Duggan: Underground railway tunnel way of future for Detroit Metro

[Bham1982]

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

Business visitors aren't paying anyways, so tend to take the fastest, easiest path [[usually Uber). Same goes for families with children. Budget tourists are the only viable market, and they can be accommodated by really any connection, train or bus.

[Jason]

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

1985 - Toronto Scarborough RT - 6.4km
1986 - Vancouver Skytrain Expo Line - 28.9km
1987 - Detroit People Mover - 4.7km
1990 - Osaka Nagahori Tsurumi-ryokuchi Line - 15km
1991 - Toei Oedo Line - 40.7km
1998 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line - 29km
2001 - Kobe Kaigan Line - 7.9km
2002 - AirTrain JFK - 13km
2002 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line - 20.1km
2005 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 - 43.7km
2005 - Fukuoka Nanakurma Line - 12km
2006 - Osaka Imazatosuji Line - 11.9km
2008 - Yokohama Green Line - 13km
2008 - Beijing Airport Express - 28.1km
2009 - Guangzhou Metro Line 5 - 31.9km
2013 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 - 24.3km
2013 - Yongin EverLine - 18.1km
2015 - Sendai Tozai Line - 13.9km
2016 - Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line Extension - 17km
2016 - Guangzhou Metro Line 6 Extension - 17.6km
2017 - Guangzhou Metro Line 4 Extension - 13.6km
2017 - Vancouver Skytrain Millenium Line Evergreen Extension - 11km
2020 - Kuala Lumpur Klang Valley Line - 36km
In Planning - Tokyo metro 7/Eight Liner Lines - 59.7km
In Planning - Okinawa Island Railway - 69km
In Planning - Dehli Light Metro - 35km

Combined, over 2000 train cars have been built for these lines, most of them within the last 20 years, and by a variety of manufacturers.

[ABetterDetroit]

Duggan is trying to address a specific problem which was not well described in the article. Due to the way DTW is built, if there were to ever be a commuter rail service between Ann Arbor and Detroit, the only way to connect to the actual airport terminals would be to build a tunnel from the tracks to the terminals [[he is NOT talking about building a subway from the airport to downtown Detroit).

The tunnel would need to go under the runways. In other cities, the connection between airport terminals and regional railways is sometimes done using automated trains running on elevated tracks, similar to Detroit's PeopleMover. This would not be an option for Metro because the elevated tracks would have to go over the runways to reach the terminals.

A) The schools still suck.

B) The homicide rate is way to fucking high.

C) A propety tax rate of +4% annually is insane and leads to ruins and low job creation but works well for foreclosing and throwing people out of their houses.

I second 3WC on a Billion dollar I75 expansion is moronic. How does one horribly spent Billion dollar project make the next one Right? Insanity.

Work harder with more money invested on schools and after school activities for young people. Critically important problem.

Lower the homicide rate a lot immediately. Hire many more highly qualified police and get them the best training possible. Another critically important problem.

Freeze all property tax millages in Detroit and work hard to cut the rate so an average Detroiter can actually build some wealth in a home like the rest of America does. An important unaddressed issue in Detroit for those who are NOT Dan Gilbert or on an NEZ.

Riding in a train from Downtown to the Airport so one can enjoy the Internet on the way and not worry about the Uber running into traffic? Not nearly as important to the human beings living in generational poverty in Detroit and to their well being as A), B), C).

If Seattle can afford Musk, great for them. Unfortunately, we have critical issues that need funding NOW. And need to get started immediately. Time has been wasted.

[Junjie]

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

This is exactly right. Airport links mostly serve the only people who go to the airport every day: the people who work at the airport. The fact that it would be nice five times a year for Bob at GM to take a train to the airport doesn't mean it's the most important service to provide [[although Bob has a big voice that makes it feel that way to city/county leaders).

Like, if we suddenly have a company willing to fund the construction of tunnels, they should obviously drill one under Woodward from downtown to [as far possible]. That would actually be useful to a lot of people on a daily basis. If they want to keep drilling, they can do other busy bus routes like Michigan, Grand River, Gratiot, Jefferson, Van Dyke, Eight Mile, etc. The airport would be way down the priority list, except possibly as an extension to a local Michigan Ave route similar to the existing CTA Blue Line.

