Ontario turns right?

[Wesley Mouch]

While I agree with widening distribution and increasing convenience, I find the above description a bit rich.

Thanks.

The majority of LCBO [[gov't owned liquor store) staff are part-time, and make minimum wage or slightly above. I asked staff in my nearby store, they said there were 2 FT staff excluding the manager, and there were 22 PT staff.
...

So the 'good jobs' aspect of alcohol retailing is a scam. But still 2 x 1000+ jobs does explain the NDP's need to scream 'no sales in corner stores' from rooftops.

And of course those PT staff still pay dues.

But thanks for the info.

...
Also the notion that this is all that inconvenient is a bit much, There 650 LCBOs give or take a few, another 220 privately owned wine stores, another 500 plus Beer Stores, you can also buy Ontario Wine/Beer/Cider at any Farmer's market and and at about 150 grocery stores.

Maybe a bit much. But for a province the size of Ontario 1,500+ outlets stores is not great coverage.[[I trust Ontario has some rural agencies, like other provinces? But I don't know that.

Michigan, meanwhile, has a 280 page list of retailers. At 40 a page, that's more like 10,000 outlets in a smaller economy [[true?).

So Michigan has 10 times as many retail outlets.

...The LCBOs, by and large are attractive stores to shop in, with good selection. They also contribute 1.6B in net profit to the government above and beyond alcohol taxes.

True. They should be at double US prices. The experience of my Canadian friends [[also in other provinces) is that selection of products is not so good if you're not in Toronto [[or Vancouver). Stores in smaller towns sell big hits, and won't carry wine that can't be retailed in massive quantities. I haven't shopped LCBO in a couple years, and then not deeply, so this is just a story.

All that said, I favour getting rid of the Beer Store [[private monopoly) and allowing wider retail distribution; I do favour wider distribution of wines as well. I'm a little more dubious on hard liquor products, but have an open mind.

I didn't even mention your absurd province-to-province restrictions. When was the last time the FBI setup a sting to catch Michiganders bringing Alcohol over from Wisconsin. The RCMP did. And fine a man for bringing a truck full of personal-use liquor across the NB provincial border. I believe your stellar Supreme Court upheld the conviction. Maybe good reading of the law, but overall a travesty of justice for individuals.

But I'm not trying to go full Trump here. Just have a discussion on some things Americans don't know about Canadians.

I say this because I have a friend from down south, who moved to Detroit -- and has NEVER been to Windsor in 10 years of living downtown. Trump's insults of late are front-page news in Canada. The NYTimes had a text link well below the fold. We are an ignorant country sometimes. Canada is a great country, That they have organized some gov't functions differently isn't necessary bad. Health Care for one is so much better overall.

...all about taxes...

Thanks for the info. Not consistent with my understanding. But I'll read more. I hear lots of media about high corporate taxation rates -- but maybe that's just political posturing.

Overall, again, I want to express how much I like Canada, and respect the country and people. Thanks for the debate.

[Canadian Visitor]

Thanks.

Maybe a bit much. But for a province the size of Ontario 1,500+ outlets stores is not great coverage.[[I trust Ontario has some rural agencies, like other provinces? But I don't know that......

Ontario does have a agency stores.

Michigan, meanwhile, has a 280 page list of retailers. At 40 page, that's more like 10,000 outlets in a smaller economy [[true?).

I'm uncertain of the number of retail points in Michigan, [[were you googling?) I think that number sounds high, but that's of no real concern.

I would certainly expect the number in Michigan is much higher, as noted I support broadening distribution in Ontario.

I don't expect we'd ever get a number of stores similar to Michigan, Ontario has fewer stores of all types [[# of outlets, not variety) the US really has too much in the way of retail square footage.

True. They should be at double US prices. The experience of my Canadian friends [[also in other provinces) is that selection of products is not so good if you're not in Toronto [[or Vancouver). Stores in smaller towns sell big hits, and won't carry wine that can't be retailed in massive quantities. I haven't shopped LCBO in a couple years, and then not deeply, so this is just a story.

Prices on wine are not double for the vast majority of product.

In fact, a surprising number are cheaper at the higher end.

Do keep in mind he LCBO is the largest wine buyer on the planet.

I just compared a bottle online at a Michigan Store.

Domaine Sylvain Langoureau

$35US at the wine store in MI, $42Cdn at the LCBO

That's cheaper at the LCBO adjusted for currency. LCBO price is all tax inclusive as well.Where one could fairly critique pricing in Ontario is at the lower end, as LCBO sets a floor price below which it will not sell, no matter how cheap the product is to them to buy.

