US-Canada Relations - Let's pull together, not apart

[Richard]

You often go on about this in different threads as if it were pertinent to the topic. It usually isn't.

I hasten to add you don't strike me as a globe trotter and I would be interested to see the list of developed countries you've entered w/o prior permission.

***

Be that as it may.......

If you really want to come visit, has it occurred to you to try and make that happen, rather than accept a denial some years ago?

This was what, a misdemeanor conviction, I assume, but one that is more serious in Canada.

You have a couple of options, asking for a pardon for the offense in the US.

As well as a couple of different waivers through Canada.

I can't recall if it was a DUI issue, but there is a discussion below that pertains to comparable offenses and outlines the process to obtain permission to enter Canada notwithstanding a conviction.

https://allcleared.com/blog/can-you-...da-with-a-dui/

Were your offense in Michigan, you might consider getting a pardon.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/c...e_330607_7.pdf

The process in Florida sounds more bothersome:

https://www.fcor.state.fl.us/clemencyOverview.shtml

You may still require permission to enter Canada even with a pardon, though not a bad idea to clear your record if you can.

Do you really think you know somebody from an ominous board? That is that supreme judgmental complex coming out again.

I was doing missions across the globe while you were still trying to get to first base in some back seat.

If you knew about traveling you would know that a flight to the UK is pretty cheap and from there and with a rental car you can travel all of Europe fairly reasonable even better if you have friends there.Only a passport is required.

From Florida I can visit pretty much every Latin American country via private or commercial planes.

Its 2018 where traveling is pretty common and not as awe inspiring as it was in 1920.Even a cave man can do it.

I have a Florida felony from 25 years ago and also have internet excess so yea I can also do my research.

It is understandable that Detroit has a special relationship with Canada and its proximity,but to the rest of the country,at a distance,Canada might as well be mars and they really know little about it.

[Canadian Visitor]

Do you really think you know somebody from an ominous board? That is that supreme judgmental complex coming out again.

I was doing missions across the globe while you were still trying to get to first base in some back seat.

If you knew about traveling you would know that a flight to the UK is pretty cheap and from there and with a rental car you can travel all of Europe fairly reasonable even better if you have friends there.Only a passport is required.

From Florida I can visit pretty much every Latin American country via private or commercial planes.

Its 2018 where traveling is pretty common and not as awe inspiring as it was in 1920.Even a cave man can do it.

I have a Florida felony from 25 years ago and also have internet excess so yea I can also do my research.

It is understandable that Detroit has a special relationship with Canada and its proximity,but to the rest of the country,at a distance,Canada might as well be mars and they really know little about it.

You know you could have just said Thank You. That would have sufficed.

Canadian Law changed in 2012, It occurred to me you might not know.

I hasten to add, UK law establishes a number of restrictions on admitting convicted criminals, as do most developed countries including the United States.

ps. I know plenty about traveling, including the UK, though I prefer to fly into Schiphol [[Amsterdam) for a lower-cost point of entry to base European travel. Nice, quiet airport vs Heathrow or De Gaulle.

[bust]

Richard, you didn't say you've traveled internationally except as a serviceman. Only that you easily "can".

First, hats off to the soldiers who honorably serve our country. You deserve our gratitude and respect, especially if you served during a time of war.

But maybe the following tidbit is illustrative of what kind of cultural experiences you're inclined to encounter as a young serviceman in a foreign country on leave. Or maybe not.

Some long time ago I was planning extended travels in Europe and came across a map the Navy produced to assist its sailors in Barcelona. I wish I saved it, because I kid you not: it highlighted little more than a dozen or so american fast food restaurants that existed there at the time, all in close proximity to tourist areas.

Where you've been counts a lot less if when you were there you couldn't speak the local language and spent most of your time drinking beers, chasing skirts, and eating at Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's not likely you picked up much of the true local flavor that way — neither literally nor figuratively. Even if you got lucky sometimes.

Maybe that doesn't characterize your experiences. Maybe you prepared by studying some history, learning some of the local language, and sought to widen your perspective while you were there. And you left your uniform and sailor hat on board.

