wait it does. Literally everywhere.

[ABetterDetroit]

You probably would've said that 20, 30, 40 years ago and look where we still are.

I like how you call this an "idea" as if it doesn't exist anywhere else on earth except oh wait it does. Literally everywhere.

The lies that the pro rail people will tell. It’s just shameful.

This list hardly looks like “everywhere.”


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...s_by_ridership

[dtowncitylover]

The lies that the pro rail people will tell. It’s just shameful.

This list hardly looks like “everywhere.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...s_by_ridership

The idea isn't rail ridership. The idea is investing in public transit and the economic and social benefits it provides.

And you showing me a list of 30 commuter rail systems in the U.S. isn't exactly disproving my point. In fact, I'm unsure what you're trying to show considering most of the big regions that we are trying to compete with it are on there. Then again, we are also on a global stage and we're still struggling.

Please show me a study about the economic benefits of Uber/Lyft that equate to the same benefits of mass transit systems. I'd love to see it.

This Duggan thing, while forward thinking, is probably not going to happen. It's just him trying to show how open he is to big projects. That's nice.

[Honky Tonk]

I'm so glad regional racism is now dead with your anecdotal black families and inter-racial couples.

Calling out continued regional policies based in historical racially motivated thought [[i.e. whites have access to suburbs and cars more than their black counterparts) is not racist.

Thank you Dr. King. No, racism isn't totally dead, but people keep propagating it by posting half truths.

[dtowncitylover]

Thank you Dr. King. No, racism isn't totally dead, but people keep propagating it by posting half truths.

You're welcome.

Regional transit since the 1960s/70s has always seen thinly-veiled racial attitudes. Any Free Press editorial or letter to the editor in the 70s and 80s will attest to this. "We don't want you people in our suburb."

But today it's "drug traffickers", "poor people only use transit", and "make them pay for it". Same old, same old.

[iheartthed]

To be honest, the only thing flawed is your not understanding what has been happening to the jobs in Detroit for a very long time. Cranking the property tax rate ever higher has made it way too easy for all companies large and small to make their capital improvements in buildings elsewhere.

When the property tax rate on a new facility is half of Detroit’s out in Walled Lake or Auburn Hills, take a wild guess at what happens? In Atlanta the property tax rate is 6 times lower than Detroit’s. Same problem on steroids.

Detroit just can’t make exceptions and abatements for property taxes indefinitely.

Fine if all the new professional residents are good with paying high taxes in the rent [[although a shit load of them live in NEZ properties ironically) you're still crushing the lower and middle class by raising them yet again to get what you want. Taking jobs and housing and destroying both in one FUBAR tax rate.

The 40% that live in poverty in Detroit really don’t have “20 years” to see how well your idea pans out. They need jobs and opportunity in their neighborhoods close to home now, ASAP!

I think you're the one not seeing the big picture. Metro Detroit has not kept pace on wages or property values relative to most other major American cities. Of the top 15 metro areas, only Miami has a lower median income. Population growth has been anemic in Metro Detroit for far longer than I've been alive.

These regional issues aren't rectified by moving a company from the city to the 'burbs. The murder rate in Detroit isn't causing it, either. And if low taxes were the answer, suburban Detroit should've carried the area to prosperity. Instead, what we've witnessed, is a certain group of suburban Detroit leaders driving the region towards the edge of the cliff.

[Honky Tonk]

Same old, same old.

I agree, if people are against what I want, well then it must be racist.

[Danny]

A subway in Detroit. We have tried that in the late 1920s but those car companies wants us to buy their cars instead.

[dtowncitylover]

I agree, if people are against what I want, well then it must be racist.

Not at all, but if one is using social parameters to be against transit then yes there are racial undertones.

If you're against it because you don't want to payer higher taxes, then I'll just call you cheap. Us metro Detroiters are used to cheap living. We feel entitled to living like Manhattan but don't exactly want to pay for it. Then we wonder why our roads suck, our power goes out multiple times a year, our schools suck, our kids are leaving after college, and our population has basically been the same for the past 45 years.

[Honky Tonk]

Not at all, but if one is using social parameters to be against transit then yes there are racial undertones.