[Dexlin]

Obviously any route that would serve the airport would almost assuredly use a major part of the Michigan Avenue corridor. Are we also acting like every trip on a route like this would be end-to-end? The idea that this would only serve business travelers seems like a very ignorant assumption.

[royce]

The hindrance to commuter rail to the airport has always been the fact that the rail lines that we need are privately owned. These private rail lines have dictated for years what Amtrak's schedule has been. Any other entity wanting to use their rail lines will be dealt the same hand as Amtrak. The solution to this problem is to build our own rail line to the airport. The easiest place to build one is along the median of I-94, or under I-94, or both.

[Dexlin]

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

[ndavies]

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

[Scottathew]

I still think that Woodward from the Detroit River to Pontiac is a great place to start with any transit project, especially a grade separated one. Build it so that stations can be added in the future. Watch the land around the stations become very valuable, and then the cities will be fighting for subway stations instead of rejecting mass transit.

[masterblaster]

It appears to me that you are quite a few years behind the times on who owns the rail in this area and what exactly the hinderances are and aren't.

No new construction is needed, first of all, because the state now owns the line from West Detroit Junction in Detroit all the way west to Kalamazoo. Not only that, but the state has has re-doubled the track between between Dearborn to Yspi and put millions of dollars into refurbishing it, primarily for Amtrak. There is barely any freight service on this line, anymore, so traffic is no longer an issue.

The literal only issue and hidderance left for the service is political will. Had the millage for the RTA that very narrowly failed in 2016 passed, the planned service between the city and the airport would have been nothing to get off the ground. The state bought the locomotives which we still have, and had the Republicans in the legislature not thrown a fit over our lease of the cars, we'd still have those, too. There is already permission to use this line, basically.

Let's not mislead people. A basic commuter service on Amtrak/MDOT's Michigan Line could be restarted practically tomorrow. No new rail, not even refurbishment of the existing rail needs to be done.

Finally somebody who is truly knowledgeable and understands what's going on. What is your opinion on a rail off-shoot from the existing "Amtrak" line to the Airport. There is a north-south running line that intersects the existing Amtrak line. This line is west of the Airport and is less than 1/2 mile from the Airport where it runs between Northline Rd and Eureka Rd.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/DT...!4d-83.3462026

If this line isn't feasible, do you have any suggestions on a direct rail link to/from Downtown Detroit?

[professorscott]

This is definitely not true. Bombardier still makes all of the people mover technology with the exception of the short people mover cars. The only reason you need the short cars is the tight turns downtown.

You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

[ndavies]

You are correct but missing a really critical detail. Ford still makes cars, so If I wanted them to make another six 1986 Taurus vehicles, that shouldn't be any problem for them, right?

Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

[Dexlin]

Yes, I know the short car won't ever be made again. I also wouldn't want people mover technology used for the new line. I was just trying to point out an overstatement in the previous post.

However, The new line could be designed with less tight turns and use longer train cars. Many systems have trains that can't be used on some of their lines.

I'm personally rather ambivalent about the expansion of the People Mover, but I think it's ridiclous to think that the cars couldn't be replicated by Bombardier, as if the Detroit People Mover doesn't have specs and plans in their office that could be worked off of. I imagine Bombardier would work with them if they ever wanted to expand the system with the exist rolling stock.

That'd be a helluva lot cheaper than having to re-engineer curves. At, quite frankly, so much of it is hemmed in it's why the curves exist in the first place, because there is literally no space have significantly softer ones.

[ndavies]

I'm personally rather ambivalent about the expansion of the People Mover, but I think it's ridiclous to think that the cars couldn't be replicated by Bombardier, as if the Detroit People Mover doesn't have specs and plans in their office that could be worked off of. I imagine Bombardier would work with them if they ever wanted to expand the system with the exist rolling stock.