Or if it does, that would be understandable. Expected, even. When a group of young sailors steps off a ship into a foreign port the social dynamics and practical limitations seem likely to lead to certain outcomes. At a certain age I probably would have followed along.

What have your international travels been like for you?

By the way, rarely do I find this to be an ominous board. There were a few nut jobs who reared their heads on occasion, but I haven't noticed them here in a while.

[canuck]

Do you really think you know somebody from an ominous board? That is that supreme judgmental complex coming out again.

I was doing missions across the globe while you were still trying to get to first base in some back seat.

If you knew about traveling you would know that a flight to the UK is pretty cheap and from there and with a rental car you can travel all of Europe fairly reasonable even better if you have friends there.Only a passport is required.

From Florida I can visit pretty much every Latin American country via private or commercial planes.

Its 2018 where traveling is pretty common and not as awe inspiring as it was in 1920.Even a cave man can do it.

I have a Florida felony from 25 years ago and also have internet excess so yea I can also do my research.

It is understandable that Detroit has a special relationship with Canada and its proximity,but to the rest of the country,at a distance,Canada might as well be mars and they really know little about it.

Guess what airline Rocket Man flew on to Singapore?

He flew on his own plane to Beijing and got to use the Chinese President's Air China One to Singapore and back to Beijing.

Guess who is calling the shots on this handshake?

China.

The US Navy will have a smaller presence in the region according to the letter. China will eventually move in and take advantage of NK's cheap labor and resources at its doorstep and increase its presence in South East Asia. Trump just brokered the perfect deal for Beijing. Japan and Taiwan will be more vulnerable to China's dominance than ever...

[Wesley Mouch]

Guess what airline Rocket Man flew on to Singapore?

He flew on his own plane to Beijing and got to use the Chinese President's Air China One to Singapore and back to Beijing.

Guess who is calling the shots on this handshake?

China.

The US Navy will have a smaller presence in the region according to the letter. China will eventually move in and take advantage of NK's cheap labor and resources at its doorstep and increase its presence in South East Asia. Trump just brokered the perfect deal for Beijing. Japan and Taiwan will be more vulnerable to China's dominance than ever...

The best deals are where everybody wins.

China was already in the driver's seat -- so what's the problem with them staying there. Its not like we are invading NK. In that case, we'd get the benefits.

What we did was put pressure on China to get NK into line. If they've done that, Great.

Before Trump started this, we had 20 years of nothingness. And NK was 99% of the way to being able to obliterate Seattle or Chicago. If Trump manages to actually get NK to back off in a concrete way -- that will be good enough for the USA. [[This is of course not certain yet, as NK has lied repeatedly.)

What I want to know is when will the sanctions be lifted. If its before they prove sometime, then the deal is a PR campaign. If its after Kim makes concrete steps, all the better.

I don't care if China wins, or if NK gets a major PR win.

[oladub]

Back to Canada where P.M. Trudeau has had a change of heart and decided to get tougher with Iran. He surprised some by reversing himself and taking a position more like Trump's. "the whole Liberal cabinet, followed by much of the caucus, stood up to vote in favour of the motion [[calling on the government to get tough on Iran) put forward by Conservative MP Garnett Genuis."

[archfan]

He brought the guy to the table and physically met with him,which no president has done sense the 1950s.

No president has met with a leader of N. Korea since the 1950s because a meeting legitimizes their government. Everything they have done was because they want to be a world player. Trump just granted their fondest wish.

[Meddle]

Everything I've seen says DonnieT gave in to Kim fully and completely, giving him everything he wanted at virtually no cost. Maybe also allowed NK's economy to prosper in a way it never has which will only make them a bigger threat in the future. DonnieT may have cost millions of future people their very lives.

Pulling back will also allow China to further expand into the South Pacific and threaten US interests like the Philippines and who knows, maybe even Guam and Wake.

Since China already essentially controls US banking and finance, DonnieT might as well raise the Five-star Red Flag over the White House.

