Ontario turns right?

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
That said, I fully agree the inter provincial restrictions are silly at best.

You should know the SCOC thinks so too, the reason it upheld the conviction was a concern that reading the constitution the other way [[absolute free trade between provinces) could cause enormous disruption to other programs/agencies ec.

Supply management was a particular concern.
...snip..

You gloss over this idea of Supply Management. If you really want to get sick to your stomach over what it really means, read the wikipedia entry.

Its basically a cartel. It abuses all Canadians, with high prices that go right into the pockets of politically connected farmers:

Supply management is considered to be one of the most powerful lobbies in Canada by supporters and critics alike.[21]However, critics have pointed out that their tactics are similar to the NRA , a pretty influential lobby in the USA, by using propaganda and fear-mongering to push the interests of a small group of highly motivated actors at the expense of overall national well-being. It has been reported that the supporters spends about $120 million per year on public ad campaigns and political lobbying.

Here's why I'm putting focus on this. Canada is crying about NAFTA. Poor Canada. Why are you torturing us?

Here's part of the why. Canada has a protected dairy and poultry market.

In addition to import quotas, foreign producers face tariffs on their products, that range from 168% for eggs, up to 285% for chicken, 246% for cheese and over 300% for butter. These high tariffs hamper imports in the general food market.

300% butter tariff. Is that free trade? It was negotiated into NAFTA, because the rich dairy farmers want to keep screwing Canadian consumers, and keep our more efficient US producers.

So here's a solid example of what Canada is doing that Trump doesn't like. The current battle has something to do with milk solids of some sort that I think Wisconsin wants to ship north, but the evil cartel north of the border has recategorized in some way to make sure its taxes [[tariffed) and US producers are stopped from providing Canadian citizens with products at fair prices.

In case you think the US unfairly subsidizes its farmers, here's from the same article:

The OECD estimates the subsidy equivalent in 2012 [[producer support estimate) paid to all of Canadian agriculture as 18% of the value of the industry; a majority of this goes to the supply managed sectors although they account for only a small part of Canadian agriculture, meaning that the supply managed sectors have a much higher effective subsidy. In the European Union, the effective subsidies are 27%, with the United States at 10%, Australia [[6%), New Zealand [[1%), Brazil [[6%), and China at 9%.[4]

Not in the article, but I have read that the typical average low-income Canadian family pays $300-500 / year more than they would without 'Supply Management', just to appease rich farmers that write cheques.

So if you want a fair NAFTA, Canada... you can start by stopping this absurd subsidy to the rich today.

Until then, this pro-free-trade American says 'Go Donald'.

[Canadian Visitor]

You gloss over this idea of Supply Management. If you really want to get sick to your stomach over what it really means, read the wikipedia entry.

Its basically a cartel. It abuses all Canadians, with high prices that go right into the pockets of politically connected farmers:

Here's why I'm putting focus on this. Canada is crying about NAFTA. Poor Canada. Why are you torturing us?

Here's part of the why. Canada has a protected dairy and poultry market.

300% butter tariff. Is that free trade? It was negotiated into NAFTA, because the rich dairy farmers want to keep screwing Canadian consumers, and keep our more efficient US producers.

So here's a solid example of what Canada is doing that Trump doesn't like. The current battle has something to do with milk solids of some sort that I think Wisconsin wants to ship north, but the evil cartel north of the border has recategorized in some way to make sure its taxes [[tariffed) and US producers are stopped from providing Canadian citizens with products at fair prices.

In case you think the US unfairly subsidizes its farmers, here's from the same article:

Not in the article, but I have read that the typical average low-income Canadian family pays $300-500 / year more than they would without 'Supply Management', just to appease rich farmers that write cheques.

So if you want a fair NAFTA, Canada... you can start by stopping this absurd subsidy to the rich today.

Until then, this pro-free-trade American says 'Go Donald'.

First, you're wandering well away from the topic of this thread, I was simply answering a question.

If you want to discuss agricultural subsidies we can do so in a different thread.

That said, I will reply here and say your information is wrong.

US Dairy subsidies are vastly higher than that, as are EU subsidies for tiny little dairy farms that would be laughable in Canada.

https://www.realagriculture.com/2018...ys-new-report/

Canada also provides no direct subsidies to milk production, supply management was the alternative way to keep the industry viable [[as opposed to the EU/US way of cutting cheques to farmers).

It is a cartel system, no denying that.

Which is, overall, highly popular w/Canadians, and seen as a superior alternative to direct subsidies, which would come from taxes.

But yes, it does raise prices.

Speaking strictly of milk, the price here would be in the range of $5.99 for 4L.

The difference in butter is a bit more w/store-brands in the range of $3.99 a pound to name-brand cultured butters at $5.99.

Its also worth saying that at the time the original FTA was negotiated subsidies were higher in real terms than they are today, and the Canadian industry would have been decimated or we would have been looking at 5B in annual government subsidies to match US levels.

Subsidies have come off a bit since then.

There is another issue in dairy, pork and chicken which is the US allows growth hormones; Canada does not.

That's one reason excluding most US dairy is seen as desirable. US food product is seen as suspect in these categories.

Canada does allow hormones in beef cattle precisely because the industry is integrated w/the US one. That actually caused enormous headaches during the Canada-EU free trade talks, because the Europeans don't allow hormones in their beef cattle, and we had to create an independent supply chain for export to Europe to gain access to the market.

***

The actual average dairy farmer isn't rich; they may have money on paper because they own 'quota' but that's like saying a taxi driver is rich because they own a hack license.

If someone has enough quota then yes, they've made out well, but those cases are relatively few as its very capital intensive to amass large amounts.

***

I happen to support reforming supply management, and in fact don't oppose getting rid of it all together, subject to the following:

1) All agricultural subsidies everywhere are reduced to zero
2) All growth hormones are banned in meat/dairy animals, as are prophylactic antibiotics.
3) There is full food traceability
4) There are full information consumer labels on all meat/eggs/dairy as in Europe. [[cow breed, cow's birth date and location, cow feed, where the cow was raised, when/where it was slaughtered) .

Of course, if you remove all subsides from the US market, including the diversion of the Colorodo River to irrigated So-Cal's dessert lands.....The US industry isn't all that competitive. Canada has more cheap grazing land and more fresh water.

But I still favour reforming supply management because it does force up some costs arbitrarily relative to others, notably really good European cheeses are way overpriced, Reggiano costs $50.00 per kg or $110 a pound. I usually find it for 1/2 that. But still, that's silly.

Also the system really over prices organics, Organic Butter runs $10 a pound for no good reason.

But convince your government to come to the table w/ethical agricultural policies I'm sure an arrangement could be reached.

Back to Ontario politics? LOL