That'd be a helluva lot cheaper than having to re-engineer curves. At, quite frankly, so much of it is hemmed in it's why the curves exist in the first place, because there is literally no space have significantly softer ones.

Nobody is talking about reengineering the current people mover. I was talking about the extension to the airport. This could be handled with the longer cars.

The current people mover cars will last far longer than you'll live.

Obviously You've never worked in a engineering/Production facility of vehicles. The costs to retool to build the short cars would be outrageous for the handful of units you'd build. It would price the short cars well above cost of the longer cars that are still in production.

[casscorridor]

Airport rail links, BTW, aren't that important, even in highly centralized world class cities with tons of visitors.

Business visitors aren't paying anyways, so tend to take the fastest, easiest path [[usually Uber). Same goes for families with children. Budget tourists are the only viable market, and they can be accommodated by really any connection, train or bus.

Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines. Gatwick has Thameslink and Gatwick express. Heathrow already has Picadilly Line and Heathrow Express and soon to be connected to the $20Billion Crossrail project. New developments along the line advertise their distance from the airport, and visitors will have a new incredibly efficient and modern way to get to central London. Yeah, really unimportant.

[leland_palmer]

Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines. Gatwick has Thameslink and Gatwick express. Heathrow already has Picadilly Line and Heathrow Express and soon to be connected to the $20Billion Crossrail project. New developments along the line advertise their distance from the airport, and visitors will have a new incredibly efficient and modern way to get to central London. Yeah, really unimportant.

Yes! Thameslink is vastly superior to taking the bus from Gatwick. Also it take about an hour to get from Heathrow to Central London via Picadilly. Heathrow Express was a vast improvement there as well.

[wolverine]

I’m going to call musk’s train, “Executive Transport”. I do believe it will be the ultimate choice of business travelers. At least here in Chicago for arrivals and departures in the loop it will likely account for the preferred method of travel over rideshare and private livery servies . It will also appeal to international tourists and locals with disposable income.

I’d travel to Detroit a lot more If they had ANY sort of rail to downtown. Otherwise, forget it. While the drive from Chicago isn’t terrible, its pretty marginal from a best use of time perspective of sitting in a car for a chunk of the weekend.

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

[Bham1982]

Okay, tell that to London's 6 airports, which have rail connections to each of them, some of them multiple different lines.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, as no one said "there should be no public transit links to major airport".

Re-read my previous comments. I wrote that such rail links aren't particularly important, which is true. They have low ridership, even in the Paris/London/NYC type cities, and are essentially irrelevant to overall transit ridership and regional mobility, which is why a region like ours shouldn't be wasting time discussing such a marginal issue.

The rail link to DeGaulle probably has the best conditions on earth for such a line [[#1 tourist city on the planet, probably best suburban rail system in world) yet the RER link to CDG only generates like 30k riders in a system that carries like 8 million daily rail passengers.

[Bham1982]

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

[Jason]

Most of the asian systems used one-off train designs made specifically for that project. They're aluminum boxes with LIMs and bogies ordered from other suppliers.

Bombardier seems to be the only one with heavy standardization [[the only reason their current Mark 3s are so long is because they standardized the bodies across several propulsion technologies). But for JFK they made unique wide versions to slightly increase capacity even though they had just come out with their new Mark 2s. If it was such a burden, they wouldn't have.


The only limiting factor to expanding the People Mover is the raw cost of elevated guideway.

[professorscott]

The only limiting factor to expanding the People Mover is the raw cost of elevated guideway.

That's one big factor, Jason, but there's one other: the FTA has no appetite for these types of systems nowadays, and it is very nearly impossible to build fixed-guideway transit without some of their dollars. Even the QLine, which was mostly privately funded, got some FTA money. Heavy rail over existing tracks with a spur to the airport is the only likely thing to happen, and that'll be a while. At least now, for the first time in my memory, there's reasonable bus service from Detroit to its airport.