[Meddle]

No president has met with a leader of N. Korea since the 1950s because a meeting legitimizes their government. Everything they have done was because they want to be a world player. Trump just granted their fondest wish.

Remember the vitriol over minor moves to reduce sanctions on Cuba, who never has been and never will be anywhere near the threat of NK?

[Richard]

No president has met with a leader of N. Korea since the 1950s because a meeting legitimizes their government. Everything they have done was because they want to be a world player. Trump just granted their fondest wish.

The thing is that they did not have in the past the capability that they have now,here is the timeline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...uclear_program

When a country has nuclear and potential hydrogen bomb deployment capability it kinda is in the best interest of millions of American,South Korean and Japanese citizens to come up with a workable solution,and kinda forces our hands when it comes to recognizing the legitimacy their government.

Personally I think it is hypocritical to say we do not recognize your government based on human rights issues but yet fill our houses with goods from China which is the same exact model.

So really the only time we have issues with human rights is when we are not profiting from it,which one is worse?

If you notice the G7 summit players are concerning North America and Europe and unless there is a case like Iran,outside of us they really have no involvement in Asia and Africa other then lending support in personal and ops but nothing game changing.

That leaves us to handle Asia and Africa on our own and the middle east and our allies in Europe and we wonder why our military budget is massive.Poland has offered up 3 billion in order for the US to establish a military base there as a deterrent.

That is what the president is talking about when it comes to the US funding everything.We cannot do it which is why we are seeing genocide spreading in Africa and Burma unchecked because China is making their presence known and would prefer to have control of Asia including the Philippines and their way of doing things is a bit different then ours.

I think their stance is more so letting each country fight themselves using any means necessary as long as they get their cut and their form of government matches their own.

I say the US but Canada is neck deep in it also,they just do not really seem to publicize it as much as we do.

We talk about our presidents rhetoric and how he speaks but when you look at it world wide,it is not really much different then everybody else.

France made their comments about how President Trump speaks but yet is going tit for tat with Italy doing the exact same thing with the immigrant situation.

[Richard]

Remember the vitriol over minor moves to reduce sanctions on Cuba, who never has been and never will be anywhere near the threat of NK?

Parking nuclear warheads 90 miles off of our coast in the middle of a cold war where drop duck and cover was standard procedure in our schools could probably be construed as a threat.

It was very real and serious to the people at the time.

[Richard]

Everything I've seen says DonnieT gave in to Kim fully and completely, giving him everything he wanted at virtually no cost. Maybe also allowed NK's economy to prosper in a way it never has which will only make them a bigger threat in the future. DonnieT may have cost millions of future people their very lives.

Pulling back will also allow China to further expand into the South Pacific and threaten US interests like the Philippines and who knows, maybe even Guam and Wake.

Since China already essentially controls US banking and finance, DonnieT might as well raise the Five-star Red Flag over the White House.

We as individuals gave China control,we as individuals raised the five star red flag over OUR country and continue to do so without a second thought,if we have a problem with that,then we need to change it instead of trying to place blame on others.

We sold out our country and fellow Americans over greed and unless we change it we have no right to bitch about it.

No US president held a gun to our head and forced us to make those decisions,we chose the dollar over everything and everybody else.

That is what MAGA is about,but we will do our best to spread the hatred against it and everything it stands for and then act surprised when our collage grads are sleeping in their parents basement at age 30 saddled with debt or our inner cites are loaded with people that will never have a chance.

Then we try to justify the higher moral ground with solutions like erase the debt instead of actually providing opportunity.

Until we decide we have had enough it is nobodies fault but our own and we will reap what we sow.

[Canadian Visitor]

Back to the subject.

From the NY Times, something closer to how the border can, sometimes does and should work between our countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/u...sa-border.html

Followed by a different take on the issue from the same publication, looking at the potential consequence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/o...&region=Footer

[jcole]

Lowell, I know you started this thread but it was an attempt to discuss US/Canadian relations. Can you please send Richard's "Defense of Trump" thread back to hell [[or non-Detroit) where it belongs. It's bad enough out of the mainstream, but it really doesn't belong here

[Richard]

Lowell, I know you started this thread but it was an attempt to discuss US/Canadian relations. Can you please send Richard's "Defense of Trump" thread back to hell [[or non-Detroit) where it belongs. It's bad enough out of the mainstream, but it really doesn't belong here

Nice contribution.