In the case of 750ml wine that's $7.95cdn or $6.15usd

The LCBO also doesn't do volume discounts and it doesn't sell wholesale [[restaurants buying a wine for resale pay the retail price, unless they exclusive import the product through the LCBO).

Beer prices, however, are much higher.

A typical 473ml can [[tall boy) runs about $2.60 w/the cheap swill going for about $2 per can and premium imports 3'ish.

So a range of $1.60USD to about $2.40USD per can.

That is rather excessive.

I also support opening a wholesale market to restaurants.

***

As to selection, the LCBO near me is 12,000sq ft, the largest in Toronto, the flagship store is 31,000 sq ft.

So selection can be quite deep.

Certainly this is not the case in terms of whats on the shelf in smaller stores.

However, anyone one can request a transfer of a bottle they want to their local store at no cost.

The LCBO's ordering database has 30,000 products in it.

I didn't even mention your absurd province-to-province restrictions. When was the last time the FBI setup a sting to catch Michiganders bringing Alcohol over from Wisconsin. The RCMP did. And fine a man for bringing a truck full of personal-use liquor across the NB provincial border. I believe your stellar Supreme Court upheld the conviction. Maybe good reading of the law, but overall a travesty of justice for individuals.

First it needs to be said that case the 'Comeau' case is incredibly rare, happened in nowheresville NB, never heard of it happening before or since, anywhere else.

That said, I fully agree the inter provincial restrictions are silly at best.

You should know the SCOC thinks so too, the reason it upheld the conviction was a concern that reading the constitution the other way [[absolute free trade between provinces) could cause enormous disruption to other programs/agencies ec.

Supply management was a particular concern.

So was the revenue side for governments, particularly smaller ones, such as New Brunswick where taxes are already higher than in Ontario and the economy less robust.

I don't agree w/their decision or the restriction, but I do understand their reasoning that they did not want to open one very large can of worms over a ticket for for a few cases of beer.

I say this because I have a friend from down south, who moved to Detroit -- and has NEVER been to Windsor in 10 years of living downtown. Trump's insults of late are front-page news in Canada. The NYTimes had a text link well below the fold. We are an ignorant country sometimes. Canada is a great country, That they have organized some gov't functions differently isn't necessary bad. Health Care for one is so much better overall.

Overall, again, I want to express how much I like Canada, and respect the country and people. Thanks for the debate.

Your welcome and your sentiment is much appreciated.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
That said, I fully agree the inter provincial restrictions are silly at best.

You should know the SCOC thinks so too, the reason it upheld the conviction was a concern that reading the constitution the other way [[absolute free trade between provinces) could cause enormous disruption to other programs/agencies ec.

Supply management was a particular concern.
...snip..

You gloss over this idea of Supply Management. If you really want to get sick to your stomach over what it really means, read the wikipedia entry.

Its basically a cartel. It abuses all Canadians, with high prices that go right into the pockets of politically connected farmers:

Supply management is considered to be one of the most powerful lobbies in Canada by supporters and critics alike.[21]However, critics have pointed out that their tactics are similar to the NRA , a pretty influential lobby in the USA, by using propaganda and fear-mongering to push the interests of a small group of highly motivated actors at the expense of overall national well-being. It has been reported that the supporters spends about $120 million per year on public ad campaigns and political lobbying.

Here's why I'm putting focus on this. Canada is crying about NAFTA. Poor Canada. Why are you torturing us?

Here's part of the why. Canada has a protected dairy and poultry market.

In addition to import quotas, foreign producers face tariffs on their products, that range from 168% for eggs, up to 285% for chicken, 246% for cheese and over 300% for butter. These high tariffs hamper imports in the general food market.

300% butter tariff. Is that free trade? It was negotiated into NAFTA, because the rich dairy farmers want to keep screwing Canadian consumers, and keep our more efficient US producers.

So here's a solid example of what Canada is doing that Trump doesn't like. The current battle has something to do with milk solids of some sort that I think Wisconsin wants to ship north, but the evil cartel north of the border has recategorized in some way to make sure its taxes [[tariffed) and US producers are stopped from providing Canadian citizens with products at fair prices.

In case you think the US unfairly subsidizes its farmers, here's from the same article:

The OECD estimates the subsidy equivalent in 2012 [[producer support estimate) paid to all of Canadian agriculture as 18% of the value of the industry; a majority of this goes to the supply managed sectors although they account for only a small part of Canadian agriculture, meaning that the supply managed sectors have a much higher effective subsidy. In the European Union, the effective subsidies are 27%, with the United States at 10%, Australia [[6%), New Zealand [[1%), Brazil [[6%), and China at 9%.[4]

Not in the article, but I have read that the typical average low-income Canadian family pays $300-500 / year more than they would without 'Supply Management', just to appease rich farmers that write cheques.