[iheartthed]

I’m going to call musk’s train, “Executive Transport”. I do believe it will be the ultimate choice of business travelers. At least here in Chicago for arrivals and departures in the loop it will likely account for the preferred method of travel over rideshare and private livery servies . It will also appeal to international tourists and locals with disposable income.

I’d travel to Detroit a lot more If they had ANY sort of rail to downtown. Otherwise, forget it. While the drive from Chicago isn’t terrible, its pretty marginal from a best use of time perspective of sitting in a car for a chunk of the weekend.

Going to DTW to me is like being stranded in the desert. I’m so used to traveling to cities with easy and cheap access to downtown and the neighborhoods from the airport.

A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

These discussions about whether Detroit should spend on transit tend to be extremely flawed. If you own a house in Metro Detroit and you don't want it to be worthless in 20 years, you should be the biggest cheerleader of these transit projects, whether you live near it or not. Transit investment [[or lack of) is something that will benefit [[or not) a region for decades down the line. The effects of it will go on long after many of us have died.

A train link to DTW would permanently change the way people commute between the city and the airport. It's not what Detroit will look like next year, but more like what will Detroit be in 20-50 years. Detroit cannot remain a major city -- and Metro Detroit cannot remain a major metropolitan area -- if the region doesn't start spending on alternative modes of transportation.

[wolverine]

Yet you live in Chicago, with awful transit for a Western city of its caliber. The rundown EL runs in the middle of giant freeways, wider even than Detroit, or on rickety wood platforms, and the suburban rail lines generally have poor service and are 90% diesel. Poor Eastern European cities with 20% the population and 10% the economy have higher ridership.

People in Detroit drive. The 12 people who happen to insist upon a rail link to the airport as a precondition for gracing the region with their presence can safely be ignored.

It’s a treat to post this on the train commute home.

Exaggerate much? The majority of trains running began service in 2015. The oldest rolling stock is from the 90’s. [[Blue and brown lines) but will retire from service soon. The city is spending $40-$100 million to rebuild each station. So yeah you’ve probably seen some of our oldest that got character. And yeah it sucks metra is running diesel, but I’m happy I can get to any suburb at just about any hour.


Transit to the airport will make Detroit a more competitive global city. Transit to neighborhoods will make it a more livable and affordable city.

Not everyone wants to drive and if transit presents itself and is effective [[beyond a poorly designed LRT system) it can win a lot of new riders.

[Dexlin]

A train to DTW would certainly help, but I would visit Detroit more often if there were any mobility options available at all, besides cars. When I bring friends from out-of-town to visit Detroit they are in disbelief that the city has no train system.

Obviously, transit in the region is bad, bad, bad, but this is a bit of an exaggeration. SMART's "FAST" service which began in January while just a start, is still a limited-stop service between downtown and Metro. In fact, I've only heard good things about FAST's four limited-stop routes since it's started.

Yeah, we need more, but to say there is aren't "any mobility options available at all, besides cars" is incorrect and being overdramatic.

[Junjie]

Obviously any route that would serve the airport would almost assuredly use a major part of the Michigan Avenue corridor. Are we also acting like every trip on a route like this would be end-to-end? The idea that this would only serve business travelers seems like a very ignorant assumption.

Sorry, but you're the one blithely assuming. This entire thread was created in the context of Elon Musk's tunneling efforts. Given that, it is not at all "obvious" or "assured" that local transit would be included. Musk is talking about building a point-to-point airport express connection in Chicago to circumvent the existing Blue Line connection. Musk also notoriously hates public transit and has a bunch of ideas about "door-to-door mesh networks" that are complete fantasy. His Boring Company was literally founded to try to move private cars through tunnels on sleds so that he could avoid traffic but also not have to see poor people. Now he's slowly falling back to some sort of actual transit for his tunnels because he's discovering that the economics and geometry of transit don't change just because you're rich.

Given all of that, the fact that Duggan is fixating on this is really disappointing. He should be saying "If Musk can successfully lower tunneling costs, we will look into tunneling under Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River for high quality rapid transit." Not building airport express links to serve a tiny fraction of the populous, in imitation of a city that already has the type of local rapid transit Detroit totally lacks.