See what happens when we place emotions over reasoning when dealing with issues,the thread is exactly that,off and on discussing the outcome of knee jerk reactions and words spoken out of emotion that do not lead to solutions and the potential ramifications of.

The aspect of I do not like what you said so get out of my sandbox usualy does not fare well.

So what are your feelings or thoughts towards the exchange of rhetoric between the two leaders?

[jcole]

You are not dealing with relations between US/Canada. You are doing exactly what you do on Non-Detroit which is defend and spin whatever Trump does, so why does it need to be duplicated here?

Nice contribution.

See what happens when we place emotions over reasoning when dealing with issues,the thread is exactly that,off and on discussing the outcome of knee jerk reactions and words spoken out of emotion that do not lead to solutions and the potential ramifications of.

The aspect of I do not like what you said so get out of my sandbox usualy does not fare well.

So what are your feelings or thoughts towards the exchange of rhetoric between the two leaders?

[Richard]

Back to the subject.

From the NY Times, something closer to how the border can, sometimes does and should work between our countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/u...sa-border.html

Followed by a different take on the issue from the same publication, looking at the potential consequence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/o...&region=Footer

From your opinion link,

Longer term, and likely to our detriment, Canada is looking to reduce its dependence on American goods. It already has a free trade agreement with the European Union, for example, something the United States has failed to achieve. Canada also remains part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which Mr. Trump noisily rejected upon taking office. Even Canada’s oil — the country supplies 60 percent of the petroleum the United States now imports — could find more lucrative markets in Asia once needed pipelines are built.


So Canada was looking at scaling back on importation of American and once the pipeline was completed through our country the oil flowing through it was destined for Europe.

So in short and in the near future we can expect reduced trade and increased fuel costs with Canada holding the power to control it,is Canada then going to say,hey we like you guys so we are going to supply you with cheap oil and steel,lets face it at the end of the day it is a business and it will be run like one.

But yet hear we are,a bunch of jerks because we would like to prepare for the future and have the capabilities to continue in house production and not be subject to another countries demands subject to change at any given moment.

How is that different then any other country who wishes to be self sufficient should the need arise.Is Canada any different?

Politics is politics,it is the individuals choice on both sides weather or not to take it to the personal level when it does not need to be.

In the NY times link,the currant president did not enact the tougher border security laws,that was done after 9-11 under a different president so how is that being pushed as a detriment to the currant president?

[Honky Tonk]

You are not dealing with relations between US/Canada. You are doing exactly what you do on Non-Detroit which is defend and spin whatever Trump does, so why does it need to be duplicated here?

Honestly jcole, there's enough blame to go around, especially from some of the posters "visiting" this forum.

[jcole]

You are probably correct, but his are the posts that jump out at me.I had to double check that I wasn't actually ON non-Detroit.

Honestly jcole, there's enough blame to go around, especially from some of the posters "visiting" this forum.

[Richard]

You are not dealing with relations between US/Canada. You are doing exactly what you do on Non-Detroit which is defend and spin whatever Trump does, so why does it need to be duplicated here?

See that is where blind hatred overpowers.

I get it that you hate Trump,good for you,but you are confusing a nationalist as a Trump supporter,he is like any other politician ,a tool and a means to an end.

So the choice is either wallow in the hatred or use the tool for the betterment of the country,if you choose the path of hatred that is your choice,it does not resolve anything,but in this country it is your choice so why go on about others and their choices,we really do not have the right to quell others voices because we do not agree with them.

That would be in places like Cuba,and the ever so popular North Korea among others,although some seem to prefer that way of life.

You do understand Cause and effect and how everything relates?

[Lowell]

Let's get down to the facts for Detroit and Michigan. Dustin Walsh off Crains wrote and excellent article today explaining how a trade war with Canada has the potential be a disaster for us, right here Detroit.