So if you want a fair NAFTA, Canada... you can start by stopping this absurd subsidy to the rich today.

Until then, this pro-free-trade American says 'Go Donald'.

[Canadian Visitor]

You gloss over this idea of Supply Management. If you really want to get sick to your stomach over what it really means, read the wikipedia entry.

Its basically a cartel. It abuses all Canadians, with high prices that go right into the pockets of politically connected farmers:

Here's why I'm putting focus on this. Canada is crying about NAFTA. Poor Canada. Why are you torturing us?

Here's part of the why. Canada has a protected dairy and poultry market.

300% butter tariff. Is that free trade? It was negotiated into NAFTA, because the rich dairy farmers want to keep screwing Canadian consumers, and keep our more efficient US producers.

So here's a solid example of what Canada is doing that Trump doesn't like. The current battle has something to do with milk solids of some sort that I think Wisconsin wants to ship north, but the evil cartel north of the border has recategorized in some way to make sure its taxes [[tariffed) and US producers are stopped from providing Canadian citizens with products at fair prices.

In case you think the US unfairly subsidizes its farmers, here's from the same article:

Not in the article, but I have read that the typical average low-income Canadian family pays $300-500 / year more than they would without 'Supply Management', just to appease rich farmers that write cheques.

So if you want a fair NAFTA, Canada... you can start by stopping this absurd subsidy to the rich today.

Until then, this pro-free-trade American says 'Go Donald'.

First, you're wandering well away from the topic of this thread, I was simply answering a question.

If you want to discuss agricultural subsidies we can do so in a different thread.

That said, I will reply here and say your information is wrong.

US Dairy subsidies are vastly higher than that, as are EU subsidies for tiny little dairy farms that would be laughable in Canada.

https://www.realagriculture.com/2018...ys-new-report/

Canada also provides no direct subsidies to milk production, supply management was the alternative way to keep the industry viable [[as opposed to the EU/US way of cutting cheques to farmers).

It is a cartel system, no denying that.

Which is, overall, highly popular w/Canadians, and seen as a superior alternative to direct subsidies, which would come from taxes.

But yes, it does raise prices.

Speaking strictly of milk, the price here would be in the range of $5.99 for 4L.

The difference in butter is a bit more w/store-brands in the range of $3.99 a pound to name-brand cultured butters at $5.99.

Its also worth saying that at the time the original FTA was negotiated subsidies were higher in real terms than they are today, and the Canadian industry would have been decimated or we would have been looking at 5B in annual government subsidies to match US levels.

Subsidies have come off a bit since then.

There is another issue in dairy, pork and chicken which is the US allows growth hormones; Canada does not.

That's one reason excluding most US dairy is seen as desirable. US food product is seen as suspect in these categories.

Canada does allow hormones in beef cattle precisely because the industry is integrated w/the US one. That actually caused enormous headaches during the Canada-EU free trade talks, because the Europeans don't allow hormones in their beef cattle, and we had to create an independent supply chain for export to Europe to gain access to the market.

***

The actual average dairy farmer isn't rich; they may have money on paper because they own 'quota' but that's like saying a taxi driver is rich because they own a hack license.

If someone has enough quota then yes, they've made out well, but those cases are relatively few as its very capital intensive to amass large amounts.

***

I happen to support reforming supply management, and in fact don't oppose getting rid of it all together, subject to the following:

1) All agricultural subsidies everywhere are reduced to zero
2) All growth hormones are banned in meat/dairy animals, as are prophylactic antibiotics.
3) There is full food traceability
4) There are full information consumer labels on all meat/eggs/dairy as in Europe. [[cow breed, cow's birth date and location, cow feed, where the cow was raised, when/where it was slaughtered) .

Of course, if you remove all subsides from the US market, including the diversion of the Colorodo River to irrigated So-Cal's dessert lands.....The US industry isn't all that competitive. Canada has more cheap grazing land and more fresh water.

But I still favour reforming supply management because it does force up some costs arbitrarily relative to others, notably really good European cheeses are way overpriced, Reggiano costs $50.00 per kg or $110 a pound. I usually find it for 1/2 that. But still, that's silly.

Also the system really over prices organics, Organic Butter runs $10 a pound for no good reason.

But convince your government to come to the table w/ethical agricultural policies I'm sure an arrangement could be reached.

Back to Ontario politics? LOL