If you're against it because you don't want to payer higher taxes, then I'll just call you cheap. Us metro Detroiters are used to cheap living. We feel entitled to living like Manhattan but don't exactly want to pay for it. Then we wonder why our roads suck, our power goes out multiple times a year, our schools suck, our kids are leaving after college, and our population has basically been the same for the past 45 years.

Actually, none of that has anything to do with being cheap. What you call cheap, I see as funds being misappropriated. Money was there, enough to go around. Instead of it being used wisely and spent for what it was intended, it was spent on other things. Can you tell me why MDOT spent 41 mil paving Penske's racetrack instead of roads? Where did the money come from for white lines and plastic sticks for the bike lanes? Now Dugg'in is trying to sell a Stargate tunnel that by it's very existence, will put Detroit back on the map. People Remover, Blight Rail, Magic Tunnel, Billionaire Stadiums, always pie-in-the-sky, always the cart in front of the horse, and always, and the solution is more money. Chicago is building a tunnel because there's a need in Chicago for a tunnel. Detroit wants one, well, because all the other kids have one.

[dtowncitylover]

Actually, none of that has anything to do with being cheap. What you call cheap, I see as funds being misappropriated. Money was there, enough to go around. Instead of it being used wisely and spent for what it was intended, it was spent on other things. Can you tell me why MDOT spent 41 mil paving Penske's racetrack instead of roads? Where did the money come from for white lines and plastic sticks for the bike lanes? Now Dugg'in is trying to sell a Stargate tunnel that by it's very existence, will put Detroit back on the map. People Remover, Blight Rail, Magic Tunnel, Billionaire Stadiums, always pie-in-the-sky, always the cart in front of the horse, and always, and the solution is more money. Chicago is building a tunnel because there's a need in Chicago for a tunnel. Detroit wants one, well, because all the other kids have one.

Well considering this project isn't going to happen, Duggan is just open to big idea projects, something we've sorely lacked in this town for generations.

I can't tell you why MDOT does the things it does and no one has been able to for the past 50 years, but it has nothing to do with the RTA.

And there's nothing wrong with dedicated bike lanes and barriers. Motorists bitch and moan when they have to share the road and now bitch and moan when bicyclists get "special treatment" for their own lanes [[how ironic and laughable). Money well spent in my book.

[Honky Tonk]

Well considering this project isn't going to happen, Duggan is just open to big idea projects, something we've sorely lacked in this town for generations.

I can't tell you why MDOT does the things it does and no one has been able to for the past 50 years, but it has nothing to do with the RTA.

And there's nothing wrong with dedicated bike lanes and barriers. Motorists bitch and moan when they have to share the road and now bitch and moan when bicyclists get "special treatment" for their own lanes [[how ironic and laughable). Money well spent in my book.

You might want to try reading on a Kindle.

[Meddle]

I simply cannot imagine relying on transit in any form to get to and from work or shopping. Maybe simply because of my own non-traditional schedule. I always worked odd somewhat flexible hours and frequently [[as in most days) went different places either before, during or immediately after work. I needed a car, flat out could not have done it any other way.

When I went shopping, even for groceries, I went to several stores in each trip, carrying items from each. There is simply no way I could have done that by bus.

[dtowncitylover]

You might want to try reading on a Kindle.

Nope. Never.

[ABetterDetroit]

And if low taxes were the answer, suburban Detroit should've carried the area to prosperity.

The lower taxes in the suburbs are only lower relative to Detroit.

Lansing rigged the system to benefit the suburbs and strip the wealth and jobs out of Detroit and move them to the suburbs.

The really stupid part is that while they concentrated on that job, other states where lining up and doing the exact same thing to Michigan.

Property taxes in all of Michigan are too high to compete very well nationally, but in Detroit they are a death knell they are so high. 90 mills is supposed to keep people confused. If you don’t know what that means please learn the math.

I support public transportation but it has to be funded by the same successful tax vehicles it is elsewhere. Like in your hometown for example. If public transport has the same lousy tax vehicle hitched to it it will be underfunded, fail and face a day of reckoning when the property tax rates are finally examined as the major growth inhibiter they are. It will happen just like it did to the personal property tax here. It is not a matter of ‘if’ just a matter of ‘when.’ What we have going on is unsustainable long term in relation to other states. They are literally eating off our plate, taking our most talented people away and the jobs that go with them.

https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-a...es-your-state/

https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/pte...TEstimator.asp