Michigan and Canada are so economically intertwined, Michigan is often called Canada's 11th province.

Michigan imported $47.4 billion in products from Canada last year, representing 33.8 percent of all imports to the state, according to data from the U.S. Census Bureau. In turn, Canada imported $24.9 billion in goods from Michigan, or 41.6 percent of all of our exports.

While there is a clear disparity in the value of trade, it's important to look at the aforementioned percentages. Michigan companies rely on Canada for 41.6 percent of their exports. Canada is an absolutely critical market for Michigan companies.

Separated only by the Detroit River, Ontario is Michigan's closest trading partner by far. Michigan exports as much to Ontario as our next four largest trade partners put together — Mexico, China, Brazil and Germany. Toss in the buying power of the rest of Canada and you can add Japan, South Korea and Italy to that list.
...
These tariffs would raise the cost of cars by $5,000 to $7,000 on average. Our tariffs. Your pocketbook.

Trump seems preoccupied with trade balances and the U.S.'s deficits with its allies — though the U.S. runs a trade surplus for Canada. He's now turned his attention to Canada's tariffs on milk, tweeting, "Our Tariffs are in response to his of 270% on dairy!"

To his credit, Canada indeed has an exorbitant, protectionist tariff shrouding its milk industry.
...
Because of diminished demand — enter almond milk and reduced demand for dairy around the globe — the U.S. is stockpiling dairy products. The U.S. had more than 800 million pounds of American cheese in reserve last year, the most since 1984, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The amount of butter in reserve totals 272 million pounds, also the most since 1994, MarketWatch reported a year ago.

We produce so much milk that farmers in the Midwest and Northeast dumped, yes dumped, nearly 80 million gallons of milk into their own fields between January and March of last year, according to MarketWatch reporting.

In general, the subsides make our milk cheaper at the store.

[Richard]

Here it shows that the top 23 items exported to Canada from Michigan are automotive related.

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade...e/data/mi.html

I guess the question would be with US car companies revamping how and where production takes place and with the upcoming push of autonomous cars,how is that going to effect future trade in relation to the automotive aspect?

[Canadian Visitor]

Let's get down to the facts for Detroit and Michigan. Dustin Walsh off Crains wrote and excellent article today explaining how a trade war with Canada has the potential be a disaster for us, right here Detroit.

Michigan and Canada are so economically intertwined, Michigan is often called Canada's 11th province.

Michigan imported $47.4 billion in products from Canada last year, representing 33.8 percent of all imports to the state, according to data from the U.S. Census Bureau. In turn, Canada imported $24.9 billion in goods from Michigan, or 41.6 percent of all of our exports.

While there is a clear disparity in the value of trade, it's important to look at the aforementioned percentages. Michigan companies rely on Canada for 41.6 percent of their exports. Canada is an absolutely critical market for Michigan companies.

Separated only by the Detroit River, Ontario is Michigan's closest trading partner by far. Michigan exports as much to Ontario as our next four largest trade partners put together — Mexico, China, Brazil and Germany. Toss in the buying power of the rest of Canada and you can add Japan, South Korea and Italy to that list.
...
These tariffs would raise the cost of cars by $5,000 to $7,000 on average. Our tariffs. Your pocketbook.

Trump seems preoccupied with trade balances and the U.S.'s deficits with its allies — though the U.S. runs a trade surplus for Canada. He's now turned his attention to Canada's tariffs on milk, tweeting, "Our Tariffs are in response to his of 270% on dairy!"

To his credit, Canada indeed has an exorbitant, protectionist tariff shrouding its milk industry.
...
Because of diminished demand — enter almond milk and reduced demand for dairy around the globe — the U.S. is stockpiling dairy products. The U.S. had more than 800 million pounds of American cheese in reserve last year, the most since 1984, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The amount of butter in reserve totals 272 million pounds, also the most since 1994, MarketWatch reported a year ago.

We produce so much milk that farmers in the Midwest and Northeast dumped, yes dumped, nearly 80 million gallons of milk into their own fields between January and March of last year, according to MarketWatch reporting.

In general, the subsides make our milk cheaper at the store.

An Excellent, well balanced piece. Great Post, Lowell.

[3WC]

Richard, a couple of your comments are incorrect.

Canada has several pipelines coming into the U.S. The Keystone Pipeline, about which I presume you were referencing, was never meant to provide access to Europe or Asia; neither of those regions provide "more lucrative" markets. Oil is fungible.

However, not all crude oil is of the same quality or desirability, and therefore the price differs. The value of crude oil is based on its specific gravity, and therefore the number of gallons of gasoline that can be refined from a 42 gallon bbl of crude. The benchmark, worldwide quality of crude is based on West Texas Intermediate [[WTI), very high quality. Most of Canada's crude comes from their oil sands, and is considered low quality because it is "heavy" and therefore needs more costly refining. [[Saudi Arabia produces several qualities of crude oil and prices its oil on a "basket of crudes"; you buy some good with some lower quality and the price is therefore less than if one were buying a bbl of WTI.)

The cost of transporting bbl of crude is also a major factor in selling crude in a worldwide market. The farther it has to be transported and the number of times it has to be handled further influences its marketability to any given market.

Several years ago Marathon Oil Company paid $7 billion for a 20% interest in a Canadian oil sands producer. It was faced with the decision of building a refinery in Canada and sending the refined product to the U.S. or sending the crude to the U.S. [[Detroit) and refining it here. It chose the latter which was far more profitable. Then the idiots running Detroit gratuitously gave Marathon a multi-million dollar tax abatement [[$100 million?) to build an addition to its Detroit refinery to handle the harder-to-refine Canadian crude, even though Marathon was going to add on to its refinery anyway, without the tax incentive.

So, how does the tax revenue we pissed away to Marathon figure in the balance of payments question, if it does?

[Richard]

Richard, a couple of your comments are incorrect.

Canada has several pipelines coming into the U.S. The Keystone Pipeline, about which I presume you were referencing, was never meant to provide access to Europe or Asia; neither of those regions provide "more lucrative" markets. Oil is fungible.

However, not all crude oil is of the same quality or desirability, and therefore the price differs. The value of crude oil is based on its specific gravity, and therefore the number of gallons of gasoline that can be refined from a 42 gallon bbl of crude. The benchmark, worldwide quality of crude is based on West Texas Intermediate [[WTI), very high quality. Most of Canada's crude comes from their oil sands, and is considered low quality because it is "heavy" and therefore needs more costly refining. [[Saudi Arabia produces several qualities of crude oil and prices its oil on a "basket of crudes"; you buy some good with some lower quality and the price is therefore less than if one were buying a bbl of WTI.)

The cost of transporting bbl of crude is also a major factor in selling crude in a worldwide market. The farther it has to be transported and the number of times it has to be handled further influences its marketability to any given market.

Several years ago Marathon Oil Company paid $7 billion for a 20% interest in a Canadian oil sands producer. It was faced with the decision of building a refinery in Canada and sending the refined product to the U.S. or sending the crude to the U.S. [[Detroit) and refining it here. It chose the latter which was far more profitable. Then the idiots running Detroit gratuitously gave Marathon a multi-million dollar tax abatement [[$100 million?) to build an addition to its Detroit refinery to handle the harder-to-refine Canadian crude, even though Marathon was going to add on to its refinery anyway, without the tax incentive.

So, how does the tax revenue we pissed away to Marathon figure in the balance of payments question, if it does?

The first paragraph of my reply was a copy and paste of the opinion link that was posted earlier.

I am not bothered,I paid 3.46.9 a gallon yesterday and our prices have been going up 10c a week so I would expect to be back at or near the $4 mark by fall again,which will in return kick back in our oil shands production.

At any rate,it was and is more so about being proactive verses reactive and having options to what the future may hold,it may be sunny today but it may rain tomorrow,so is it better to carry the rain coat to the car now or wait until it is raining.